Nightclub closing hours vs how much we drink

nobodythere

Anyone who has been on the streets of a major city in the country at 2:30am will know that people in this country drink far too much. I’ve been reading about the Give Us The Night campaign (http://giveusthenight.com/mandate.php) and I’m opening up some discussion on the closing hours of clubs versus the social disorder that follows it.

An example of their proposed closing hours goes like this:

• Pubs - stop serving alcohol 12 am
  Close completely at 12.30 am
• Late Bars - stop serving alcohol at 1.30 am
  Close completely at 2 am
• Nightclub Type 1
  Stop serving alcohol at 3 am, close completely at 4 am
• Nightclub Type 2
  Stop serving alcohol at 4.30 am, close completely at 5.30 am

They say that having the same closing hours for all nightclubs puts great pressure on fast food industry, emergency services and taxi services and that all of this is the main cause of public order offences. Lack of taxis and queues for food do not cause anti-social behaviour. People being off their faces when they get out of the club does. I don’t know how many of you have been around the streets sober when the clubs close but it’s a pretty scary and pathetic sight.

It’s true that we have the earliest closing hours for nightclubs in Europe, but we all know that having clubs serving until 4:30am in Ireland means people drinking until 4:30am. It would be chaos on a new level. You can blame the law all you want but this is one of the few countries where being absolutely plastered isn’t a taboo.
I’m not saying that they don’t have a point about everyone coming out of the clubs at the same time, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that’s the problem.
I’m proposing some changes in alcohol laws:

• Beer/cider can be sold to people over 18, but spirits/whiskey etc can only be sold to those over 21. There comes a point for many people when drinking beers that if they drink any more they know they’re going to get sick. Spirits don’t really enforce that limit.
• Clubs should be allowed to stay open until 3am, but must stop serving at least an hour before they close. This ensures that people aren’t fooked when they leave the club.
• Make it mandatory to produce ID in an off-license (within obvious limits). This wouldn’t be such a big deal if certain things could only be sold to over 21s.
• Harsh penalties for those caught buying drink for minors.

What do you all think?

Karl Hungus

grasshopa wrote:

What do you all think?

I think you're completely wrong.

I believe there's a direct correlation between closing times and the drinking culture here in Ireland. The fact is, you go out to a club, say around 11 or 12, you've got a very limited time to enjoy yourself, and thus people feel the need to cram as much drink into themselves as is possible in the space of time provided in order to get drunk.

You're saying it would be "Chaos on a new level" if people were drinking untill 4:30. What you are doing is assuming that people will automatically be drinking at the same volume for an extended period of time. That isn't physically possible, because if people manage to get themselves completely plastered in 2 or 3 hours, they'd very quickly find themselves burned out.

If you've got more time, then that promotes a much more relaxed drinking enviroment.

I've been to plenty of places all over the world where opening times can be as late as 6 or 7 am. Always, the atmosphere is much more relaxed. That's because if you want to get drunk, there isn't the need to cram as much down you as possible, you can relax and take it easy, spread it out over the entire night. I remember a place in Tokyo, where we started drinking and after a while we went off to play some pool, then ping pong and whatever else, before going off and finding a corner to sit in and chat. So we were drinking quite a lot for the first couple of hours, we'd stopped drinking a couple of hours before heading off.

Anyway, I'm certainly not suggesting that if we had later opening hours that problems related would all of a sudden dissapear. It'd take time for people to get used to a more relaxed drinking atmosphere, and there would certainly be problems during the transition, but people would soon get used to it.

Imposing stricter conditions is ridiculous. There's nothing to say that someone 21+ isn't going to get as plastered as someone 18-20, so it's imposing senseless restrictions.

nando

I'm not sure what we could do to solve the problems here - whether what works in the rest of Europe would work here or not.

But I definitely don't think enforcing age restrictions beyond what we have will improve anything. I agree with Karl Hungus that people are as likely to go out and get drunk at any age. I get drunk quicker now than I did when I was 18 - don't know why but I do. As regards spirits/beers etc. - I become horribly drunk and act terribly with only one or two ciders but on spirtis I'm fine - I think it's more to do with the individual than an age.

As for closing times - I can only say from personal experience of being on holidays with large groups of people in their early twenties that although they might drink until serving stops they don't all necessarily drink more because they have longer to do it. I'm as likely to only have 5/6 vodkas in a nightclub closing at 6 in Greece as I am to have the same amount here in a nightclub closing at 2.30. Only in the first instance I'll have had them over longer a period and probably will only remain constantly merry and never actually hammered.

Zombrex

Karl Hungus wrote:

I believe there's a direct correlation between closing times and the drinking culture here in Ireland. The fact is, you go out to a club, say around 11 or 12, you've got a very limited time to enjoy yourself, and thus people feel the need to cram as much drink into themselves as is possible in the space of time provided in order to get drunk.

It depends on how you define "enjoy yourself"

There is a limit to the amount you can actually consume. If someone enjoys themselves drinking say 6 pints between 9 and midnight, and then another 6 pints between midnight and 3am, are they not enjoying themselves just as much if they drink 6 pints up until midnight and then leave.

I doubt you will find someone trying to drink 12 pints between 9 and midnight because they want to get as drunk as they would be at 3am. They will continue to drink the 6 pints as they would normally because that is the level they are comfortable consuming at.

The problem isn't people trying to drink as much as humanly possible to reach some kinda target. The problem is people drinking and drinking and drinking as something to do in the club, and will not stop once they have gone over a certain limit.

People drink as something to do in a night club. Once they are at a suitably "merry" state they will continue to drink well past that limit because they have nothing else to do. You dance or drink in a night club. There is actually f**k all to do in a night club, and conversation is rather difficult. Everyone feels arkward in a night club if they aren't doing something, and for most people that is drinking. You very rarely see someone standing around not drinking or dancing.

I truely believe that if opening hours are extended they will only make things worse, because it is quite clear that given the oppertunity to continue drinking Irish people will because they have nothing else to do. It is almost expected that you don't stop drinking until the bar physically closes, and even then you get in another 3 or 4 drinks to last you till the very end of the night.

Karl Hungus wrote:

What you are doing is assuming that people will automatically be drinking at the same volume for an extended period of time.

There is no reason to believe that they won't.

Unlike places like Europe, young Irish (and British) people don't voluntarly stop drinking. They stop drinking when they physically have to, ie when the bar closes. The most likely reason for this is because they have actually nothing else to be doing in the nightclub, except dancing.

If you extended the opening hours till 4.30 do you honestly believe people at about 2 would say "wow, i've really had enough, time to stop I think?" If the Irish were able to stop once they reached their limit we would not have a problem in the first place.

Karl Hungus wrote:

If you've got more time, then that promotes a much more relaxed drinking enviroment.

People will drink at the same level, but longer because the night will last longer. The reason they are drinking is for something to do. This is clear by the fact that people don't stop even after they are very drunk. Being very drunk at 12 still doesn't give you anything more to do, you still have to find something to occupy your time, so you go and get more drink.

You can get drunk in 15 minutes with a bottle of whiskey. But then you would have nothing to do for the rest of the night. People drinking in clubs as a focus of attention.

Karl Hungus wrote:

It'd take time for people to get used to a more relaxed drinking atmosphere, and there would certainly be problems during the transition, but people would soon get used to it.

But the pub or club isn't relaxed to begin with.

It is arkward and embrassing for most people, which is why they get drunk in the first place. Just like most teenagers start smoking as something to do while they are hanging around to stop them feeling awkward, most people drink in clubs to give themselves something to do. Because there is nothing worse than looking like you have nothing to do in a night club.

Most young adults, particularly males, find social situations such as night clubs particularly arkward anyway, especially when things like scoring girls are thrown into the mix. I bet if we made everyone enter a club and spend the night without a drink the vast majority of people would say they hated the experience.

Increasing opening hours simply increases the amount of time that the person is trying to find something to do to stop them being in a position of nothing to do.

Froot

Having longer hours of business would certainly eventually change the stayle of drinking here to a more relaxed pace, ala Europe but the road to that point would be unbearable.

The amount of people that would be hospitalised, arrested or even dead would be enough to ensure that the kind of hours they enjoy on the continent will never be introduced here in the next 10 to 15 years.

I see the main problem is that every is drunk and wired and suddenly they are in the street hungry or tired or wanting to take some bird home or whatever and everywhere is mobbed with similar idiots wanting to do the same.

That is as much our fault as it is the governments however. We adapted to their system of business all too readily.

Zombrex

Froot wrote:

Having longer hours of business would certainly eventually change the stayle of drinking here to a more relaxed pace, ala Europe but the road to that point would be unbearable.

How?

It won't make being in a nightclub less arkward, it won't give people in a night club anything more to do.

I see absolutely no reason to believe that extending hours of business alone would make anyone more relaxed in night club at all.

The way to make people more relaxed in a night club is to actually make them more relaxed. Vastly increase seating for a start. It was very awkward to be standing around doing nothing, which is why people get drinks so they can be standing around focusing on drinking their drinks (this also leads to them consuming the drink much faster than how it is supposed to be consumed, leading to faster drunken state). People feel less arkward sitting down doing nothing.

Having music in all areas of the night club greatly reduces the ability to converse with each other, which again leads to arkwardness and nothing to do. If you cant carry on a proper conversation that is something else you cannot do instead of drink. Increase areas in night clubs that are shielded from the music, or have the music playing at lower volumes, and with plenty of seating, gives people a place to sit and chat. Some clubs have done this but they put the rooms in arkward out of the way areas with little service with kinda defeats the purpose.

Froot wrote:

I see the main problem is that every is drunk and wired and suddenly they are in the street hungry or tired or wanting to take some bird home or whatever and everywhere is mobbed with similar idiots wanting to do the same.

Who is going to go to a night club that closes much before all the others? You are going to end up with deserted 2am closing club, and jam packed 5am closing club. Everyone from the 2am club would just around and try and get into the 5am club.

The whole idea works on the idea that people would be sensible enough to choose to go to a early closing night club, sensible enough to stagger their drinking better, sensible enough to know when to stop drinking, sensible enough to go home despite other places still being open.

But if people were sensible there wouldn't be a problem. People are idiots. People choose to go to the most late night opening night club, even if that means they don't get home till 6am. People choose to drink high alcohol very quickly but then continue to drink constently through the night. People choose to continue to drink after they feel themseleves getting very drunk, they just switch to alcho-pops that are easier to continue drinking. People choose to continue on the night by trying to get into any pub or club that is still open, or starting up their own little mini-club in the local chipper.

People are idiots. You can't give people the option and expect (hope) them to pick the better option.

seamus

Wicknight wrote:

People are idiots. You can't give people the option and expect (hope) them to pick the better option.

No, but you can force a change in habits. The simple fact of the matter is that people will drink themselves legless, whether the pub closes at 2.30am, 4.30am or 12pm.

Longer opening hours however will dilute the vast majority of people. Contrary to popular belief, while a lot of people will end up drunk on a night out, they won't end up completely brainless. Plenty of pubs have hundreds of people standing outside chatting, long after the pub has closed - an indicator that these people are capable of some semblence of brain activitiy, and at the same time willing to have fun without alcohol.

There would be a short and chaotic period of transition - people unable to change their habits and drinking themselves senseless, but eventually a change would be forced in habits. 99% of people don't set out to drink themselves into a complete stupor. After once or twice ending up a tad too drunk because they could keep buying alcohol, they cop on (consciously or otherwise) that they have to control themselves.

The main benefit would be that everyone isn't spilling onto the streets at the same time. It's all well and good to say that "It's not the queues that start fights, it the drinking", but in reality, which have we got control over? We can't ban alcohol, and earlier closing times = earlier drinking.

The other good side effect of later opening hours is that it will force a change in the way clubs are run. As it is, anyone can wander around a pub completely legless and get served more drink so long as they don't fall asleep in the corner. The bouncers and the publicans know that come 2.30am they can just throw the guy out and he's not their problem. If the pub is open till 6 or 7 in the morning, then they have to police their patrons and eject or refuse those people who've drunk themselves silly.

Zombrex

seamus wrote:

No, but you can force a change in habits. The simple fact of the matter is that people will drink themselves legless, whether the pub closes at 2.30am, 4.30am or 12pm.

But a lot less people will drink themselves legless if the clubs closed at 12am. There are always some people who are legless by 12am anyway, but the vast majority of people aren't. They only started getting completely pissed around 1 or 2, and yet they continue to drink.

seamus wrote:

Plenty of pubs have hundreds of people standing outside chatting, long after the pub has closed - an indicator that these people are capable of some semblence of brain activitiy, and at the same time willing to have fun without alcohol.

The longer the night goes on the less sober or semi-sober people you find. There are far more sober or semi-sober people outside the pub at 12 than outside the night club at 3am

seamus wrote:

There would be a short and chaotic period of transition - people unable to change their habits and drinking themselves senseless, but eventually a change would be forced in habits.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain what "force" will change habits

seamus wrote:

99% of people don't set out to drink themselves into a complete stupor. After once or twice ending up a tad too drunk because they could keep buying alcohol, they cop on (consciously or otherwise) that they have to control themselves.

No they don't. If they copped on there would not be a problem in the first place.

People generally are not prepare do stop drinking in a night club, unless they are dancing, because drinking is one of the few things you can actually do in a night club to keep occupied. And there is nothing worse than standing around doing nothing in a night club.

If the club hours were extended all you are doing is extending the period of time where the people in the night club have to find something to do with themselves. The vast majority occupy this time either drinking or buying drinks. Few people pace themselves under the current system because that increases the period where you aren't doing anything. If you require that people pace themselves ever long, that they increase the period of time when they aren't doing anything, you will get no where.

seamus wrote:

The main benefit would be that everyone isn't spilling onto the streets at the same time.

Again, what makes you think anyone will actually go to the night club that closes way before the other ones? Everyone will attempt to go to the night clubs that stays open the longest, and the other nightclubs will do poor business.

You are also limited by the amount of time you actually have. If you put an hour between each closing time you simply half the number of people on the street. That is largely pointless, because that is still far to many very drunk people out and about. Most fights start between people in the same night club over disagreements that happen in the night club itself.

seamus wrote:

We can't ban alcohol, and earlier closing times = earlier drinking.

Easiler closing times = less drink.

There is no reason to believe people will start going out earlier to fit in enough drinking time. People decide when to go to the pub based on other factors such as work dinner and how long it takes to get ready. There is no reason to believe that people will drink significantly faster to fit in enough drink before the pubs or clubs close. People drink in a club or pub as something to do. There is a physical limit to how quickly a person can purchase and consume alcohol, and if the early closing times were combined with a price hike there is no reason to believe people would drink more than the limit they do to keep themselves comfortable in teh social situation.

Del2005

Easiler closing times = less drink.

Thats cr@p, all that happens is people will just go out earlier or drink faster.

Every country that has brought in 24hour pubs has seen a noticalble drop in anti social behavior after the first couple of weeks/months of mayham. The English have had it for a year now and their police are amazed at how much less trouble they are having. The thing with 24 hour pubs is that you don't have to go out at 10/11 to have a few beers, you can go out whenever you want and leave when you want. There is no racing for closing time and getting as many in as you can before being kicked out.
As was said before, if pubs open later then after a bit of chaos people will settle down and learn. But there will always be people who are stupid and drink themselves into a coma, but there are laws for that already and if they are enforced then this can be stopped.

Why should I not be able to go to the pub at 4am cause someone else can't control themselves? The Gaurds/publicans should enforce the current laws and not be looking for new laws/restricted opening times.

Zombrex

Del2005 wrote:

Thats cr@p, all that happens is people will just go out earlier or drink faster.

That makes no sense, and is not supported by the evidence.

If most people are so determined to drink themselves into a completely drunken state that they will drink much faster to make sure they reach this state by 12 midnight, then what makes you think these same people won't drink themselves into a completely drunken state if the clubs are extended till 5am and they have an extra 5 hours of this heavy drinking?

Del2005 wrote:

The English have had it for a year now and their police are amazed at how much less trouble they are having.

Er, not quite

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4552114.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/4576850.stm

The second report points to the fact that 999 calls on New Years day, when 4,000 pubs and clubs were given extentions, were now going on through the night, where as before they would cease after about 2am. And this isn't even 24 hour drinking, this was just extentions.

Amazingly people didn't head off home at the usual time, they stayed until the very end, and as a result got more and more drunk.

Violent crime seemed the same as normal according to the Kent police, so I suppose the argument that if you just get everyone so drunk they can't walk let alone start a fight, you will decrease violent crime is valid, though kinda missing the point.

Del2005 wrote:

There is no racing for closing time and getting as many in as you can before being kicked out.

There is no reason to believe people will leave the night club earlier than they have to. In fact evidence suggests they don't. People are free to leave the night club before they get very drunk in the current situation. If they did we wouldn't have a problem.

Del2005 wrote:

As was said before, if pubs open later then after a bit of chaos people will settle down and learn.

What??

This is ridiculous. The entire argument in support of long opening hours is based on this hope that under long licensing laws people will some how magically mature and take their drinking more seriously. It isn't happening under the current system where people have less freedom to get drunk, yet you some how think that it will if you give them freedom to drink for as long as they like?

That argument is wishful thinking nonsense.

It is simple maths. People drink consistently during the time they are in a night club. Increase the time they spend in the night club you increase the amount of alcohol they consume. Decrease the time they spend in the night club you decrease the amount of alcohol they consume.

All this nonsense that introducing longer hours will some how create a paradim shift in our culture is completely unfounded. The only countries that benefited from things like 24 hour drinking have completely different cultural attitudes towards drink. If you look at how the Irish or British drink when in these European countires, in the resorts etc, we don't drink at all like the Europeans, we drink like we do at home but we do it for longer and get more drunk.

Budd

Not agreeing with you at all OP.

If somebody wants to sell alcholol at 6am then let them. If somebody wants to drink at that hour then let them. If an 18 year old wants to drink spirits then the should be able to. WHy are you prejudging the chracter of a 18-21 year old adults?

Zombrex

Budd wrote:

Not agreeing with you at all OP.

If somebody wants to sell alcholol at 6am then let them. If somebody wants to drink at that hour then let them. If an 18 year old wants to drink spirits then the should be able to. WHy are you prejudging the chracter of a 18-21 year old adults?

If someone wants to get pissed drunk, start a fight in McDonalds, throw up on the night link, eventually pass out and be carried to an A&E where they assault a nurse, let them?

Del2005

Wicknight wrote:

If someone wants to get pissed drunk, start a fight in McDonalds, throw up on the night link, eventually pass out and be carried to an A&E where they assault a nurse, let them?

No throw the full weight of the law at them, but if someone wants to have a few drinks at 5 in the morning why not?

As for crime going down,

Violent crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales fell by 11% at the end of last year, despite longer pub opening hours coming in, figures show.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4692016.stm

Your 2 quotes are great.

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4552114.stm

Police forces in Wales and a representative of pub licensees organisation agreed with the poll and said the new laws had made little difference in their first month of operation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/4576850.stm

In Kent, police said their patch was surprisingly quiet on New Year's Eve.

Dover District Council's head of licensing, Tony Bartlett, said the new hours did not appear to have had much effect.

So there was an increase of 999 calls over the new year, they only think the laws may have been to blame.

As for drinking when away. It's only cause it's such a novelty that you can drink all night that people do it, and usually only for a couple of days.

Not all people can't be trusted, some of us actually have a life and work. We would like the option of having a drink when we like not being treated like kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Del2005
Thats cr@p, all that happens is people will just go out earlier or drink faster.

That makes no sense, and is not supported by the evidence.

Personal experience:D

Zombrex

Del2005 wrote:

No throw the full weight of the law at them, but if someone wants to have a few drinks at 5 in the morning why not?

Because you only know who is going to abuse that situation after the fact.

BTW why do you want a drink at 5am??

Del2005 wrote:

As for crime going down,

If you read the article you will see the UK government spend an additional 2.5 million with extra police to target anti-social behavior after pubs close, over a six week period. So all the UK government have to do is spend 2.5 million in policing every month.

Del2005 wrote:

So there was an increase of 999 calls over the new year, they only think the laws may have been to blame.

The time is the important bit to focus on. The increase was because the calls continued through out the night, where as normally they would cease after 2 or 3am. People aren't being sensible, they are continuing to drink on through the night. Which I mean should be obvious, no one has yet been able to explain what this mystery force is that is going to make people slow down in their drinking.

Del2005 wrote:

As for drinking when away. It's only cause it's such a novelty that you can drink all night that people do it, and usually only for a couple of days.

Its because they can. Given the opportunity young people these days will drink for as long as they can. This is the same if the clubs stay open till 12, 3 or 6 in the morning. I know of very few people who stop drinking after they are drunk on there own.

Del2005 wrote:

Not all people can't be trusted, some of us actually have a life and work. We would like the option of having a drink when we like not being treated like kids.

If everyone stopped acting like kids we wouldn't have a problem in the first place.

nando

[I]BTW why do you want a drink at 5am??[/I]

Why not? What if you've just finished work and, like many people, you feel like going for a few drinks to wind down?

Zombrex

nando wrote:

[I]BTW why do you want a drink at 5am??[/I]
Why not? What if you've just finished work and, like many people, you feel like going for a few drinks to wind down?

If you are a night shift worker then going for alcohol after work is a bad idea.

Night workers suffer from dehydration, since the body is naturally designed not to consume fluids during the night due to natural slow down and the lowering temprature, but because they are up and about they are using stored water. Having an alcoholic drink straight after you finish your shift is possibly the worst thing you can do (the best being having a few glasses of water), as alcohol further dehydrates you.

SmoothyG

It seems to me, Wicknight, that it is you that feel arkward in night clubs, you cant/dont like to dance, and generally dont like the drinking scene.
then why does it concern you? just dont go!!!

you asked for evidence, Well if you want evidence of what it would be like to have 24 hr access to drink, just look at nearly every other country. and dont try to hide behind "our culture" how do you know what the italians would be like if they had restricted drinking times? or us if we had 24hr?
I lived in spain for many years, after a few nights of getting the hang of being out drinking for 10 hours, you soon get the hang of it. it also opens the doors to different types of bars that can open and close as they wish.
the problem of our nations alchohol problem can not be addressed by prohibitionary solutions of any kind, its proven to not work,
the problems of mass crowds of drunks on the streets at the same time can be solved by spreading the closing times.

And since when did you ever teach a kid responsibility by restricting them further.
So if you want the nation to stop acting like kids in a sweetshop when they are out, maybe let the learn from thier mistakes.

And IMHO there is a certain amount of people that will get smashed when they go out because that is what they want to do, the amount of people with that inclination isnt going to change if we have 24hr laws, it just means there is less chance of leaving the club at the same time as the idiots.

People drinking in a nightclub because they feel bored or arkward is just fecking rediculous, Why would you go there if you didnt want to do (or at least some of) drink, socialise, dance, get laid, have fun.

Really Wicknight, i think you have had some bad experiences and blame the hours rather than not enjoying a drink

SmoothyG

Wicknight wrote:

If you are a night shift worker then going for alcohol after work is a bad idea.

Night workers suffer from dehydration, since the body is naturally designed not to consume fluids during the night due to natural slow down and the lowering temprature, but because they are up and about they are using stored water. Having an alcoholic drink straight after you finish your shift is possibly the worst thing you can do (the best being having a few glasses of water), as alcohol further dehydrates you.

I think you mean when you are asleep, not working at night, if you work at night and sleep during the day you body will only be missing a bit of vit D from the sunlight.

Drinking alcohol dehydrates you anyway. day or night.

Zombrex

SmoothyG wrote:

It seems to me, Wicknight, that it is you that feel arkward in night clubs, you cant/dont like to dance, and generally dont like the drinking scene.

Spare me your "oh you are such a square" nonsense. What are you, 17? :rolleyes:

It is exactly that kind of childish attitude to drinking, and to the very serious problem of alcohol abuse in Ireland that only makes the problem worse and provides no solutions.

I go out on average 2 times a week, I stay out till the last taxi home, and I drink regularly. I'm fortunate enough to know my limit and to not mind stopping once I have reached that limit. For years I didn't know my limit.

It is exactly because I do this that I am aware of the reality of Irish drinking culture, and why Irish people drink the way they do.

You on the other hand seem to think everyone is having as much fun as you are pretending to have each night :rolleyes:

SmoothyG wrote:

you asked for evidence, Well if you want evidence of what it would be like to have 24 hr access to drink, just look at nearly every other country

I have. I how the Irish drink in 6 other countries. And guess what (you might want to sit down for this), they drink exactly the same as they do here!!!

When the Irish are on holiday or working in European countries they amazingly enough don't drink like the Europeans, they drink like the Irish do here. Which is consistent steady prolong drinking. They drink from the moment they enter the nightclub till the moment they leave.

I have seen night clubs in Italy and the Balkian countries that do not allow specifically Irish and British either into the night club or to avail of the drinks promotions sepecifically because we do not stop drinking given the oppertunity..

SmoothyG wrote:

. and dont try to hide behind "our culture" how do you know what the italians would be like if they had restricted drinking times? or us if we had 24hr?

Because it is quite easy to observe French or Italians in countries like Ireland or the US that have restricted drinking times, and they don't get sh1t faced. And it is quite easy to observe Irish and British in countries that do have 24hr drinking and we do get very sh1t face.

SmoothyG wrote:

I lived in spain for many years, after a few nights of getting the hang of being out drinking for 10 hours, you soon get the hang of it.

Are you someone who has a problem with drinking normally in Ireland? No? Then what you can or cannot do is rather irrelivent don't you think.

SmoothyG wrote:

it also opens the doors to different types of bars that can open and close as they wish.

And?? We need these bars because....?

SmoothyG wrote:

the problem of our nations alchohol problem can not be addressed by prohibitionary solutions of any kind, its proven to not work

When was it "proven" not to work? Binge drinking and alcohol abuse has risen 50% in the last 10 years, which is funnily enough the same period in which the licensing laws were relaxed

SmoothyG wrote:

the problems of mass crowds of drunks on the streets at the same time can be solved by spreading the closing times.

People keep saying that as if you can have a 100 different closing times, or let people out at 10 people a go. That is nonsense. You can have at most 3 different closing time, which just means you have the incidents spread over a long period of time. There is very little difference between having 3,000 people dumped onto the streets in one go, or having 1,000 people dumped out every half hour. You also have the fact that the clubs that stay open the longest will naturally be far more popular than the ones that close 2 hours earlier.

SmoothyG wrote:

And since when did you ever teach a kid responsibility by restricting them further.

Since when did a night club teach a kid responsibility at all, or even try to?

SmoothyG wrote:

So if you want the nation to stop acting like kids in a sweetshop when they are out, maybe let the learn from thier mistakes.

We are learning from our mistakes. It is a mistake to allow unlimited drinking till 3am.

SmoothyG wrote:

And IMHO there is a certain amount of people that will get smashed when they go out because that is what they want to do, the amount of people with that inclination isnt going to change if we have 24hr laws

It not, but the people who will be seriously drunk will rise significantly.

As you say you can't do much about the people who go to specifically to get as drunk as they possibly can. But these are very small proportion of people, mostly with depression problems. None of my mates are like this. All my mates end up hammered at the end of the night? Why? Because they don't stop drinking

Irish people, in a night club, given the oppertunity, will not stop drinking unless they are physically forced to stop by the bar or the night club closing.

Some people are responsible, some people know their limit and are quite happy to stop drinking once they have reached that limit. Some people even know how to work out how to spread their drinks so they drink all night but never get that drunk. The vast vast majority of people don't They drink quickly and they drink the entire time, not because they are on some mission to get very very hammered, they do it because it is something to do in the night club. As I said before being in a night club is an arkward

SmoothyG wrote:

People drinking in a nightclub because they feel bored or arkward is just fecking rediculous

You obviously have never actually been in a nightclub, or if you were you weren't paying very much attention to anything beyond the immediate (maybe you were too drunk)

I imagine you would rather rip out your toe nails than ever admit that you have ever felt arkward or uncomfortable in a night club, ever been bored or uninterested because you can't hear the person beside you, or ever gone to the bar simply for something to do. You are far too cool for that :rolleyes:, so I won't bother trying to get you to.

But I assure you plenty of people have and do. You only have to wander around a night club looking at what people are actually doing to see that 90% of the people at any one time in a night club are in the middle of actually doing nothing.

SmoothyG wrote:

Why would you go there if you didnt want to do (or at least some of) drink, socialise, dance, get laid, have fun.

Who says they don't want to dance, have fun, socialise and get laid?

It is precisily because they want to do all these things that it is arkward to be standing around without a drink in your hand and without anything to do.

Zombrex

SmoothyG wrote:

I think you mean when you are asleep, not working at night

No, I mean when you work at night.

When you are asleep you aren't doing anything, and as such your body rests and you don't use water. This is the what your body expects to happen. When you work at night you are up and about awake and doing things, and you are using water, but your body is still in "night mode", triggered by the drop in temp and the lack of daylight. Your body therefore does not handle water regulation properly, and you become dehydrated. The worst thing one can do is add alcohol to that situation.

SmoothyG

so you wander around night clubs looking to see who is having fun or not? sad!
when i go to a niht club i normally have fun, laugh with friends, dance and then 2 hours after arriving get kicked out incase i drink too much!!!
lol

If you feel arkward being in a night club dont go.
People dont drink in clubs due to boredom, they drink because maybe they like to drink??????

and if you work at night your body will adapt to change your body clock, the only difference is if it is once off, out of routine and that you dont get the same sun light.

So looking at how people drink on holidays is how you look to predict the results of 24hr. If you have looked at the irish workers abroad you will see they blend in nicely. the areas that ban the english and irish are all holiday resorts, and please dont use holiday resorts as a base for logical arguments, there is no need to discredit yourself, ill do that for you

SmoothyG

Wicknight wrote:

You on the other hand seem to think everyone is having as much fun as you are pretending to have each night :rolleyes:

You obviously have never actually been in a nightclub, or if you were you weren't paying very much attention to anything beyond the immediate (maybe you were too drunk)

I imagine you would rather rip out your toe nails than ever admit that you have ever felt arkward or uncomfortable in a night club, ever been bored or uninterested because you can't hear the person beside you, or ever gone to the bar simply for something to do. You are far too cool for that :rolleyes:, so I won't bother trying to get you to.

But I assure you plenty of people have and do. You only have to wander around a night club looking at what people are actually doing to see that 90% of the people at any one time in a night club are in the middle of actually doing nothing.


Who says they don't want to dance, have fun, socialise and get laid?

It is precisily because they want to do all these things that it is arkward to be standing around without a drink in your hand and without anything to do.

I worked in night clubs all through Uni, and i loved it, i loved being in a club when i wasnt working, As for the people "doing nothing" I often just look around soak up the atmosphere, watch people dance. Exactly what, other than talking dancing and drinking do u expect people to do in a night club?

And i have never felt arkward in a night club just because i was in one!! I have felt arkward because of lots of things, some times this occurs when im in a night club, but never just because i was there!!!

So you are suggesting that some people feel arkward because they want to have fun and cant, because they are in a night club and..............

My point is that closing hours and the drink problem here have there roles, if it is an attitude towards drink within our culture, then the closing times are irrelevant, if it is the closing times that cause the drink problem then reducing the hours will only lead to more condensed drinking.

Zombrex

SmoothyG wrote:

so you wander around night clubs looking to see who is having fun or not? sad!

I see having a serious discussion about alcohol consumption in Ireland is out of the question :rolleyes:

SmoothyG wrote:

If you feel arkward being in a night club dont go.

I don't feel arkward being in a night club. If I did, I wouldn't go and I wouldn't be able to tell you what it is like in a night club.

SmoothyG wrote:

People dont drink in clubs due to boredom, they drink because maybe they like to drink??????

That is a complete non-answer.

Did people 10 years ago not like to drink? Why is binge drinking up by such a huge level, and why is 58% of male drinking binge drinking when 10 years ago it wasn't? Why do Irish people drink as much as they do now, and why do they drink in such a more drastic manner than on the contient?

SmoothyG wrote:

and if you work at night your body will adapt to change your body clock

No, it won't. You can't undo 30 million years of mammalian biological evolution simply by staying up late.

SmoothyG wrote:

If you have looked at the irish workers abroad you will see they blend in nicely.

I have, they don't. They only "blend" when they are with other Europeans. In groups of other Irish they carry on like they do at home.

Don't forget we will have the european 24hour law, but we aren't getting the European culture of drinking with it. We aren't flying over thousands of Europeans to go out with us each friday night.

SmoothyG wrote:

the areas that ban the english and irish are all holiday resorts,

What?

The holiday resorts are the only ones that don't do this, since they are set up especially for the Irish and British.

It is the local night clubs, that have late night opening for locals, drinks promotions for locals, that ban the Irish and British because they abuse the system set up for locals.

Zombrex

SmoothyG wrote:

I worked in night clubs all through Uni, and i loved it, i loved being in a club when i wasnt working,

You've said that already ... in fact you seem to be falling over yourself to tell me how much you love night clubs, going out and drinking. Does that fact not concern you a little bit?

SmoothyG wrote:

Exactly what, other than talking dancing and drinking do u expect people to do in a night club?

Isn't that the point? There is nothing else to do, so if someone doesn't want to be standing around doing nothing they are either dancing or drinking.

SmoothyG wrote:

I have felt arkward because of lots of things, some times this occurs when im in a night club, but never just because i was there!!!

So you have felt arkward in a night club then ... so what exactly is your point?

SmoothyG wrote:

So you are suggesting that some people feel arkward because they want to have fun and cant, because they are in a night club and..............

I am telling you that most people, especially young people, feel arkward in social situations such as night club. It is a natural response, given the situation and social behavior expected. You are either unaware this happens (lucky you), or are pretending it doesn't happen

I would imagine you surround yourself with a select group of people that make you feel comfortable, safe and secure, and as such you diminish the arkwardness you feel in the the situation. I don't blame you, that is what I do too, I think it is what most people would do in the situation if they can.

If I had to guess I would say you are either a girl or you go out a lot with groups of girls (I don't mean that in anyway as an insult, it is well understood that the social pressure on males in groups of other males is greater than on a male in a group of females)

SmoothyG wrote:

My point is that closing hours and the drink problem here have there roles, if it is an attitude towards drink within our culture, then the closing times are irrelevant

They aren't irrelivent at all, the limit the amount of avaiable time to drink. Limit the time available you limit the amount of drink consummed.

SmoothyG

They aren't irrelivent at all, the limit the amount of avaiable time to drink. Limit the time available you limit the amount of drink consummed.[/QUOTE]

No, they will just drink quicker , and then more at home.

so from the top

1) I dont feel arkward in a night club, or any social occasion because i dont care what others think. especially in a night club, and yes i have friends that i am secure with.
The youth feeling arkward in social surroundings and turning to drink because they are bored?? Have you ever been to a club?? People drink and dance and laugh because it is fun!!!! some over do it.

2) 10 years ago people, especially the youth, didnt have as much expendable income. even thought they spent what they had on alcohol,

3)I stressed i like clubs, twice, becuase you seem to be under the impression that 90% are bored and arkward, i think that is bolloks!!! more like 90% are merry, relaxed and having fun.

4)If dancing and drinking isnt your idea of fun than dont go to clubs.

And finally, what do you propose as the new laws to punish the majority, the likes of me and you that drink responsibly so that we can "help" the minority who have problems?

Zombrex

SmoothyG wrote:

No, they will just drink quicker , and then more at home.

What are you basing that on? Would you just drink quicker?

SmoothyG wrote:

1) I dont feel arkward in a night club, or any social occasion because i dont care what others think.

No offence but in my experience the people who say they don't care what others think are the ones who care the most. It is a biological instinct to care what others think of you. I imagine you care what your friends think. If you weren't drinking and your friends slagged you about this fact I would imagine you would certainly care about it.

SmoothyG wrote:

The youth feeling arkward in social surroundings and turning to drink because they are bored??

They are not "turning to drink" .. you make it sound like everyone in a night club is clinical depressed.

They are drinking for something to do, because it is arkward to be in a social situation and not have anything to do. You are then just standing around, hand in pockets.

SmoothyG wrote:

10 years ago people, especially the youth, didnt have as much expendable income. even thought they spent what they had on alcohol

So by your logic 10 years ago people didn't have "fun", since they clearly were not able to buy enough alcohol to have "fun" ... is that right?

If they could have fun then why do we need to be drinking 10 times as much to have "fun". Are we having 10 times as much "fun"

SmoothyG wrote:

I stressed i like clubs, twice, becuase you seem to be under the impression that 90% are bored and arkward, i think that is bolloks!!! more like 90% are merry, relaxed and having fun.

You either have never been in a night club (I'm assuming you have), or when you are in a night club you don't pay any attention to anyone other than the group of friends you are with.

If 90% of the people in a night club were merry and relax we would never have any problems at nigh. The exact opposite is true.

SmoothyG wrote:

4)If dancing and drinking isnt your idea of fun than dont go to clubs.

Groan .. :rolleyes:

SmoothyG wrote:

And finally, what do you propose as the new laws to punish the majority, the likes of me and you that drink responsibly so that we can "help" the minority who have problems?

Two things -

1) the tax on drinks should raised significantly. As you said 10 years ago we didn't have as much desposable income so we couldn't afford to drink as much as we do now. Some how people 10 years ago still managed to have fun (amazing isn't it), consuming a lot less alcohol than they do now. We drink far far more than is healthy for us to do, and we drink far far more than we actually need to drink to get drunk. What we actually do is drink till we are drunk and then keep drinking, which is rather pointless since we are already drunk. You just end up with alcohol posioning and a liver that is ready to pack it in a 35.

2) All night clubs and pubs should stop serving alcohol at 12 midnight. After that they can stay open for as long as you like, 24 hour if you think people would stay. If, as you say, you don't need to drink consistently through the night to have fun you should have no objection to this, since you are still free to do all the other things that you can in a night club.

nobodythere

Wicknight wrote:

1) the tax on drinks should raised significantly. As you said 10 years ago we didn't have as much desposable income so we couldn't afford to drink as much as we do now. Some how people 10 years ago still managed to have fun (amazing isn't it), consuming a lot less alcohol than they do now. We drink far far more than is healthy for us to do, and we drink far far more than we actually need to drink to get drunk. What we actually do is drink till we are drunk and then keep drinking, which is rather pointless since we are already drunk. You just end up with alcohol posioning and a liver that is ready to pack it in a 35.

Sorry I didn't reply to the thread but the posts after mine convinced me for the most part.

I don't think it's a good idea to try and buy the irish out of drinking. It's an attitude problem and you can't restrict their personal freedom by trying to control what they can and can't afford to do, it's not really a way of positive long term change. If you want to compromise your own health, that's your own decision, it only really becomes an issue when you affect other people.

Aoife-FM104

My take on things is slightly different.

1. We should be allowed drink whenever we want anyway. 24/7/365.
2. We need to improve our education system - alcohol awareness, safe sex, etc.

Zombrex

grasshopa wrote:

you can't restrict their personal freedom by trying to control what they can and can't afford to do

We do this all the time, with various products, for various reasons from health and safety to economical reasons. We already do it alcohol, have done for years.

legs11

maybe its time to lock this thread, its getting a bit tedious......zzzzzzzz

besides, i need to get a pint:D


but seriously, we do have a drinking problem, and its taken for granted.......did anyone bring up the issue of the cost of non alcohol drinks in clubs, .

unfreakinreal.......

abetarrush

U missed Club type 0, cos most clubs stop servin at 1 and close at 2.30

Cianos

Wicknight you seem to be so anti-fun its unreal. Your argument is basically saying that any kind of fun or enjoyment should be negated in favour of maximum civil order.

Also you wrongly believe that by further restricting peoples freedom and ability to choose will make for a better society. People are not 'stupid', people are just people...what's so great about you that you can sit and judge people and place yourself so high above everyone else?

Sad Professor

I agree with a lot of what Wicknight has said, especially about people drinking for something to do. Why else are young teens so desperate to turn 18 and start pubbing/clubbing? Because there's nothing else to do. I'm of a generation that doesn't know how to socialise without alcohol to loosen them up first. I know so many people who can't even walk into a pub/club on their own (or even with a group sometimes) without a couple of drinks first.

But I disagree that earlier closing times will help solve the matter. Brute force tactics don't work. The problem is cultural: we celebrate drinking as the national pastime and yet we still hold it out as a forbidden fruit to young people. We make no attempt to teach them how to drink responsibly. In fact we actually teach them the opposite. We joke and brag about how irresponsibly we drink. I mean, its actually cool in this country to get absolutely s**tfaced and say/do stupid things. You can use being drunk as an excuse for almost anything.

I'm still not sure where I stand on 24 hour pubs but I don't think it would have a huge effect either way on Irish drinking culture. Its not so much how we drink but why we drink. And because we enjoy it isn't a good enough answer. There's lots of things one can enjoy doing, why do Irish people have such a hard time find anything but drink?

Cianos

Cianos wrote:

Wicknight you seem to be so anti-fun its unreal. Your argument is basically saying that any kind of fun or enjoyment should be negated in favour of maximum civil order.

Any kind of fun or enjoyment? The only thing I've seen him wanting to limit is alcohol comsumption (maybe I'm wrong, if someone could point out to me where he was limiting anything else that'd be good) which is certainly not the only source of fun or enjoyment in this country. The problem is that far too many people think so and think they need to go out and drink to have fun. There was even an AH thread recently where the op said they were giving up alcohol and therefore had pretty much nothing to do on a saturday night. That's a problem.
People need to cop on and stop binge drinking because they are spending stupid amounts of money on it and not doing anyone any good. I sometimes wonder why many of the people going out don't just buy a bottle and sit at home in the corner drinking it because as drunk as they get they sure as hell can't be interacting with their friends that much due to being incapable...

as for closing hours, I'm in two minds about this one. I think people absolutely need to cop on and drink less but if there's a chance they'd go less nuts with nightclubs being open longer then maybe it should be given a go...
I could see some people calming down and not chugging the drink while they can because there's no pressure anymore... but I could see others taking advantage of it to (somehow) drink even more than they did before...

I bet if we made everyone enter a club and spend the night without a drink the vast majority of people would say they hated the experience.

It can be fun, dancing is certainly fun, but pubs are definitely better
particularly when there are pool tables
that said I'm as happy to go out to eat or sit in a cafe in the evening with friends as go to the pub so... *shrug*

Zombrex

Cianos wrote:

Wicknight you seem to be so anti-fun its unreal.

"Anti-fun" .... Groan :rolleyes:

Maybe you should ask yourself the question why you need to get drunk to have fun Cianos?

Cianos wrote:

Your argument is basically saying that any kind of fun or enjoyment should be negated in favour of maximum civil order.

Yes Cianos, that is my argument :rolleyes:

I also want to steal all your lollipops

Cianos wrote:

People are not 'stupid'

Actually "people" (16-35 year olds, particular women) by and large are very stupid when it comes to their own health and doing damage to their bodies. The rising alcohol, drugs and obesity levels in Ireland evidence of that.

Cianos wrote:

what's so great about you that you can sit and judge people and place yourself so high above everyone else?

Well I'm not an idiot, so I seem to have some advantages ...

Cianos

sad professor wrote:

I agree with a lot of what Wicknight has said, especially about people drinking for something to do. Why else are young teens so desperate to turn 18 and start pubbing/clubbing?

Good post Sad Professor. It's not that drinking is just 'something to do', its something they are not supposed to do. In my view young people are so desperate to go pubbing/clubbing because as you said yourself, its a forbidden fruit. They want to rebell and do what they are told they cant...like most other things teenagers do. Is it not better for a child to have his/her first beer with his parents at dinner than to be introduced to a naggin of vodka in a field somewhere?

Wicknight wrote:

Maybe you should ask yourself the question why you need to get drunk to have fun Cianos?

I never said I need to get drunk to have fun Wicknight, in fact I would drink very little on a night out in comparison to a lot of people. But guess what...getting drunk is fun and its something people enjoy doing! On top of this, (and you may want to sit down for this one) 99% of the population go out every weekend, get drunk and dont cause a bit of hassle even though they may crawl in through the door at 10 past the 4 am Ted

Wicknight wrote:

Actually "people" (16-35 year olds, particular women) by and large are very stupid when it comes to their own health and doing damage to their bodies. The rising alcohol, drugs and obesity levels in Ireland evidence of that.

Actually, most people are well aware of the negative sides of drug abuse nowadays with the amount of health articles and sensible drinking campaigns. But it is still their choice. You cant force people into making the healthier choice, its their body and they can drink whatever they please. Closing bars at 12pm is not going to turn us into a nation of athletes. So do you think shops should stop selling cigarettes at 12 too for all the smokers out there who cant say no to another fag?

If bars close at 12pm, as much as you'd like it to be so, the population is not going to be tucked up in bed at 12.30 all nice and sober. People will just drink at home where they can drink a lot more because a. its only 12 o'clock, b. there is no bouncer trying to shove them to the door and c. its way way cheaper!

I am well aware that there is a big drink problem in Ireland but enforcing stricter rules is not going to make it any better. Taxing drink further, closing bars earlier are all short sighted quick fix solutions that will not force people into changing their habits in the long term. Whats needed is a more relaxed attitude to drink in general, to allow people to make decisions of their own accord and to alleviate the strain put on gardai, hospitals and other services every weekend. As other posters have said it could be messy for a while as people adjust to their new found freedom but in the long run people will adapt a more mature attitude towards drink if they are forced to be responsible within themselves out of their own choice.

Cianos

Cianos wrote:

Good post Sad Professor. It's not that drinking is just 'something to do', its something they are not supposed to do. In my view young people are so desperate to go pubbing/clubbing because as you said yourself, its a forbidden fruit. They want to rebell and do what they are told they cant...like most other things teenagers do. Is it not better for a child to have his/her first beer with his parents at dinner than to be introduced to a naggin of vodka in a field somewhere?

Exactly. If only we had a little more relaxed culture with the odd bit of alcohol at home like they seem to in central europe... that way alcohol isn't such a big deal and people don't go nuts on it.

Sad Professor

Cianos wrote:

Is it not better for a child to have his/her first beer with his parents at dinner than to be introduced to a naggin of vodka in a field somewhere?

bluewolf wrote:

Exactly. If only we had a little more relaxed culture with the odd bit of alcohol at home like they seem to in central europe... that way alcohol isn't such a big deal and people don't go nuts on it.

I agree. I think ones first experience of something, especially alcohol, definitely has a big influence on how that person views it, probably for the rest of their life. For example, a child who suffers drunken violence from a parent is probably not likely to drink as an adult, or if they do may become violent themselves. If ones first major experience of alcohol is in a pub/club (as I think it is for most middle-class teenagers) then they may come to see socializing and drinking as being inextricably linked.

Alcohol as a forbidden fruit is certainly the primary drive behind underage drinking IMO. But I still think if there were better facilities and activities for teenagers in this country, and/or if more parents encouraged their kids to take up hobbies, as well as taking a more relaxed approach to alcohol, the problem wouldn't be nearly as bad. Alcohol is recognized as being such a huge part of Irish culture and yet you can't legally drink it till your 18. So is it really any surprise that the minute we do turn 18 (or look old enough) we run to the nearest pub/club and get completely hammered.

We aren't teaching our kids properly.

Zombrex

Cianos wrote:

I never said I need to get drunk to have fun Wicknight, in fact I would drink very little on a night out in comparison to a lot of people.

Then how would my suggestion ruin your fun?

Cianos wrote:

But guess what...getting drunk is fun and its something people enjoy doing!

So is speeding. And chucking rocks at trains....

If it wasn't "fun" to do people wouldn't do it and we wouldn't have a problem would we?

Cianos wrote:

On top of this, (and you may want to sit down for this one) 99% of the population go out every weekend, get drunk and dont cause a bit of hassle even though they may crawl in through the door at 10 past the 4 am Ted

You figured that 99% using the best statistical analysis available today did you? :rolleyes:

Here are some real figures for you -

41.1% of the male population and 30% of the female population regularly binge drink. This is the highest in Europe.

20% deaths of women under 29 from road accients or falls are caused by alcohol. 37% of all drownings are caused by alcohol.

88% of all public order offense and 48% of all criminal offenses :eek: are alcohol related

Intoxication of minors in a public place has increased by 370% in the last 10 years.

25% of all A&E attendents are there because of alcohol related injuries, with 1 in 8 still drunk when they get there.

30% of all male patients and 8% of women in Irish hospitals have been found to have serious underlying alcohol related damage to their bodies.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/theafternoonshow/story/1070711.html
http://www.healthpromotion.ie/topics/alcohol/alcofacts/statistics/

So please, 1% of the population is a nonsense statistic.

Cianos wrote:

Actually, most people are well aware of the negative sides of drug abuse nowadays with the amount of health articles and sensible drinking campaigns.

No actually most people have no clue about the damage drinking does to them. Most people don't even know what is actually classified as "bringe drinking". For a man it is 4 pints. Surprised?

Cianos wrote:

You cant force people into making the healthier choice

Actually, you can. When was the last time you saw a Coke being sold with actual cocaine in it?

Cianos wrote:

So do you think shops should stop selling cigarettes at 12 too for all the smokers out there who cant say no to another fag?

I think cigarettes should be banned completely from pubs. Oh wait, they are. And it has had a huge effect in decreasing the numbers of smokers.

Funny that the "give them as much as they can have" attitude amazingly didn't decrease the numbers of smokers isn't :rolleyes:

Cianos wrote:

If bars close at 12pm, as much as you'd like it to be so, the population is not going to be tucked up in bed at 12.30 all nice and sober.

They don't have to be tucked up in bed, they don't even have to go home. They just have to stop drinking.

Jesus, where did this idea come from that if you can't get sh1t faced there is no point being out in a night club? Ask yourself that question if you think we don't have a drink problem in this country :rolleyes:

Cianos wrote:

As other posters have said it could be messy for a while as people adjust to their new found freedom but in the long run people will adapt a more mature attitude towards drink if they are forced to be responsible within themselves out of their own choice.

Seriously, has the whole world gone nuts. I swear I am in a South Park episode

1 - Relax drink laws, give peopel the freedom to drink as much as they like when they like
2 - ?????
3 - Mature attitude to alcohol consumption

What is stage 2 Cianos? What makes our culture go from the state it is now to a mature attitude to alcohol? What is stopping us from having a mature attitude to alcohol now? Licencing laws? The high price of alcohol?

After years of awareness campaigns being ignored by the general population, especially young people smoking decreased when people were simply not allowed smoke.

Heck even the plastic bag tax forced people to think about reusable bags.

"Freedom of consumption" and easy unlimited access has never forced or made anyone think responsibily about something that they weren't already being responsible about.

Zombrex

Sad Professor wrote:

I agree with a lot of what Wicknight has said, especially about people drinking for something to do.

I'm not actually saying that people go drinking to a pub or a club because they have nothing else to do.

My point was that when you are actually in a night club, apart from dancing, there is nothing to do. This makes people slightly nervous, because as a culture we worry about simply standing around doing nothing. So, for something to do in the night club, people drink, simply as something to occupy the time while they are standing around chatting (which is hard to do because of th sound) or waiting to dance.

Picking up on blue's point about the pool, next time you are in a pub watch how much people drink when they are doing something like watching the match, or playing pool, or at a table quiz or something, and then watch how much someone drinks (even yourself) when they are doing nothing but sitting around. It will probably be more.

Then watch how much people drink in the same period in a night club enviornment. It will again increase.

To save you the trouble people already have, and people drink faster and therefore consume more the less they have to physically do in the enviornment they in. Some people call this "nervous drinking", though its not like you have to be really uncomfortable to do this, it is more of subconscious reaction.

Men do this more than women because they tend to find one-on-one social interaction more unnerving with out a 3rd party topic of discussion such as a football game.

It would be a very interesting social experiement to see how people would find an enviroment like a night club if they could not order drinks, even non-alcoholic ones.

Cianos

Wicknight wrote:

Then how would my suggestion ruin your fun?

huh? I said I drink a little amount in comparison to most people, I didnt say I never drink. I dont know why your making this comment.

Wicknight wrote:

So is speeding. And chucking rocks at trains....

If it wasn't "fun" to do people wouldn't do it and we wouldn't have a problem would we?

Even if it wasnt fun people would still do it actually. And as fun as they may be, chucking rocks at trains and speeding are highly dangerous acts towards other people. People drink to enjoy themselves and the act of consuming an alcoholic drink is not putting anyone at risk. The act of drinking a drink is not comparable to throwing rocks at trains and speeding.

Wicknight wrote:

41.1% of the male population and 30% of the female population regularly binge drink. This is the highest in Europe.

20% deaths of women under 29 from road accients or falls are caused by alcohol. 37% of all drownings are caused by alcohol.

88% of all public order offense and 48% of all criminal offenses :eek: are alcohol related

Intoxication of minors in a public place has increased by 370% in the last 10 years.

30% of all male patients and 8% of women in Irish hospitals have been found to have serious underlying alcohol related damage to their bodies.

25% of all A&E attendents are there because of alcohol related injuries, with 1 in 8 still drunk when they get there.

Cianos wrote:

I am well aware that there is a big drink problem in Ireland

Wicknight wrote:

So please, 1% of the population is a nonsense statistic.

Your statistics dont give any reading on the proportion of total drinkers to the amount that cause hassle because of drinking, which was my point in the first place. What proportion of people in a club will end up in a fight for example? What proportion of people in the whole of Dublin city on any given weekend night will end up in a fight? As I said, the vast majority of people go out to unwind and enjoy themselves with their friends, and do not cause any hassle.

Wicknight wrote:

No actually most people have no clue about the damage drinking does to them. Most people don't even know what is actually classified as "bringe drinking". For a man it is 4 pints. Surprised?

They may not know the intricate medical details of the effects of alcohol on the system, but most people do know that alcohol is bad for you. If you asked thousands of people 'is drinking bad for your health?' do you really think most people would not say 'yes'? Yet even knowing that drinking is bad for them, its a sacrifice most people are willing to make...why? Because they enjoy it.

Wicknight wrote:

Actually, you can. When was the last time you saw a Coke being sold with actual cocaine in it?

What does this have to do with it? Plenty of ingredients in various products have been deemed unhealthy and since removed to protect unaware consumers. Are you saying they should remove alcohol from beer?

Wicknight wrote:

They don't have to be tucked up in bed, they don't even have to go home. They just have to stop drinking.

A whole country stops drinking at the stroke of midnight...right. If this was to be voted on what kind of support do you think this notion would get?

Wicknight wrote:

Jesus, where did this idea come from that if you can't get sh1t faced there is no point being out in a night club? Ask yourself that question if you think we don't have a drink problem in this country :rolleyes:

Cianos wrote:

I am well aware that there is a big drink problem in Ireland

Wicknight wrote:

What is stage 2 Cianos? What makes our culture go from the state it is now to a mature attitude to alcohol? What is stopping us from having a mature attitude to alcohol now? Licencing laws? The high price of alcohol?

I'm not going to pretend I have have all the answers, but I think that our attitude towards drink needs to change before we mature as a nation of drinkers. If our attitude towards drink does not change, we are going to continue drinking the same amount regardless. And I do not think tightening closing times will change our base attitude towards drink. Unless you took an extreme approach, close pubs at 10pm and have them only serve 25 year olds and older, charge €20 for a pint, a year in jail if your caught giving abuse to the local chipper.

So now hardly anyone drinks, the country runs like clockwork...but does this mean people are happier? Is society better? Or is there something unhealthy about putting so many restrictions on people to the point where the individual feels he or she may as well have shackles around the ankles. Should we always be willing to sacrifice our own personal freedom and choice, the ability to be responsible? Its a question of how far along the nanny state road you want to go before things start turning sour.

Zombrex

Cianos wrote:

huh? I said I drink a little amount in comparison to most people, I didnt say I never drink. I dont know why your making this comment.

Do you need drink to have fun? If you don't then not having drink will not stop you having fun, will it?

Cianos wrote:

People drink to enjoy themselves and the act of consuming an alcoholic drink is not putting anyone at risk.

No one is talking about banning alcohol. No one is suggesting people don't drink. What I am saying is that there is a limit, a point when your desire to have as much fun as you can cross the line where it is damaging yourself and other.

Cianos wrote:

Your statistics dont give any reading on the proportion of total drinkers to the amount that cause hassle because of drinking, which was my point in the first place. What proportion of people in a club will end up in a fight for example? What proportion of people in the whole of Dublin city on any given weekend night will end up in a fight?

Tell me?

Cianos wrote:

As I said, the vast majority of people go out to unwind and enjoy themselves with their friends, and do not cause any hassle.

If that was the case we would not have a problem would we?

Cianos wrote:

They may not know the intricate medical details of the effects of alcohol on the system, but most people do know that alcohol is bad for you. If you asked thousands of people 'is drinking bad for your health?' do you really think most people would not say 'yes'? Yet even knowing that drinking is bad for them, its a sacrifice most people are willing to make...why? Because they enjoy it.

No because they don't actually understand what it is doing to them.

A doctor in one of the papers a few weeks ago told an interviewer about a woman in her 30s who broke down when she was told she had the liver of a 60 year old. People know "drinking is bad for you" but they have no idea what it does or how quickly it does it.

Cianos wrote:

What does this have to do with it? Plenty of ingredients in various products have been deemed unhealthy and since removed to protect unaware consumers. Are you saying they should remove alcohol from beer?

No, I'm pointing out that your argument that people should just be free to do what ever the hell they want even it is harmful to them is ridiculous, and not followed in any other area of public safety. So why drinking?

Cianos wrote:

A whole country stops drinking at the stroke of midnight...right. If this was to be voted on what kind of support do you think this notion would get?

Probably very little, just like the smoking ban.

Cianos wrote:

I'm not going to pretend I have have all the answers

You don't seem to have any answers

Cianos wrote:

If our attitude towards drink does not change, we are going to continue drinking the same amount regardless.

Our attitude to drink, just like our attitude to smoking, would change the more it is restricted. People don't smoke 10 cigs very quickly before they get to the pub to last them through the night.

Cianos wrote:

And I do not think tightening closing times will change our base attitude towards drink.

That is what people (smokers mainly) said about the smoking ban. People won't follow it, the pubs will go out of business, people will stay at home, no one will go out for a cigarette.

Attitudes did change because they were forced to change.

Cianos wrote:

Or is there something unhealthy about putting so many restrictions on people to the point where the individual feels he or she may as well have shackles around the ankles.

If not being able to get a drink past 12 midnight would make you feel like you have shackles on your ankles you have a drinking problem.

Cianos

Wicknight wrote:

Do you need drink to have fun? If you don't then not having drink will not stop you having fun, will it?

No I dont need to drink to have fun. But I like drinking, so even if I am already having fun I would still like to have a drink. Whats wrong with that?

Wicknight wrote:

If that was the case we would not have a problem would we?

If 100,000 people go out, and 1% get into a fight, that is a lot of fighting. That is a problem. Your calling of my (off the top of my head) 1% estimate nonsensical obviously means you think the number is far higher. So you think there would be what, 20,000 fights? The incidents that do happen are obviously problematic and in cities there is a big strain put on services due to the high volume of people. However, the vast majority of punters go out and do not cause hassle. How can you not agree with this?!

Wicknight wrote:

No, I'm pointing out that your argument that people should just be free to do what ever the hell they want even it is harmful to them is ridiculous, and not followed in any other area of public safety. So why drinking?

But people are free to do whatever they want even if it is harmful to them. If I want to go to Woodies and drink a litre of turpentine, I can. If I want to go to the offlicense, buy 30 beers and a litre of vodka and drink til every drop is gone, I can. The only way you can stop people from doing so is to ban the drug altogether. Theres always going to be people who go over the line, but they are going to do it regardless, or unless their attitude changes over the long term. So the question is what is the best way of changing peoples attitude.

Wicknight wrote:

You don't seem to have any answers

And your answer is??? Close all bars at 12. See how many people get behind you on that one.

Wicknight wrote:

Our attitude to drink, just like our attitude to smoking, would change the more it is restricted. People don't smoke 10 cigs very quickly before they get to the pub to last them through the night.

That is what people (smokers mainly) said about the smoking ban. People won't follow it, the pubs will go out of business, people will stay at home, no one will go out for a cigarette.

Attitudes did change because they were forced to change.

The Irish attitude to drink and the Irish attitude to smoking are in different leagues. 30% of Irish adults smoke while around 75% of Irish adults drink regularly. People dont go out to smoke, they go out to drink. Smoking is not seen as a social thing, drinking is. You can still smoke when you go out, albeit a little more inconveniantly but for the most part it does not effect your night out. Bars closing at 12 will have a massive impact. Drinking is fun, smoking while enjoyed by some is an unwanted addiction for most. One of the main issues regarding the smoking ban was for the betterment of working conditions for employees. You cannot drink passively. No matter how much booze is sold in a bar the barmans health is not effected.

Wicknight wrote:

If not being able to get a drink past 12 midnight would make you feel like you have shackles on your ankles you have a drinking problem.

Sigh...your persistence to tar me (and other posters) as closet alcoholics for the sake of your argument is wearing quite thin at this stage. You have a talent for taking peoples point way out of context. Let me say it for you nice and clear; I do not have a drink problem. Just because someone disagrees with your views on drinking does not mean they have a drink problem.

Zombrex

Cianos wrote:

So the question is what is the best way of changing peoples attitude.

That is the question. And this is the answer

At least, this it the practical answer. Your "lets hope everyone just some how manages to realise to drink responsibly but I don't know how that will actually come about after all I don't have all the answers" answer doesn't really count.

But then I don't really think you are arsed finding an answer, I think your main interest is that you are allowed to continue doing what ever it is that you do on a Friday night.

Cianos wrote:

Sigh...your persistence to tar me (and other posters) as closet alcoholics for the sake of your argument is wearing quite thin at this stage.

I don't think you are a closet alcoholic. I would imagine you are a young person, probably male, who has recently discovered the "joys" of going out, either in college or just finished college, and you have become so wrapped up in the modern culture of drinking as a form of social recreation you can't view any other way to spend a Friday or Saturday night.

But then I could be completely wrong, you could be an 80 year old grandmother. It doesn't really matter who you are. Your argument that not being able to buy an alcoholic drink in a pub or club after midnight would some how "shackle" your civil liberties is nonsense either way.

Cianos wrote:

You have a talent for taking peoples point way out of context.

Er, weren't you the poster who said I was on an "anti-fun" crusade and that I want any fun activity to be banned?

Cianos wrote:

I do not have a drink problem.

Good for you.

People dont go out to smoke, they go out to drink. Smoking is not seen as a social thing, drinking is.

I've heard of "only a social smoker" before

When I asked people who drink heavily why they go out, they say they go out to socialise and have fun
"drink" isn't necessarily included in that
so if they just want to drink, they can buy it in the offlicence and stay home
or if they don't just want to drink, restricting drink in nightclubs or whatever shouldn't be so much of an issue

As for calling you a closet alcoholic, you might not be but there are plenty of people wandering around AH for example who'd agree with you when they do certainly have some kind of drinking problems
going out binge drinking every weekend or more to get completely plastered is a problem, even if "everyone else does it"

lostexpectation

Cianos wrote:

No I dont need to drink to have fun. But I like drinking, so even if I am already having fun I would still like to have a drink. Whats wrong with that?

do you really need to drink that many gallons of liquid ?

Cianos

Wicknight wrote:

That is the question. And this is the answer

At least, this it the practical answer.

Practical? You call closing all bars at 12 practical? Right..have you ever been in Dublin city centre at 3am on a Saturday night? If you have you would know it can be quite chaotic. This is from thousands of people spilling on to the street at the same time. Now, whats taking place at around 12? People are leaving bars as that is around the time most bars would be closing. Some of these people would be going home, some for food, some to a club/late bar, and a large proportion of them would be going home. So, you have all the people who would go out to a club/late bar remaining in the city centre. And you have all the people who are on their way home leaving the city centre. This leaves a period of around 2 and a half hours before all the clubs/late bars close. In this time the large proportion of people who are not going on to a club/late bar are making their way home. Then a while later you have the rush of people leaving the clubs who also want to get home. Now, can you imagine what it would be like if you had all the people who would not have gone to a club, and all the people who would have gone to a club out on the streets at the same time? It would be like Dublin at 3am, except not only do you have all the clubbers, you have all those people who were just going to a normal bar and who intended on going home around 12 anyway. ie, a much larger amount of people. At least with bars closing around 12 and late bars/clubs closing around 2.30 you have a certain level of staggered closing times which dilutes the flow of people. Your proposition would have ALL the punters trying to get taxis, buses, food at the same time. Doesn't sound very practical to me.

Wicknight wrote:

Your "lets hope everyone just some how manages to realise to drink responsibly but I don't know how that will actually come about after all I don't have all the answers" answer doesn't really count.

I said I dont have all the answers, it doesnt mean I dont have an opinion. I dont have all the answers, and you dont either. At least we are discussing it though.

Wicknight wrote:

But then I don't really think you are arsed finding an answer, I think your main interest is that you are allowed to continue doing what ever it is that you do on a Friday night.


I don't think you are a closet alcoholic. I would imagine you are a young person, probably male, who has recently discovered the "joys" of going out, either in college or just finished college, and you have become so wrapped up in the modern culture of drinking as a form of social recreation you can't view any other way to spend a Friday or Saturday night.

But then I could be completely wrong, you could be an 80 year old grandmother. It doesn't really matter who you are. Your argument that not being able to buy an alcoholic drink in a pub or club after midnight would some how "shackle" your civil liberties is nonsense either way.

Being neither a young student or an 80 year old grandmother, I would have a problem with that yes and I am certain most individuals between the two extremes would also have a problem with that. What would it take for you to feel your civil liberties are being compromised? Quite a lot it seems.

Wicknight wrote:

Er, weren't you the poster who said I was on an "anti-fun" crusade and that I want any fun activity to be banned?

I'll admit my first post was fairly brash, but the point I was trying to make was that you seem to have little or no appreciation or preservation for the positive sides of socialising. People enjoy going out after a working week to meet their friends, have a few drinks, unwind, meet a nice lady or man etc etc. These are all good things which people enjoy doing. Obviously people can do it to an unhealthy extent. But you have to have an appreciation for the enjoyment that people get from going out. You cant dismiss the fact that thousands of people across the country do it regularly as a source of enjoyment or pleasure much like you would have your things that you enjoy. And there is a lot of positivity in that. And yes of course there are other things to do that dont involve drinking, and they should be encouraged.

Cianos

lostexpectation wrote:

do you really need to drink that many gallons of liquid ?

huh?

caff

Anyone onsider lookin at the reports of what is happening in the UK where they now can get 24 hour licences??

http://society.guardian.co.uk/drugsandalcohol/story/0,,1956469,00.html
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/display.var.1039650.0.yorks_24hour_drinking_laws_one_year_on.php
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/uk/article_1225708.php/Drinking_law_reform_defies_apocalyptic_predictions