Debate-not argument

bilbo79

i watched a k1 fight where this kick boxer tko'd a boxer by leg kicks-then there was all these comments on how kickboxing was superior to boxing by kickboxers-1st off the boxer was washed up and very slow,barely threw a punch and was much smaller than the kickboxer who was young and strong.
Opinion
Good boxers will always beat kickboxers-i am a boxer at heart but also do muay thai training and have done kenpo and train with kicboxers all the time-obviously i like these arts. when you see boxers in k1 there usually washed up or heavy weights that are slow on there feet(easy to hit with big leg kicks)
fast footwork boxers would love this as they can get in and out of range very quick and land there big shots-also a number of my friends fight kickboxing and are boxers and have earned all ireland titles by throwing the minimum 6 kicks badly a round and then boxing-these same lads have not won ireland titles in boxing.by the way i just want to add that MMA at the top level is the only art that should beat boxing because they have boxing muaythai grappling-etc...

Clive

So when will we be expecting to see you winning an Irish Muai Thai title?

bilbo79

I stopped fighting 10 years ago-but would of loved to give it a go. train for fun now. i love muay thai-im not having a go at it-just some ma fans who dont understand the fundamentals of the arts. any kickboxer/thai boxer who fought a decent boxer will admit that.oh and won of my freinds who is also a boxer won his 1st international muay thai fight by ko in 1st round and was not an international boxer!! had 6 months muay thai before fight but boxed to win.

Clive

bilbo79 wrote:

Good boxers will always beat kickboxers

Why don't average boxers go and win K1 then? Between 100,000 top prizes and multi-million sponsorship deals available in Japan you'd think at least one would have the initiative to go and clean up.

Boxers winning in a kickboxing match is just the same as judoka winning in wrestling - there's a lot of crossover and someone skilled in one can pick up the other fairly quickly, but at an elite level you have to specialise.

cowzerp

Why try to win a whole k1 tournament for 100'000 when an average boxer could get millions for 1 nights work!! boxers who do these are finished and just looking for a last pay day-same with boxers who do mma-there not up to the big money at boxing so try mma and usually do o'k considering the differences in sports-chuck liddel who's my favourite fighter fights like a boxer and does well through great punching and boxer like footwork-not enough money in kickboxing for him though-i know he's a kick boxer!!
all the best kickboxing style fighters these days train to box aswell. i know as i personal train lots of them in boxing.

Nothingcompares

Billyboxer is always going to say the "Top quality boxer" is going to beat the crap out of everyone else. But in my opinion, if you matched a world leader in middle weight pro boxing with a world leader in middle weight Muay thai and stuck them in a boxing ring, billyboxer is going ot win. Put them in a muaythai ring and jimmymuaythai is going to win. Put them in a K1 rules ring and jimmymuaythai is going to win 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Put johnnyjudoka against willywrestler in a judo match and the judo guy will win. Put them in a freestyle/greco match, willy will win. put them in a subwrestling match - johnny should win.

The grappling one is actually very much my own unsubstantited opinion but concerning the strikers, I don't think any reasonable rational person can disagree.

dlofnep

I disagree with boxers being better than kick boxers or muay thai practitioners.

Firstly, muay thai covers offense from the clinch - Something a boxer would not be used to. Secondly, there is alot more range on a low kick than there is a jab.

Francois Botha is an example of a decent boxer who has fought in K-1. He's 44-4 as a boxer and has fought for the WBC heavyweight title. He's lost only to solid boxers. In K-1, he has had very limited success. infact, he hasn't really had any success whatsoever.

For a boxer to make it in k-1, they couldn't go in expecting to win with just boxing. They would have to spend some time in a MT gym and get used to the new ranges and clinch.

Not dogging on boxing because I think it's an amazing sport, but to say good boxers will always beat kickboxers is a rather bland and inaccurate statement.

bilbo79

Frans botha is a big slow fighter who was past his best when he joined k1-even at his best he was only a big bloke that could throw a punch-thats why i said fast figthers-like ali for heavyweight but most heavys are crap at the moment-the top fighters will never meet cause the top boxers can make more from 1 fight than a whole k1 carreer-i'd like to see the top of each fight but its not realistic-i can agree that a top muay thai heavy should beat a heavy boxer but thats it.

dlofnep

bilbo79 wrote:

Frans botha is a big slow fighter who was past his best when he joined k1

He fought for the WBO heavyweight title against Klitschko a year previous to it and lasted 8 rounds. Not completely out of his prime.

bilbo79 wrote:

-even at his best he was only a big bloke that could throw a punch

He could throw a punch that won him 44 pro boxing matches. If he was only a big bloke that could throw a punch, I don't think he would of got a shot at world title's on three seperate occasions.

bilbo79 wrote:

-thats why i said fast figthers-like ali for heavyweight but most heavys are crap at the moment

So it's K-1's fault that boxing's heavyweight division is poor? There is much more depth in boxing than there is in K-1 due to the fact that boxing is a more popular sport. MUCH more people compete in boxing.

bilbo79 wrote:

-the top fighters will never meet cause the top boxers can make more from 1 fight than a whole k1 carreer-i'd like to see the top of each fight but its not realistic-i can agree that a top muay thai heavy should beat a heavy boxer but thats it.

I agree they probably won't ever meet in their primes, but k-1 is mostly muay thai fighters anyways.. So I really don't see what your point is.

Roper

Just a small point- Botha isn't even a good fighter. Boxing for a Heavyweight title these days is not a badge of honour. The current heavyweight crop is terrible, Botha was a less than average boxer who was found guilty of doping, Botha is terrible in K1.

dlofnep

Granted Botha was not great, but he was good enough to fork up 44 wins in boxing. Like I said, as poor as boxing's heavyweight division is, it has alot more depth than k-1.

Any boxer will have problems in K-1 unless they train specifically for it. If they went in expecting to win on just boxing alone, they would be in for a suprise.

Roper

Well I guess thats the difficulty with this argument, most decent boxers can make a better living boxing than they can in K1, and they don't dream of the K1 title, they dream of boxing titles, so you get the likes of Botha or Ray Mercer, who was a good boxer, going over when they're finished.

Ultimately, K1 doesn't offer up all that much quality anymore, the glory days of Hugs, Aerts and Hoost are gone, and now there's very few good matches and more and more freakshows, so I don't think its a good platform for debate on which arts or sports are the best.

cowzerp

Botha was brutal-most pro heavyweights are not very good as boxing as an art is about been fast with feet to dodge and to make attacks where heavy weight just throw big heavy shots and win with 1 shot wonders-butterbean is an example of a heavy boxer who has an incredible record-and hes hardly the most gifted boxer!! just a big bar room brawler..if a lighter weight fighter has a record like these heavyweights then you know there good-but as stated earlier-in there prime they would not meet as the prize is too great in boxing-kicks are quiet easy to avoid and block-punches are not-i think if a boxer enters k1 they should learn to block with shins but most are just looking for a last pay day..

Millionaire

actually...

Wee Barry...as in Barry McGuigan "The Clones Cyclone" one of his big fights in boxing was against a Thai who also was a Muay Thai champ. cannot remember name. sorry to busy and against clock to google for it, but I remember seeing fight on RTE and thai got into ring climbing over ropes, in full trad geaR. Up Barry!!!!

Also some I know personally one MT champ, who represented Thailand in Greek Olypmics in Boxing..... cannot think of name.

Hey Bruce Lee in 50s... beat the British School Boys Hong Kong Boxing champ when he was 16 or 17....its on record, and Bruce only had a few years wing chun never mind boxing.

Theres always exceptions to the rules I guess.

Its not the size of the dog but the fight in the dog.

Roper

Yeah Cowzerp, you're right, a lot of heavyweights records are very, very padded, 44 wins isn't anything in the heavyweight division, you have to look at who the 44 wins were against. Compare the superb Chavez to Botha
Chavez- http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=8119
Botha- http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=3307
Chavez had 100 odd fights and all against tough, if not necessarilly talented, opponents. So I think we can safely put Botha aside as an example of how boxers can do in K1.

Dylan Scally

i don't know about boxers not being up to kickboxing. Just witness an member of the 2004 russian olimpic boxing team in super heavyweight boxing **** up a lot of people in euro champs.the minimum kick limit did not seem to hinder him.

cowzerp

as i said before i always see it-i believe thats why the minimum kicks per round where brought into kickboxing-as boxers where diluting the kickboxing sport by just evading or taking kicks then throwing combo's..

ColinJennings

I would have thought a kick boxer would have had the advantage given that they have a greater range using thier legs and are comfortable using knees, elbows and all the other tools, whereas a boxer uses a range of different punches, which would be part of the kickboxers arsenal aswell. I'm sure a better boxer could beat a kickboxer, and similarly a better kickboxer would beat a boxer, but going on the ability to vary the attacks I'd have to fancy a kickbxer over an equal boxer.

cowzerp

in a 1 on 1 fight every fight is slightly different so 1 fight cant prove this opinion-kickboxers stand in a position to kick-boxers stance is for footwork and punch power-people think that kickboxers are boxers who kick but this is not true-you only have to look at the difference between ko's in both sports-personally boxing and mauy thai are the 2 top striking arts-kickboxing is a little bit nice!

Roper

ColinJennings wrote:

I would have thought a kick boxer would have had the advantage given that they have a greater range using thier legs and are comfortable using knees, elbows and all the other tools,

Now you're talking about a Muay Thai boxer, most kickboxers don't use their knees and elbows.

Anyway, this argument could descend into silliness very quickly. X would beat Y if Y was able to use elbows, but Y would beat Z under Q rules and so on...

Suffice to say that boxing is excellent, and produces more proficient combat athletes than any other discipline I'd say. Kickboxing can mean 3 million things, and some kickboxing titles can be obtained in special packs of Rice Krispies. On a local (Irish) level, for me the "oh we're better because we use kicks" argument is about 15 years out of date as most arts that use kicking don't train effectively and therefore can't use them.

Millionaire

there is good kickboxer with good hands who train mainly hands....like where I came from. FC styl/

then there is the showy semi contact crap, with their flash suits, which is "sport karate" not kickboxig.

droc

Didn't buakaw absolutely some ex world champ boxer a while ago? I don't think there's a rule that says X beats Y. Both have their advantages and disadvantages a lot of it comes down to the fighter and strategy used.

DROC

Valmont

I think that a muay thai guy will prevail in the majority of standup fights with a boxer solely because he has six more weapons at his disposal to use at different ranges.

A boxer may have amazing hands but he is limited to just that. He doesn't use his elbows, knees and shins. That instantly puts him at a great disadvantage.

cmb.

i have to agree with the majority here - boxing, as fine a discipline it is, is much more limited than something like muay thai - there are so much more weapons with the use of hands, feet, elbows, knees, the use od the whole glove (not just the face), the use of the clinch etc - i would put it like this, if you put the greatest 100m runner in the world in a decathalon, obviously he would excell in his event, and, with the similatity is several others, probably hold his own to some point in a couple of others, but overall would not win out as he has no experience in many other areas

now, with the money in boxing and that in k1/lickboxing/muay thai, we are never going to see these champion v champion matchups but in a bout that allows both fighters to use their own techniques, the more complete strikers wins out - this is not a knock on boxing - just reality

Millionaire

from when I trained in Isan in thailand, in a camp famous for the clinch, these tiny guys would have the boxer, flying through the air head over heels.

I am 90kg and 60 kg guys threw me about like a rag doll.

In this reigon where they specialise in clinch, and a train a little bit of cheating in the clinch (which would not be seen in other camps), some of the take downs were like Greco Roman....now this was a traditional camp, so maybe thats the Muay Boran influence???

47MartialMan

Valmont wrote:

I think that a muay thai guy will prevail in the majority of standup fights with a boxer solely because he has six more weapons at his disposal to use at different ranges.

A boxer may have amazing hands but he is limited to just that. He doesn't use his elbows, knees and shins. That instantly puts him at a great disadvantage.

Frasier, Foreman, Tyson, Leonard, Marciano

It is also about who can take hard hits as well as give them.

Black Swan

bilbo79 wrote:

Good boxers will always beat kickboxers

Always???

47MartialMan

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Always???

Would this be like saying good grapplers would always beat strikers?

buck65

as most arts that use kicking don't train effectively and therefore can't use them.[/QUOTE]
Roper,
Please expand this - I am studying TKD at the moment ( I boxed for a year when I was young) and am really struggling at roundhouse and hook kicks - we had an excellent session last week where we concentrated on kicking for 40 mins I learned more from this than sparring 10 rounds - obviously flexibility is a big thing for kicks ( or lack thereof) just wondering what your experience on kick teaching has been.
PS Read a good article on Bernard Dunne on Saturday - that boy would be handy in a MT or KB ring!!