Do the Popes and "the Saints" go to Heaven 100%?

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 1:41am #1

The question of saints in Christianity (and popes):

Do they go to Heaven no problem, just like that? I know that to proclaim somebody a saint is a long process, but what if "the so-called" proofs are just devil's trick?? Or what if they have nothing to do with that particular person?

For instance, some people are praying to so-called saints. After certain period of time or immediately - it doesn't really matter - the wish comes true. But how to prove that "the invoked saint" had anything to do with it??

How exactly can it be proved that somebody is a saint?
Also, what if, just what if, some or all or just one saint is burning in Hell or is doomed to be burning in Hell? Would that not prove (well prove is a tough word here - maybe even indicate is not the right word), but let's assume we use the word prove) that the whole process of making somebody a saint is false?

Is making somebody a saint supported by the Bible or not?

Victor · 31-10-2006 1:49am

"Do the Popes and "the Saints" go to Heaven 100%?" - I would say no. Making people Popes and Saints is an action of man, not God. Man does not necessarily know the inner sins of another man.

JustHalf · 31-10-2006 1:59am

All saints go to heaven (though if All Saints go to heaven, one hopes that only Melanie Blatt and Shaznay Lewis are allowed to sing).

Now, whether a Roman Catholic Official Authorised Saint is in fact a saint is a different story

You should read this, it's interesting reading of the different traditions of what a saint is considered to be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint

admiralofthefleet · 31-10-2006 2:02am

i agree with victor. the catholic cult created saints, priests, nuns, bishops, cardinals, and the pope,etc.
there is no reference in the bible to saints or a 'pope' for that matter, man created saints and not god, so therefore i believe that they do not go to heaven unless the have accepted jesus, if the 'pope' has not accepted jesus then he too goes to hell too.

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 2:11am

Victor wrote:

"Do the Popes and "the Saints" go to Heaven 100%?" - I would say no. Making people Popes and Saints is an action of man, not God. Man does not necessarily know the inner sins of another man.

I agree with you that making Popes and Saints is actually an action of man. There's always a chance that i.e. a pope is a non-believer - he might be pretending to believe in God, right? One can i.e. deceive people, but no one can deceive God.

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 2:26am

admiralgar wrote:

i agree with victor. the catholic cult created saints, priests, nuns, bishops, cardinals, and the pope,etc.
there is no reference in the bible to saints or a 'pope' for that matter, man created saints and not god, so therefore i believe that they do not go to heaven unless the have accepted jesus, if the 'pope' has not accepted jesus then he too goes to hell too.

Does "accepting Jesus" mean your deeds do not count?
If that is so, why is there a purgatory? If supposed Jesus' crucifixion wiped out all the sins, then why purgatory?

Wibbs · 31-10-2006 9:52am

As far as I was aware purgatory was an invention of the Catholic church like limbo. Neither are in the original texts. I can't remember the exact reasons for it's invention so can't help there I'm afraid. I suspect it was the usual filling in of the gaps type of thing and it made the church a fair few quid from indulgences to boot.

As fair as deeds go, I think the Christian thinking is that in order to accept Jesus one's deeds must accordingly change for the better. Otherwise you haven't truly accepted Him. One follows the other. Death bed conversions I'm not sure of the theology, but I think the story of the thief crucified with Jesus who repents is much of the basis for that. The principle that God knows one's heart and all that.

robindch · 31-10-2006 10:06am

> I think the Christian thinking is that...

Different variations of christianity believe different things: traditional catholics have to believe that accepting the "truth" of the church is something like the entrance ticket to eternal life, but better seats can be had by doing good works. Good works on their own aren't enough (though I seem to remember that the church of England changed its opinion on this a few years back). Modern protestant variations are more popular because you just have to believe something (or you have to believe that you believe it), in order for eternal life to be granted -- good works are not required. In fact, if you take a look at the creationism thread, you'll see that JC for example, says somewhere or other that he'd happily stand by and watch his family be executed rather than declare his religion false. Not much sign of good works there

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 12:38pm

robindch wrote:

> I think the Christian thinking is that...

Different variations of christianity believe different things: traditional catholics have to believe that accepting the "truth" of the church is something like the entrance ticket to eternal life, but better seats can be had by doing good works. Good works on their own aren't enough (though I seem to remember that the church of England changed its opinion on this a few years back). Modern protestant variations are more popular because you just have to believe something (or you have to believe that you believe it), in order for eternal life to be granted -- good works are not required. In fact, if you take a look at the creationism thread, you'll see that JC for example, says somewhere or other that he'd happily stand by and watch his family be executed rather than declare his religion false. Not much sign of good works there

If we presume that only belief in Jesus is required to go to Heaven, then this raises a few more Qs:

1. How can somebody enter Paradise if they (in this life) i.e. raped and slaughtered a young girl for instance (just because belief in Jesus is present in murderer) and that murderer never repents, where is here justice for this girl??
2. Would that not suggest that either one of the two is correct:
a. - God is not just for everyone and not always?
b. - The belief that somebody can enter Paradise just having the belief and not doing good works, and even doing evil things - does that not suggest that this theory/belief hold no water??

hairyheretic · 31-10-2006 1:01pm

Considering the activities some of the popes, especially those in the middle ages, got up to, I'd say a definate no.

Saints I can't really comment on, as I'm not familiar with the storys of many of them.

mountainyman · 31-10-2006 1:19pm

Saints are in heaven already. The canonisation process recognises saints it does not create them.
Popes go to heaven if they have accepted Christ.

Purgatory is a place of further purification while we await heaven. If you really loved God you wouldn't want to take your sins to heaven with you.
I love God, do you?

MM

mountainyman · 31-10-2006 1:22pm

T-1111111111111 wrote:

1. How can somebody enter Paradise if they (in this life) i.e. raped and slaughtered a young girl for instance (just because belief in Jesus is present in murderer) and that murderer never repents, where is here justice for this girl??

Repentance and awareness of sin are ncessary elements of accepting Jesus Christ. Your question is intellectually dishonest.

That's a funny example for a Muslim to use by the way, didn't Muhammad have a six year old wife?

MM

robindch · 31-10-2006 1:22pm

> If we presume that only belief in Jesus is required to go to Heaven, then this raises a few more Qs:

You'll have to find somebody who believes this in order to explain how the implications work out. All I'm doing is saying what they believe, not saying that it leads anywhere in particular.

btw, you don't happen to post under the name babyvaio, by any chance do you?

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 1:27pm

mountainyman wrote:

Repentance and awareness of sin are ncessary elements of accepting Jesus Christ. Your question is intellectually dishonest.

That's a funny example for a Muslim to use by the way, didn't Muhammad have a six year old wife?

MM

This is not Islamic subforum. Ask your questions about Islam in Islamic forum, if you don't mind. I also would like this thread not to deviate from its original subject.

Regarding your 1st sentence - my question is technically and logically correct. From reading many Christian posts here I think many have the belief that one does not have to perform, to do good deeds, but only the belief is enough. Then why is it that my question would be tellectually dishonest, if many nowadays Christians indeed believe so??

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 1:28pm

robindch wrote:

>
btw, you don't happen to post under the name babyvaio, by any chance do you?

I know the guy - he's my twin brother in one way.

MOGSA · 31-10-2006 1:33pm

Would it not be possible for some of you to read what has already been discussed and presented in the form of baselines?

Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfsbane
I'm pretty sure you are right. Roman Catholicism views the saints and Mary as mediators between God and man; the faithful pray to them to get them to pray to God on their behalf. It at least presupposes the saints and Mary have divine powers, in that they are able to hear the prayers of so many people all at once.

This is one of the reasons Evangelical Christianity has regarded Roman Catholicism as fundamentally in error. The New Testament explicitly teaches that there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.

While we may ask other Christians to pray for us, we have to pray directly to God for all our needs. We are not to think of our prayer partners as intermediaries, some one who can speak on our behalf to a God unwilling to hear us.

Even the whole concept of saints is distorted in Catholicism. According to the New Testament, every Christian is a saint. One becomes a saint the moment one believes.

Finally, the place given to Mary is entirely without Biblical warrant. She was blessed among women by being given the privilege of bearing the Messiah. She was not given any spiritual role in the church beyond that of any other Christian woman. Like them, she would have been forbidden to teach or exercise authority.
Quite correct. Because most of us do not read our bibles with guidance from the Holy Spirit, we are unaware that the dead in Christ have yet to rise, including Mary. So to worship someone who has yet to rise spiritually, unlike the Lord Jesus, is like talking to your cheese in the fridge.

There is the joke about the Portuguese man who sat next to a priest in plain clothes on a flight. When asked, the priest declared that he worked for Jesus. The ‘porra’ was delighted and stated that he also worked for Jesus, ‘Melrose Cheeses!’

Do not have a bad cheeses day!

Who has risen? When will this take place?
1Th: 4:13-16

‘But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.’
‘For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him..’
‘For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep..’
‘For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:’

And as Wolfsbane points out in John 6:44-45 :

‘No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

We, the children of God, are the saints, raised by God, not some satanic entity that claims authority:

Revelation 14:12

‘Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.’

It is not the 'last days' therefore you can hold off praying through us for a little while longer please!

Wibbs · 31-10-2006 1:41pm

T-1111111111111 wrote:

1. How can somebody enter Paradise if they (in this life) i.e. raped and slaughtered a young girl for instance (just because belief in Jesus is present in murderer) and that murderer never repents, where is here justice for this girl??

As mountainyman said; "Repentance and awareness of sin are ncessary elements of accepting Jesus Christ" .That's the point though, in order to truly believe in Jesus, they would have to repent. If not the belief wouldn't be true.The Christian types can further correct me if I'm wrong. TBH, I would have to agree with T-111111111 if that wasn't the belief.

mountainyman wrote:

Purgatory is a place of further purification while we await heaven.

Further to my first post on this, where's the reasoning from religious texts to back up this whole Purgatory notion. Don't seem to remember Jesus making mention of it. Is it not just a Catholic tradition?

BrianCalgary · 31-10-2006 4:04pm

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Does "accepting Jesus" mean your deeds do not count??

Correct.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

If that is so, why is there a purgatory? If supposed Jesus' crucifixion wiped out all the sins, then why purgatory?

Purgatory is not Biblical and is a creation of the Catholic church. It does not exist.

BrianCalgary · 31-10-2006 4:16pm

T-1111111111111. if a man rapes and murders someone, then repents and asks forgiveness for his sin he is saved and will go to Heaven.

Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Breaking just one commandment, commiting one sin, prevents you having relstionship with God. The rape is as much as a sin as stealing.

The victim also has had the same chance to have her sins forgiven. if it was my daughter being the victim in this case, I would be able to rest knowing that she would be in the loving care of her Heavenly Father, in a place of no more pain, or tears.

I'd be gutted though.

(An Australian Muslim can rape an unveiled girl without threat of reprisal, because it is her fault?)

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 4:17pm

BrianCalgary wrote:

Correct.

Purgatory is not Biblical and is a creation of the Catholic church. It does not exist.

Thanks Brian.

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 4:23pm

BrianCalgary wrote:

(An Australian Muslim can rape an unveiled girl without threat of reprisal, because it is her fault?)

No Muslim can rape a girl and stay alive I think. Please read this, but tell me, why did you include Muslim and rape in this thread if I may ask??

Since the punishment for rape doesn't exist in the Noble Quran, but exists in the Sayings of our beloved Prophet peace be upon him, then the verdict or law for punishing the rapist according to Noble Verses 4:59 and 4:83 above must come from our beloved Prophet's Sayings.

Let us look at what Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said regarding this issue:

The following information was sent to me. Let us look at how Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him dealt with the rapists:

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"

BrianCalgary · 31-10-2006 4:25pm

T-1111111111111 wrote:

No Muslim can rape a girl and stay alive I think. Please read this, but tell me, why did you include Muslim and rape in this thread if I may ask??

You brought up the rape scenario.

To ask such a thing on the Islam thread would get me banned.

hairyheretic · 31-10-2006 4:33pm

Was it in any way influenced by the story from Australia a week or two ago, and the muslims cleric's comments regarding women as 'uncovered meat' ?

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 4:36pm

BrianCalgary wrote:

You brought up the rape scenario.

To ask such a thing on the Islam thread would get me banned.

I brought up the rape scenario cos I think that is one the ugliest sins there is. Another reason is that how can somebody do such an evil thing and just by believing in Jesus "deserve" Paradise for Eternity, even if he doesn't repent?

And you just had to immediately relate rape with Islam. How wonderful.

I think it would be fair that you ban yourself for life here, what do you think?

T-1111111111111 · 31-10-2006 4:38pm

hairyheretic wrote:

Was it in any way influenced by the story from Australia a week or two ago, and the muslims cleric's comments regarding women as 'uncovered meat' ?

I didn't hear about that incident. I just mentioned rape cos I think it's actually of the worst case scenarios of an evil humand mind.

hairyheretic · 31-10-2006 4:55pm

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I didn't hear about that incident.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061026/ap_on_re_au_an/australia_muslims

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I just mentioned rape cos I think it's actually of the worst case scenarios of an evil humand mind.

I doubt you'll find many people who would disagree with that.

BrianCalgary · 31-10-2006 4:59pm

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I brought up the rape scenario cos I think that is one the ugliest sins there is. Another reason is that how can somebody do such an evil thing and just by believing in Jesus "deserve" Paradise for Eternity, even if he doesn't repent??

Yes they do, because they have repented of their sin adn Jesus has paid for it. I agree, I don't think that there is anything more heinous than sex crimes.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

And you just had to immediately relate rape with Islam. How wonderful.??

Just wanted your reaction on one of your clerics in Australia blaming rape on the woman. The cleric brought it into the news, not me. Just wanted your comment.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I think it would be fair that you ban yourself for life here, what do you think?

There are times when this wouldn't be a bad idea.:)

Dades · 31-10-2006 5:16pm

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I brought up the rape scenario cos I think that is one the ugliest sins there is. Another reason is that how can somebody do such an evil thing and just by believing in Jesus "deserve" Paradise for Eternity, even if he doesn't repent?

And you just had to immediately relate rape with Islam. How wonderful.

I think it would be fair that you ban yourself for life here, what do you think?

T-1111 you are well aware of the liberties available to you here on the Christianity board to ask questions that cast shadows on the faith of the people in here, and with the genuine attempts to answer those questions. Why do you insist on getting insulted when somebody makes a connection between your religion and anything unsavoury?

Your reactions are mirrored by the charter in the Islam forum banning all discussion that questions the tenets of your faith - yet you have no problem doing the same here - until of course somebody turns the table.

You mentioned the treatment of a rapist under Christianity - Brian mentioned the treatment of one under Islam (which he couldn't in the Islam forum). Get over it.

Victor · 01-11-2006 1:46am

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I brought up the rape scenario cos I think that is one the ugliest sins there is. Another reason is that how can somebody do such an evil thing and just by believing in Jesus "deserve" Paradise for Eternity, even if he doesn't repent?

The rapist can't just say "I believe in Jesus" and be accepted, he must believe it with all his heart and mind, part of which must include the acceptance of Jesus' teachings.

I am sure there are many minor sins that we forget to repent about - being angry at someone, being selfish or taking what is not yours to take and so on - that we simply forget about individual instances. Making a true profession of faith in Jesus can forgive these. However, in making such a profession, one can't simply turn around and do the same things again.

For a rapist / murderer to say he believes in Jesus, will have to mean he understands what he has done and at least mentally is sorry / repenting for it. If he were to die then, I think he would be accepted. But if he were to die much later, he must not have sinned since his change.

Do the Popes and "the Saints" go to Heaven 100%?

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