Dublin Bus after 5pm in Santry nor service

jjbrien

I work in Santry in Woodford Business Park which is beside Airways Business Park on the old Airport Road in Santry. Over the last 7 to 10 days the service in the evenings provided by Dublin Bus has got worse to an extent the there does be no bus. I have contacted Dublin Bus but got the normal run around about it. When I finsh work norwally at 5pm i can normally cath 2 or 3 diffrent busess to get me into the city (41, 746 or 16A). These busses have not been turing up latley. Yesterday there was no bus for 45 mins and when it did show up it was full. There seems to be an issue with not having busses latley or not enough drivers to drive them. This is a terreible situation. One of my colleges lives in blackrock and it normally takes her 1 hours and 5 mins to get home it how takes 2 to 3 hours which is not acceptable due to no busses in service in Santry heading for the city.
Has anybody else noticed this latley?

daymobrew

Did you contact the garage or HQ?
The garage should be more helpful. You could consider asking your employer to contact DB saying that multiple employees are being messed around.

jjbrien

We rang customer services in thier HQ. Got the normal run around about we will contact the garage.

Ste.phen

Usually the garage will actually know where the specific bus actually *is*.

I've noticed problems with the 16/16a route around 5-7pm from Santry/Airport alright, anecdotally it seems to be a problem with the earlier departures from the southside / City Centre not making it to Santry anywhere near the timetabled time

yadayada

The buses are indeed dreadful..really are, can make you so angry standing in the cold for 40-50minutes waiting for bus thats meant to be every 10minutes, I get the 19 or 19a and lately it has gotten so bad it could take up to two hours to get home, I have rang dublin bus in the past...surprise surprise they dont do anything! arrrrgghhhhhhh!!

AlekSmart

JJ`s observations cut to the core of the principle of the Quality Bus "CORRIDOR".

Whilst Dublin Bus and the various statutory and regulatory authorities are oft to be found waffling on about the massive increase in QBC useage and efficiency etc etc,very few of their number appear to concede that Dublin does not have a SINGLE functioning Quality Bus CORRIDOR.

What we have are several stretches of Bus Lane connected to a varying degree of efficiency with each other.

Another major problem for JJ and thousands of other Bus Users is a paranoia with the use of O Connell St for as many Bus Routes as possible.
This unhealthy fixation can see individual Bus Journeys take up to 45 minutes to travel from Parnell Sq West via Granby Row and Lwr Dorset St to Eccles St.
There is a very blatant cause for this unacceptable situation.

The outbound clearway along Dorset St does not commence until 16.00 (!!) which allows this vital artery to be reduced to a single outbound lane

This egg-timer effect is then compounded by a stretch of outbound Bus-Lane from Blessington St to Eccles St which is totally counterproductive as it merely serves to delay the outbound Buses as the Cars attempt to filter into the single overcrowded remaining general traffic lane.

Once Eccles St is reached the situation can be dealt with in a more controlled manner as there is an abundance of space for vehicles to filter into.

Simple and Effective IMMEDIATE fix is to :

1. Extend the Lwr Dorset St Clearway hours to 14.00-1900 (Prsently 16.00 start)
2. Remove or Adjust operating hours of Bus Lane between Blessington St-Eccles St to allow full two-lane use during evening peak.

So JJ when you find yourself in this gap again try and get in touch with somebody around the City Centre area and get them to do a Bus Count of routes sitting immobile between Parnell Sq West and North Circular Road......

The answer will surprise you I fear....

Mind you the City Council DO have a plan as part of the BIG Picture which will address these issues when they have grown beyond all proportion.
The CC plan will take approx another 2 years to complete etc etc ....

My suggestion,simple as it may seem can be implimented THIS evening if anybody was bothered..... :cool:

shltter

AlekSmart wrote:

JJ`s observations cut to the core of the principle of the Quality Bus "CORRIDOR".

Whilst Dublin Bus and the various statutory and regulatory authorities are oft to be found waffling on about the massive increase in QBC useage and efficiency etc etc,very few of their number appear to concede that Dublin does not have a SINGLE functioning Quality Bus CORRIDOR.

What we have are several stretches of Bus Lane connected to a varying degree of efficiency with each other.

Another major problem for JJ and thousands of other Bus Users is a paranoia with the use of O Connell St for as many Bus Routes as possible.
This unhealthy fixation can see individual Bus Journeys take up to 45 minutes to travel from Parnell Sq West via Granby Row and Lwr Dorset St to Eccles St.
There is a very blatant cause for this unacceptable situation.

The outbound clearway along Dorset St does not commence until 16.00 (!!) which allows this vital artery to be reduced to a single outbound lane

This egg-timer effect is then compounded by a stretch of outbound Bus-Lane from Blessington St to Eccles St which is totally counterproductive as it merely serves to delay the outbound Buses as the Cars attempt to filter into the single overcrowded remaining general traffic lane.

Once Eccles St is reached the situation can be dealt with in a more controlled manner as there is an abundance of space for vehicles to filter into.

Simple and Effective IMMEDIATE fix is to :

1. Extend the Lwr Dorset St Clearway hours to 14.00-1900 (Prsently 16.00 start)
2. Remove or Adjust operating hours of Bus Lane between Blessington St-Eccles St to allow full two-lane use during evening peak.

So JJ when you find yourself in this gap again try and get in touch with somebody around the City Centre area and get them to do a Bus Count of routes sitting immobile between Parnell Sq West and North Circular Road......

The answer will surprise you I fear....

Mind you the City Council DO have a plan as part of the BIG Picture which will address these issues when they have grown beyond all proportion.
The CC plan will take approx another 2 years to complete etc etc ....

My suggestion,simple as it may seem can be implimented THIS evening if anybody was bothered..... :cool:

The problem is that the O'Connell St area is where the vast majority of people actually want to go
There is no point in dragging people down Capel St or Church St if they actually want to go to the O'Connell St area. Turning the Buses down Gardiner st would subject them to the Horror that is Beresford Place and then the Quays

Can I ask what route you would suggest for the 16/19/13 etc that would avoid O'Connell St and bring people where they actually want to go
It is not like there are a number of streets sitting empty that could be used in fact one of the routes the OP is complaining about does no go into O'Connell St or Parnell Sq and actually joins Dorset St after Eccles St namely the 41s which use Gardiner St.


This is the usual I have a solution it is just everybody else is too thick to see it that goes on a lot here.:rolleyes:

I wait with baited breath for your routing solutions that will solve the traffic crisis in one foul swoop.

shltter

jjbrien wrote:

I work in Santry in Woodford Business Park which is beside Airways Business Park on the old Airport Road in Santry. Over the last 7 to 10 days the service in the evenings provided by Dublin Bus has got worse to an extent the there does be no bus. I have contacted Dublin Bus but got the normal run around about it. When I finsh work norwally at 5pm i can normally cath 2 or 3 diffrent busess to get me into the city (41, 746 or 16A). These busses have not been turing up latley. Yesterday there was no bus for 45 mins and when it did show up it was full. There seems to be an issue with not having busses latley or not enough drivers to drive them. This is a terreible situation. One of my colleges lives in blackrock and it normally takes her 1 hours and 5 mins to get home it how takes 2 to 3 hours which is not acceptable due to no busses in service in Santry heading for the city.
Has anybody else noticed this latley?

Your problem is that you are going in a direction that is against the main flow at that time of the evening
The Buses that are due to leave Swords and the Airport and should pick you up are stuck in traffic on the way out of town when they get to their outside destination they are late.
The controller is left with a situation that if he allows the buses to operate back in towards town he will be left with huge holes in the service in the direction that most people are heading ie out of town

I suggest that you get the number of Summerhill Bus Depot and ring the controller give him a bit of a bollocking and tell him that you and other have been waiting X ammount of time
At the very least you will make him aware that people are waiting for the buses he is diverting back into town
If you do not complain then the chances are that he will presume his decisions are not affecting anyone.
BTW complaining once probably will not work

_Kaiser_

shltter wrote:

Your problem is that you are going in a direction that is against the main flow at that time of the evening
The Buses that are due to leave Swords and the Airport and should pick you up are stuck in traffic on the way out of town when they get to their outside destination they are late.
The controller is left with a situation that if he allows the buses to operate back in towards town he will be left with huge holes in the service in the direction that most people are heading ie out of town

I suggest that you get the number of Summerhill Bus Depot and ring the controller give him a bit of a bollocking and tell him that you and other have been waiting X ammount of time
At the very least you will make him aware that people are waiting for the buses he is diverting back into town
If you do not complain then the chances are that he will presume his decisions are not affecting anyone.
BTW complaining once probably will not work

Well from personal experience, anytime I rang the depot asking to speak to the route controller, I was told he was "out on the road" and no they couldn't put me through (of course) so this is likely another waste of time.
Even if they do acknowledge the problem, the response will basically be "tough luck" cause that bus didn't run, there was no driver available etc but no actual solution and/or improvement of the service in the future. It's THIS attitude that is the biggest problem in CIE.

Note also that calling to chase these individuals to do their jobs is charged at peak rates most of the time... will Dublin Bus refund these calls? (rhetorical question - of course they won't!).

AlekSmart

Oh dear oh dear oh etc..
Shltter really has taken my rant to heart...:(
However on the basis that ANY discussion has to be better than simply stagnating in the O Connell St Wilderness we presently have lets move on Class....

Poor oul JJ`s problem is indeed one of travelling in the wrong direction (For Dublin Bus) at the wrong time (For JJ).
As Shllter points out most of the Buzzez that JJ SHOULD be catching are still Northbound when they SHOULD be Southbound(Again).

Incredible as it may seem many of those people Dublin Bus brings through O Connell St do not have any real desire or reason to be there.
Dublin Bus (and the Civic Authorities) do not currently offer any alternative to a spot of Nelsons Pillaring or Spire Spotting for those who might have business in An Lar but not necessarily OC St.

A leisurely stroll around the West End of Parnell St/Capel St/Bolton St/Church St /Smithfield will reveal an Urban Renewal project now well advanced with many densely populated Public and Private resedential developments containing the raw material of Public Transport...Peeple.

Apart from "Oddball" routes such as the 83 there is very little provision for any resident or visitor to that area who might be willing to give the oul Bus a whirl...

As for alternative routings,well its a question of getting outside of our present OC St fixated box and making a decision to offer and promote these alternatives.

Consider: 16/16A.
(a)

Left at Bottom of Georges St.
Right at Parliament St- Contra Flow across P St Bridge-Contra Flow Capel St-Bolton St-resume Current route At Dorset St/Granby Row.

(b)

As above to P St Bridge- Right to Nth Quays-Left to Jervis St ( Interchange with WestBound routes now terminating ON Jervis St adjacent to J St Centre)
Right to Parnell St-Left into (1) Kings Inn St or (2) Domnick St Lwr.-Resume present route at Dorset St.

While this suggestion flies totally counter to the current operational thinking it does open up a new routing through City Centre areas which have NO public Bus service at all despite being as Central as Grafton St or OC St itself.

Remember Shltter,this is only a suggestion based upon personal obsevation without the doubtless benefit of a Consultancy Study etc.

I am very conscious of the numbers of Dublin Bus passengers who having left Buses in OC St then trundle off down Henry St and Mary St to places such as Roches Stores,Debenhams or the Jervis Centre itself, not to mention those who progress further to the more colourful establishments along Capel St-Marys Lane.....(Excellent long-established Tool Shops).

Taking a Measuring Stick any Transport Consultant might be wide eyed to discover that such popular locations are NEARER to the currently Busless Jervis St than they are to "Historic" OC St.

Whether Dublin City Council and Dublin Bus can continue their One City-One Street principle is a moot point as if we look at how the rest of the City and County has developed we can see how both Local Authorities and Dublin Bus have been totally wrong footed.

For example,Is the daily grind which Dublin Bus and Mortons are currently forced to offer West Dublin as a Public Transport alternative the result of somebody actually sitting down and Planning it this way ?

Could (or SHOULD) the Public Transport Companies have been more strident and demanding in their approach to complying with such anti-social nonsense as Gardai forcing fully laden Buses out of a Bus Lane in order to comply with a short stretch of Hatched Marking ,thereby imposing greater exposure to danger and added delay to an already unacceptably long commute ?

:eek: However,continuing in my quest for World Public Transport domination I have to insert one caveat....
Nothing....Not one small itsey bitsey millimetre of progress will occur unless The CITY COUNCIL is prepared to surrender a substantial amount of Kerbside Space currently reserved for On Street Pay and Display Parking.:eek:

The current City Centre On Street Car Parking arrangements are now operating in a totally counterproductive and anti-social manner (UNLESS You are a Car Driver).

The Dangers which are clearly evident on Parnell Sq West as some 30% of Dublin City`s Peak Time Bus Services attempt to perform loading operations in the middle lane of a National Primary route are not,to my mind acceptable in any professional sense.

The existence of Safe Bus Stance space along Parnell Sq North and along the present nose to kerb parking Western reservation is something which should be Forced down Dublin City Councils throat.

Similar Safety Compromises exist all over the City,
Nassau St.
Stephens Green.
Aungier St.
Sth Leinster St, to name a few.

These locations all share a common denominator in the City Councils determination to prioritize the On Street Car Parking requirements of a tiny proportion of City Users over the vast numbers of persons prepared to utilize the option of Public Transport.

Presently Dublin City Council is only too happy to have Dublin Bus stuff up to 50% of its Peak Time vehicle movements along OC St cos it means the Private Car can retain its Kerb Space primacy everywhere else.

Another important aspect of any improvement suggestion has to encompass Dublin Bus (With Department of Transport Approval) making Serious Changes to its current anachronistic Fare Collection arrangements,particularly in the An Lar region.

Any casual observer watching a 3,11,16/16A 19,or indeed any Bus at peak time will be struck by the awful stagnancy of the process as each individual boarding passenger performs a time honoured ritual of fumbling,rooting for and then closely inspecting each individual coin before slowly,painstakingly inserting each one into the Box. ( Bear in mind that this exercise in masochism will be carried on in the MIDDLE Lane of Parnell Sq West and U begin to see why Insurers look permanently worried)

This nonsense was unsustainable as soon as Bus Conductors were dispensed with and today is one of the prime causes of poor oul JJ`s extended wait on the wrong side of the tracks.

Well there yer have it shltter,my 2c worth part 1.
I hope that u can now unbate ur breath and,God forbid begin the time honoured Irish process of tearin lumps out of it and heaping scorn over my effigy etc....

Or maybe not......does Dublin Bus have a route planning office....:eek: ??

Seconds away ....Round 2 Ding Ding !!!!

A Dub in Glasgo

I see nothing has really changed with this type of thing since the late 1980's. I used to get the number 13 bus from Ballymun to Leeson Street for work. Plenty of occasions, I was left standing at bus stop in the evening whilst I waited for the timetabled 13 back to Ballymun. They never showed up and I later found out that DB was starting the 13 in the evening peak from the city centre out in both directions therefore the bus that should have been travelling back from Palmerston Park to Poppintree was in fact running empty to the city centre and then returning as the 13 from city centre to Palmerston Park!! They never told anybody either!

I cannot believe they are still doing this with other routes.

If a controller in DB is not aware that people are waiting for a timetabled bus, he should not be in his job.

shltter

AlekSmart wrote:

Oh dear oh dear oh etc..
Shltter really has taken my rant to heart...:(
However on the basis that ANY discussion has to be better than simply stagnating in the O Connell St Wilderness we presently have lets move on Class....

Poor oul JJ`s problem is indeed one of travelling in the wrong direction (For Dublin Bus) at the wrong time (For JJ).
As Shllter points out most of the Buzzez that JJ SHOULD be catching are still Northbound when they SHOULD be Southbound(Again).

Incredible as it may seem many of those people Dublin Bus brings through O Connell St do not have any real desire or reason to be there.
Dublin Bus (and the Civic Authorities) do not currently offer any alternative to a spot of Nelsons Pillaring or Spire Spotting for those who might have business in An Lar but not necessarily OC St.

A leisurely stroll around the West End of Parnell St/Capel St/Bolton St/Church St /Smithfield will reveal an Urban Renewal project now well advanced with many densely populated Public and Private resedential developments containing the raw material of Public Transport...Peeple.

Apart from "Oddball" routes such as the 83 there is very little provision for any resident or visitor to that area who might be willing to give the oul Bus a whirl...

As for alternative routings,well its a question of getting outside of our present OC St fixated box and making a decision to offer and promote these alternatives.

Consider: 16/16A.
(a)

Left at Bottom of Georges St.
Right at Parliament St- Contra Flow across P St Bridge-Contra Flow Capel St-Bolton St-resume Current route At Dorset St/Granby Row.

(b)

As above to P St Bridge- Right to Nth Quays-Left to Jervis St ( Interchange with WestBound routes now terminating ON Jervis St adjacent to J St Centre)
Right to Parnell St-Left into (1) Kings Inn St or (2) Domnick St Lwr.-Resume present route at Dorset St.

While this suggestion flies totally counter to the current operational thinking it does open up a new routing through City Centre areas which have NO public Bus service at all despite being as Central as Grafton St or OC St itself.

Remember Shltter,this is only a suggestion based upon personal obsevation without the doubtless benefit of a Consultancy Study etc.

I am very conscious of the numbers of Dublin Bus passengers who having left Buses in OC St then trundle off down Henry St and Mary St to places such as Roches Stores,Debenhams or the Jervis Centre itself, not to mention those who progress further to the more colourful establishments along Capel St-Marys Lane.....(Excellent long-established Tool Shops).

Taking a Measuring Stick any Transport Consultant might be wide eyed to discover that such popular locations are NEARER to the currently Busless Jervis St than they are to "Historic" OC St.

Whether Dublin City Council and Dublin Bus can continue their One City-One Street principle is a moot point as if we look at how the rest of the City and County has developed we can see how both Local Authorities and Dublin Bus have been totally wrong footed.

For example,Is the daily grind which Dublin Bus and Mortons are currently forced to offer West Dublin as a Public Transport alternative the result of somebody actually sitting down and Planning it this way ?

Could (or SHOULD) the Public Transport Companies have been more strident and demanding in their approach to complying with such anti-social nonsense as Gardai forcing fully laden Buses out of a Bus Lane in order to comply with a short stretch of Hatched Marking ,thereby imposing greater exposure to danger and added delay to an already unacceptably long commute ?

:eek: However,continuing in my quest for World Public Transport domination I have to insert one caveat....
Nothing....Not one small itsey bitsey millimetre of progress will occur unless The CITY COUNCIL is prepared to surrender a substantial amount of Kerbside Space currently reserved for On Street Pay and Display Parking.:eek:

The current City Centre On Street Car Parking arrangements are now operating in a totally counterproductive and anti-social manner (UNLESS You are a Car Driver).

The Dangers which are clearly evident on Parnell Sq West as some 30% of Dublin City`s Peak Time Bus Services attempt to perform loading operations in the middle lane of a National Primary route are not,to my mind acceptable in any professional sense.

The existence of Safe Bus Stance space along Parnell Sq North and along the present nose to kerb parking Western reservation is something which should be Forced down Dublin City Councils throat.

Similar Safety Compromises exist all over the City,
Nassau St.
Stephens Green.
Aungier St.
Sth Leinster St, to name a few.

These locations all share a common denominator in the City Councils determination to prioritize the On Street Car Parking requirements of a tiny proportion of City Users over the vast numbers of persons prepared to utilize the option of Public Transport.

Presently Dublin City Council is only too happy to have Dublin Bus stuff up to 50% of its Peak Time vehicle movements along OC St cos it means the Private Car can retain its Kerb Space primacy everywhere else.

Another important aspect of any improvement suggestion has to encompass Dublin Bus (With Department of Transport Approval) making Serious Changes to its current anachronistic Fare Collection arrangements,particularly in the An Lar region.

Any casual observer watching a 3,11,16/16A 19,or indeed any Bus at peak time will be struck by the awful stagnancy of the process as each individual boarding passenger performs a time honoured ritual of fumbling,rooting for and then closely inspecting each individual coin before slowly,painstakingly inserting each one into the Box. ( Bear in mind that this exercise in masochism will be carried on in the MIDDLE Lane of Parnell Sq West and U begin to see why Insurers look permanently worried)

This nonsense was unsustainable as soon as Bus Conductors were dispensed with and today is one of the prime causes of poor oul JJ`s extended wait on the wrong side of the tracks.

Well there yer have it shltter,my 2c worth part 1.
I hope that u can now unbate ur breath and,God forbid begin the time honoured Irish process of tearin lumps out of it and heaping scorn over my effigy etc....

Or maybe not......does Dublin Bus have a route planning office....:eek: ??

Seconds away ....Round 2 Ding Ding !!!!

Ok only have a little time

But Quickly Parliament st and Capel St cannot cope with the traffic in them already let alone putting in a Contra flow bus lane That said if the on street parking was removed that would improve matters but removing those is not in the power of DB
Not to mention that you would be making the buses queue with the rest of the traffic that has to turn left at the bottom of Georges St
And that is completely ignoring the fact that the vast bulk of people boarding the 16 etc heading North and South do so in the area from Dame St to Parnell Square.
The Parnell Square situation is made worse because it is the handing over area if some of the routes had a different handing over area it might make the situation a little better

O Connell St is the centre of the city and it is not surprising that people want to go there or that DB takes people there
DB can not decide to bring these people to Jervis St because there is some nice tool shops in Capel St.
Look at the routes that come down along the Quays the vast majority of people do not get off at liffey St they get off Nr O Connell St that is where they want to go.

It is not hard to imagine the derision that people would show if DB did not take people to the centre of the City but dropped them them outside of McQuillans.

Look at the Routings for the LUAS for example the decision to stop one of the Luas lines up in Stephens Green has been lambasted and the new Airport route will run under O Connell St.
It is not that DB has a fixation with the Street it is where the people are and want to go.


On the ticketing DB has all of the fleet fitted with new ticket machines and Smart card readers the system is ready to go unfortunately it is not just a decision for DB and the DOT made a mess of the whole smart card scheme.

shltter

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

If a controller in DB is not aware that people are waiting for a timetabled bus, he should not be in his job.

The controller is trying to organise the available fleet to carry the maximum number of people. At that time of the day those people are in town trying to get home.
If there are no complaints when he routes the buses back into town then he will assume he has done the right thing.
Of course he will be aware that there will be some people waiting for the bus but it is a balance between the 10 or 20 wanting to go into town and the 100+ wanting to go the other way.
The controller may not be controlling all the routes that pass a particular stop so he may not be aware that a different controller has done something similar on a different route.
It is a balance if he has an Inspector telling him that there are 100 + people waiting in O'Connell st and no one complains when he moves the buses around well he will continue to do that.

PS I cant believe I'm defending Controllers

fly_agaric

shltter wrote:

DB can not decide to bring these people to Jervis St because there is some nice tool shops in Capel St.

Why not if it suits the road layout, traffic etc (don't know if it does??).
During the LUAS construction (hurrah for the LUAS! LOL) DB moved many of the W. (and N.?) Dublin busses from the shopping areas of Abbey, O'Connell St. etc so they stop (and board) in Dame steet beside alot of poncy overpriced cafes and restaurants and luxury/designer goods shops! I don't believe they said the move was going to be permanent at the time but, hey, maybe that was their little surprise for the customer...:)

MiniD

I think the two problems here are that JJ has the misfortune of wanting to travel INTO town at peak hours. This same problem exists for passengers coming from Citywest, Tallaght, Sandyford, Swords, Cherrywood etc. Even though there has been massive development at these employment hotspots, there is no dedicated public transport, and prople are forced to catch the bus passing these areas after it has performed it's outward journey, which is usually delayed.
The other problem which exists here is the amount of cars on the road and no priority for buses. I sometimes think we need a London style congestion charge for Dublin at peak hours.

AlekSmart

"But Quickly Parliament st and Capel St cannot cope with the traffic in them already let alone putting in a Contra flow bus lane That said if the on street parking was removed that would improve matters but removing those is not in the power of DB
Not to mention that you would be making the buses queue with the rest of the traffic that has to turn left at the bottom of Georges St
And that is completely ignoring the fact that the vast bulk of people boarding the 16 etc heading North and South do so in the area from Dame St to Parnell Square.
The Parnell Square situation is made worse because it is the handing over area if some of the routes had a different handing over area it might make the situation a little better

O Connell St is the centre of the city and it is not surprising that people want to go there or that DB takes people there
DB can not decide to bring these people to Jervis St because there is some nice tool shops in Capel St.
Look at the routes that come down along the Quays the vast majority of people do not get off at liffey St they get off Nr O Connell St that is where they want to go."

Now as the fellah said we`re sucking Diesel.

The essence of shllter`s response recognises that this and ANY other proposal regarding Bus Service improvements are TOTALLY dependent upon a high degree of co-operation from the OTHER statutory bodies which go to making up a Living City

The situation which currently pertains in Dublin sees Public Transport USERS as the losers on every front.
It is probably far worse now than at any time in the mechanized past.
Dublin Bus,for example has never had as large an operational fleet,yet has never had as little clout at the place where its most needed.

Take for example the issue of Bus Stops.
Nobody really gave much thought to the actual mechanics of Bus Stop location until the awful events on Wellington Quay.
Then suddenly we saw a flurry of concerned activity as the various agencies flew into a tizzy to try and discover which of them had ultimate responsibility.
The general Concensus now seems to be in favour of The Gardai as being all powerful in relation to Bus Stop allocation and design.

All well and good as it may well explain the somewhat ecentric spacings and allocations which litter Dublin in a seemingly ad-hoc arrangement.

It may well explain for example why when Dublin Bus initially introduced High Capacity Articulated Buses onto the 10 route it took so long for the penny to drop that it`s quite difficult to fit an 18 Metre long articulated vehicle into a space designed for a 10 metre one.

Having battered it`s collective head against a brick wall for almost a year Dublin Bus finally decided discretion was the better part of valour and gave up.

Withdrawing the Articulated Buses from the 10 route and dispersing them to other further flung reaches of it`s empire.
The interesting thing here is that a mere month AFTER the Artic`s came off the 10 route,Dublin City Council began a programme of Bus Bay Lenghtening and Modification along the Northern Section of which well known Bus route...?? (Your starter for 10 perhaps..?) :eek:

The immense extra capability of this 20 vehicle fleet on the 10 route was essentially flung away as firstly the City Council abjectly failed to cater for the needs of a fundamentally different Bus Type.

Then Dublin Bus does exactly the same by not introducing a "Trial" of contactless ticketing on the Route to coincide with the then new buses.

What one was left with was hapless drivers sitting immobile in,yes you`ve guessed it...O Connell St,with the "Trailer" of their Bus stuck out at a drunken angle thereby blocking the following traffic,whilst the timeless ritual of crossing palms with silver was carried on,and on ,and on....

Thankfully all of that Pain has now been put behind them,and Dublin Bus has now moved on to 12 metre High Capacity Tri-Axle double decks.

Again we see a substantial capacity increase per vehicle with great benefits in productivity terms for the company and its customers....

Well,that`s the theory anyway.....the reality is that their much bigger Bus has a single set of much Smaller Doors and a high performance Ticketing system which is severely hampered by having to cope with a somewhat outmoded analogue Magnetic Strip system dating from the early 1980`s.

This shaky combo is the source of much of the beeping and whistling which passengers are subjected to as their Magnetic Strip tickets misread or otherwise malfunction.
Once this occurs the Reader unit shuts down for 40 seconds and then reprogrammes itself....whilst the Driver resorts to Quill and Ink to validate the ticket....Just the sort of thing a modern customer orientated transport undertaking requires during it`s peak time operations.

The result is one of the slowest loading public transport modes one is ever likely to travel on outside of a Slow Boat to China.

However the net effects of these silly issues assume far greater significance when they occur on Buses now operating along an O Connell St which is narrower than heretofore and which is carrying more Bus Routes along its length than ever before...

The reality now is that if O Connell St sneezes then the majority of Dublin Buses network goes into a state of shivers which can last for hours.

Why Dublin Bus do not attempt to Relaunch the 10 or 46A QBC using the 20 Tri-Axle Double Decks And the 20 Articulated Single Decks on a flat Fare basis with a single cash fare of €2 and €1 with ONLY pre-paid tickets recognized for the other lesser fare values....
This relaunch would also have to move away from the current Peak fixation and instead see the company maintain at the very minimum a 10 minute headway OFF-Peak....Quite literally throwing resources at the route.
If the City can combine this enhanced service level with draconian measures to restrict Private Car access and parking then maybe,just maybe attitudes will begin to change.

Albert Gubay was quite correct when he started the 3 Guys grocery market concept...Pack em High-Sell em Cheap.

If Dublin Bus can get its shyt together on the issue of combining Hi-Capacity and Hi-Frequency with Hi-Speed Boarding then it will have a very strong marketable product indeed and one which will attract punters by the shedload.

The present Hi Capacity,Variable Frequency and Excruciatingly Slow boarding ensures that the savvy business minded commuter will never view the Dublin Bus product as anything more than a stopgap until they amass enough money for a little Suv of their very own.

The sad reality for JJ and many thousands of other discommoded commuters is that Dublin Bus of itself is capable of very far reaching reactions and innovation in its services.
Sadly for its customers however,the company appears to be required to seek and secure a Ministerial or Civil Service nod for every leak it takes.
This unsurprisingly results in incredible delays for even the simplest service alteration or improvement with No consideration whatever for the needs of the travelling punter.

The only Customer friendly answer as I see it is for Dublin Bus itself to get far more Bolshie and use the immense leverage which 160 Million Passenger Journeys per anum gives it.

As for the O Connell St fixation..well I suspect the imminent Luas link-up works are going to ensure a significant change will be FORCED upon the millions of passengers clamouring to be dropped off at the Pillar....

murphaph

Relying on members of the public to phone in and complain seems a 'hit and miss' way of ascertaining whether or not a controller's decision was correct. Surely it would be better to radio individual bus drivers on the outbound and ask them to look across the road at the oposite bus stops and give rough estimates of waiting would be passengers.

Alek, you really should be the traffic Tsar! I'm one of those who would generally be headed towards the Capel St end of Henry/Mary/Abbey streets, there's actually a lot more going on that end than the O'Connell St end.

The City Council is more responsible for the situation than DB in my book. They don't really care about people who live in Fingal, South Dublin County or Dun Laoghaire Rathdown, so providing decent corridors to these places is not in their interests (or so they believe). They's rather the revenue from parking. Having said that, the city council gets no rates payments from vast swathes of it's are of control as government buildings are not liable for rates!

LookingFor

Just to add to the moaning, the 11 buses from Wadelai Park seem to virtually disappear after 5 also. I've noticed one sometimes pops up at 5.05, but asides from that I've seen absolutely none show up for an hour between 5 and 6. They're supposed to go every 15 minutes around that time, obviously because it's rush hour. It's really pretty bad because people leaving DCU at 5 will likely miss the 5.05 bus (it takes about 10 minutes to cross campus for most people to get to the stop), and huge queues are left to form at the stop then waiting for a bus..I've missed many many trains at drumcondra trying to get home because of this.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

Relying on members of the public to phone in and complain seems a 'hit and miss' way of ascertaining whether or not a controller's decision was correct. Surely it would be better to radio individual bus drivers on the outbound and ask them to look across the road at the oposite bus stops and give rough estimates of waiting would be passengers.

Alek, you really should be the traffic Tsar! I'm one of those who would generally be headed towards the Capel St end of Henry/Mary/Abbey streets, there's actually a lot more going on that end than the O'Connell St end.

The City Council is more responsible for the situation than DB in my book. They don't really care about people who live in Fingal, South Dublin County or Dun Laoghaire Rathdown, so providing decent corridors to these places is not in their interests (or so they believe). They's rather the revenue from parking. Having said that, the city council gets no rates payments from vast swathes of it's are of control as government buildings are not liable for rates!

Of course there is no way of telling what particular bus if any they are waiting for by looking at them.
But controllers will often ask drivers for feedback

shltter

AlekSmart wrote:

"But Quickly Parliament st and Capel St cannot cope with the traffic in them already let alone putting in a Contra flow bus lane That said if the on street parking was removed that would improve matters but removing those is not in the power of DB
Not to mention that you would be making the buses queue with the rest of the traffic that has to turn left at the bottom of Georges St
And that is completely ignoring the fact that the vast bulk of people boarding the 16 etc heading North and South do so in the area from Dame St to Parnell Square.
The Parnell Square situation is made worse because it is the handing over area if some of the routes had a different handing over area it might make the situation a little better

O Connell St is the centre of the city and it is not surprising that people want to go there or that DB takes people there
DB can not decide to bring these people to Jervis St because there is some nice tool shops in Capel St.
Look at the routes that come down along the Quays the vast majority of people do not get off at liffey St they get off Nr O Connell St that is where they want to go."

Now as the fellah said we`re sucking Diesel.

The essence of shllter`s response recognises that this and ANY other proposal regarding Bus Service improvements are TOTALLY dependent upon a high degree of co-operation from the OTHER statutory bodies which go to making up a Living City

The situation which currently pertains in Dublin sees Public Transport USERS as the losers on every front.
It is probably far worse now than at any time in the mechanized past.
Dublin Bus,for example has never had as large an operational fleet,yet has never had as little clout at the place where its most needed.

Take for example the issue of Bus Stops.
Nobody really gave much thought to the actual mechanics of Bus Stop location until the awful events on Wellington Quay.
Then suddenly we saw a flurry of concerned activity as the various agencies flew into a tizzy to try and discover which of them had ultimate responsibility.
The general Concensus now seems to be in favour of The Gardai as being all powerful in relation to Bus Stop allocation and design.

All well and good as it may well explain the somewhat ecentric spacings and allocations which litter Dublin in a seemingly ad-hoc arrangement.

It may well explain for example why when Dublin Bus initially introduced High Capacity Articulated Buses onto the 10 route it took so long for the penny to drop that it`s quite difficult to fit an 18 Metre long articulated vehicle into a space designed for a 10 metre one.

Having battered it`s collective head against a brick wall for almost a year Dublin Bus finally decided discretion was the better part of valour and gave up.

Withdrawing the Articulated Buses from the 10 route and dispersing them to other further flung reaches of it`s empire.
The interesting thing here is that a mere month AFTER the Artic`s came off the 10 route,Dublin City Council began a programme of Bus Bay Lenghtening and Modification along the Northern Section of which well known Bus route...?? (Your starter for 10 perhaps..?) :eek:

The immense extra capability of this 20 vehicle fleet on the 10 route was essentially flung away as firstly the City Council abjectly failed to cater for the needs of a fundamentally different Bus Type.

Then Dublin Bus does exactly the same by not introducing a "Trial" of contactless ticketing on the Route to coincide with the then new buses.

What one was left with was hapless drivers sitting immobile in,yes you`ve guessed it...O Connell St,with the "Trailer" of their Bus stuck out at a drunken angle thereby blocking the following traffic,whilst the timeless ritual of crossing palms with silver was carried on,and on ,and on....

Thankfully all of that Pain has now been put behind them,and Dublin Bus has now moved on to 12 metre High Capacity Tri-Axle double decks.

Again we see a substantial capacity increase per vehicle with great benefits in productivity terms for the company and its customers....

Well,that`s the theory anyway.....the reality is that their much bigger Bus has a single set of much Smaller Doors and a high performance Ticketing system which is severely hampered by having to cope with a somewhat outmoded analogue Magnetic Strip system dating from the early 1980`s.

This shaky combo is the source of much of the beeping and whistling which passengers are subjected to as their Magnetic Strip tickets misread or otherwise malfunction.
Once this occurs the Reader unit shuts down for 40 seconds and then reprogrammes itself....whilst the Driver resorts to Quill and Ink to validate the ticket....Just the sort of thing a modern customer orientated transport undertaking requires during it`s peak time operations.

The result is one of the slowest loading public transport modes one is ever likely to travel on outside of a Slow Boat to China.

However the net effects of these silly issues assume far greater significance when they occur on Buses now operating along an O Connell St which is narrower than heretofore and which is carrying more Bus Routes along its length than ever before...

The reality now is that if O Connell St sneezes then the majority of Dublin Buses network goes into a state of shivers which can last for hours.

Why Dublin Bus do not attempt to Relaunch the 10 or 46A QBC using the 20 Tri-Axle Double Decks And the 20 Articulated Single Decks on a flat Fare basis with a single cash fare of €2 and €1 with ONLY pre-paid tickets recognized for the other lesser fare values....
This relaunch would also have to move away from the current Peak fixation and instead see the company maintain at the very minimum a 10 minute headway OFF-Peak....Quite literally throwing resources at the route.
If the City can combine this enhanced service level with draconian measures to restrict Private Car access and parking then maybe,just maybe attitudes will begin to change.

Albert Gubay was quite correct when he started the 3 Guys grocery market concept...Pack em High-Sell em Cheap.

If Dublin Bus can get its shyt together on the issue of combining Hi-Capacity and Hi-Frequency with Hi-Speed Boarding then it will have a very strong marketable product indeed and one which will attract punters by the shedload.

The present Hi Capacity,Variable Frequency and Excruciatingly Slow boarding ensures that the savvy business minded commuter will never view the Dublin Bus product as anything more than a stopgap until they amass enough money for a little Suv of their very own.

The sad reality for JJ and many thousands of other discommoded commuters is that Dublin Bus of itself is capable of very far reaching reactions and innovation in its services.
Sadly for its customers however,the company appears to be required to seek and secure a Ministerial or Civil Service nod for every leak it takes.
This unsurprisingly results in incredible delays for even the simplest service alteration or improvement with No consideration whatever for the needs of the travelling punter.

The only Customer friendly answer as I see it is for Dublin Bus itself to get far more Bolshie and use the immense leverage which 160 Million Passenger Journeys per anum gives it.

As for the O Connell St fixation..well I suspect the imminent Luas link-up works are going to ensure a significant change will be FORCED upon the millions of passengers clamouring to be dropped off at the Pillar....

I think you are starting to realise that most of the problems and even your solutions are not within the power of DB

Just on the general rerouting issue even if your suggestion was followed the traffic blackspot that you identified as eccles street would still catch those buses even if they managed to run up the streets you suggested unhindered (which I doubt)
O'Connell st is not the problem in fact with the measures like banning the left turn from Dorset St and the Right turn from Georges St Buses dont really get held up as much in O' Connell st per se
There is also an additional benefit that having a large number of Bus routes that are heading in the same general direction that is that those only going a short distance have a large choice of which bus to take for example those going to Drumcondra this means that the buses dont get full of people making short journeys to the detriment of those making longer journeys short journey passengers are spread out amongst numerous routes.

On the flat fare issue DB applied to simplify the fare structure and introduce some flat fares but were turned down by the powers that be in the DOT

AlekSmart

Still here sluggin it out for the old Dublin Bus Motto......"Changin wit de City"....indeed.

The Eccles St difficulty was a particularly bad example of the total lack of any worthwhile co-operation between Dublin Bus and Dublin City Council.

It encompassed The City Council`s well flagged decision to carry out Major Water Main works over the weekend of the 14th and 15th of October.
These works actually began on the Friday evening and were indeed MAJOR.

The salient point here is that in spite of a four star **** rating indicating "Serious Traffic Disruption" Dublin Bus head office took no action in relation to maintaining a safe operating environment for either its Own Staff OR its Customers.

The actuality of the weekend was that Dublin Bus insisted upon maintaining "Normal Service" through what was effectively a battlefield.
The sight of laden Double Deck Buses passing within millimeteres of a workmans head as he laboured away in an unsupported trench is not something which any supposed Professional Local Authority or Bus Service Provider can justify.

There is little point is publishing a series of warnings concerning Traffic Disruption if the largest operator of Large Passenger Carrying vehicles in the City then chooses to ignore it as merely scaremongering.

Anybody lucky enough to have a video camera would have had a field day as Cabra Bound Buses attempting to turn left into Eccles st were reveresed back by a labourer as his erstwhile colleague called on cars approaching from the opposite rear whilst all the while the Traffic Signals carried on normal pasing as if all was hunky dory...It was`nt.

It would be a very interesting excercise indeed to see if any forward facing on-bus video footage from the northbound routes still exists for that weekend or whether,having "Gotten away with it",the parties can carry on as normal.

As shllter sez,I do indeed appreciate that much of this discussion is merely combustible gas in relation to Dublin Bus.
As the prime public Bus Service provider it`s needs and desires have consistently dropped down the scale on Dublin City Councils "To Do" lists.

For all the modern PR puff,the standing of Dublin Bus in terms of managing its off bus infrastructure is at rock bottom in relation to the somewhat clearer function it possessed when it was Dublin City Bus Services arm of CIE.

The present confusion,indecision and resultant inertia rergarding Centre City Bus Stance allocation remains a prime example of the lack of any co-operation at operational level between the Civic and Transport authorities.

However those areas where the Company SHOULD be standing on its own merits such as the Flat Fare one are swiftly buried.

The companys attempt to introduce a much simplified fare structure should have succeeded.
The introduction of a baseline €1 fare available over a wider area was recognized by SOME sections of Dublin Bus management as simple good sense.
A commercial gamble,yes but only in the context of a seriously flawed Government Public Transport subvention policy.

What occurred after that fateful weekend was pure farce.
Having had the new fare structure publicised and it`s Ticket Machines modified presumably with the full approval of the Dept of Transport etc the company then recieves a blast from the then Chairman of CIE who having recieved "Representations" from various local political figures "requests" the Dublin Bus board to "reconsider" its innovative (for It) move.

To make matters worse and to underline the message of who ACTUALLY runs the show,the company then is prevailed upon to operate 2 FREE TRAVEL weekends in abject apology for attempting to IMPROVE its structures for the benefit of ALL its customers.

This is the stuff of Central American banana republics not a forward looking member of the European Community`s first level.

I listened to one Radio debate at the time where a well known local Politician waffled on at length about the awful iniquity of the Poor and the Old being forced to shell out more money for their journey.
The docile interviewer never even mentioned the Dept of Social Welfares role in protecting these very groups with its very comprehensive Free Travel Scheme...so much for understanding ones brief...?

That Euro Changeover period represented the one great missed opportunity for Dublin Bus to stick it to its Political Masters and it backed down in the face of blatant ignorant interference...

I believe that that single incident may well have shaped the future of the Senior Management suite within Dublin Bus as it marked the beginning of the process of disengagement from the likes of the very able Dr Alan Westwell as Managing Director.

Government Departments may well waffle on about Semi-State companies having autonomy and commercially focused management ethos but when push comes to shove in the Bus Queue that so called transparency and hands-off attitude reverts to tradition.....Do ye want a pint....or a transfer...???

O the O Connell St issue I`m afraid we shall have to continue to differ.
As the City Centre continues to develop and expand it will do so with or without any input from Dublin Bus....The slack will no doubt be taken up by other entities with some idea of Leading the change rather than Status Quo `ing it.

Meanwhile ,back at the ranch...watch out for the return of the 15`s to the Pillar..."begob joxer,it`ll be just like oul times again...ah jem...them wuz de days.... "

Victor

AlekSmart wrote:

Do ye want a pint....or a transfer...???

... both, and a promotion.

shltter

AlekSmart wrote:

Still here sluggin it out for the old Dublin Bus Motto......"Changin wit de City"....indeed.

The Eccles St difficulty was a particularly bad example of the total lack of any worthwhile co-operation between Dublin Bus and Dublin City Council.

It encompassed The City Council`s well flagged decision to carry out Major Water Main works over the weekend of the 14th and 15th of October.
These works actually began on the Friday evening and were indeed MAJOR.

The salient point here is that in spite of a four star **** rating indicating "Serious Traffic Disruption" Dublin Bus head office took no action in relation to maintaining a safe operating environment for either its Own Staff OR its Customers.

The actuality of the weekend was that Dublin Bus insisted upon maintaining "Normal Service" through what was effectively a battlefield.
The sight of laden Double Deck Buses passing within millimeteres of a workmans head as he laboured away in an unsupported trench is not something which any supposed Professional Local Authority or Bus Service Provider can justify.

There is little point is publishing a series of warnings concerning Traffic Disruption if the largest operator of Large Passenger Carrying vehicles in the City then chooses to ignore it as merely scaremongering.

Anybody lucky enough to have a video camera would have had a field day as Cabra Bound Buses attempting to turn left into Eccles st were reveresed back by a labourer as his erstwhile colleague called on cars approaching from the opposite rear whilst all the while the Traffic Signals carried on normal pasing as if all was hunky dory...It was`nt.

It would be a very interesting excercise indeed to see if any forward facing on-bus video footage from the northbound routes still exists for that weekend or whether,having "Gotten away with it",the parties can carry on as normal.

As shllter sez,I do indeed appreciate that much of this discussion is merely combustible gas in relation to Dublin Bus.
As the prime public Bus Service provider it`s needs and desires have consistently dropped down the scale on Dublin City Councils "To Do" lists.

For all the modern PR puff,the standing of Dublin Bus in terms of managing its off bus infrastructure is at rock bottom in relation to the somewhat clearer function it possessed when it was Dublin City Bus Services arm of CIE.

The present confusion,indecision and resultant inertia rergarding Centre City Bus Stance allocation remains a prime example of the lack of any co-operation at operational level between the Civic and Transport authorities.

However those areas where the Company SHOULD be standing on its own merits such as the Flat Fare one are swiftly buried.

The companys attempt to introduce a much simplified fare structure should have succeeded.
The introduction of a baseline €1 fare available over a wider area was recognized by SOME sections of Dublin Bus management as simple good sense.
A commercial gamble,yes but only in the context of a seriously flawed Government Public Transport subvention policy.

What occurred after that fateful weekend was pure farce.
Having had the new fare structure publicised and it`s Ticket Machines modified presumably with the full approval of the Dept of Transport etc the company then recieves a blast from the then Chairman of CIE who having recieved "Representations" from various local political figures "requests" the Dublin Bus board to "reconsider" its innovative (for It) move.

To make matters worse and to underline the message of who ACTUALLY runs the show,the company then is prevailed upon to operate 2 FREE TRAVEL weekends in abject apology for attempting to IMPROVE its structures for the benefit of ALL its customers.

This is the stuff of Central American banana republics not a forward looking member of the European Community`s first level.

I listened to one Radio debate at the time where a well known local Politician waffled on at length about the awful iniquity of the Poor and the Old being forced to shell out more money for their journey.
The docile interviewer never even mentioned the Dept of Social Welfares role in protecting these very groups with its very comprehensive Free Travel Scheme...so much for understanding ones brief...?

That Euro Changeover period represented the one great missed opportunity for Dublin Bus to stick it to its Political Masters and it backed down in the face of blatant ignorant interference...

I believe that that single incident may well have shaped the future of the Senior Management suite within Dublin Bus as it marked the beginning of the process of disengagement from the likes of the very able Dr Alan Westwell as Managing Director.

Government Departments may well waffle on about Semi-State companies having autonomy and commercially focused management ethos but when push comes to shove in the Bus Queue that so called transparency and hands-off attitude reverts to tradition.....Do ye want a pint....or a transfer...???

O the O Connell St issue I`m afraid we shall have to continue to differ.
As the City Centre continues to develop and expand it will do so with or without any input from Dublin Bus....The slack will no doubt be taken up by other entities with some idea of Leading the change rather than Status Quo `ing it.

Meanwhile ,back at the ranch...watch out for the return of the 15`s to the Pillar..."begob joxer,it`ll be just like oul times again...ah jem...them wuz de days.... "

I will take your word that the roadworks were bad I did not see it but I can tell you of numerous times I have arrived at closed roads and diversions and called it in for advice as to what route should be taken to learn that this is the first time the controller has heard of the roadworks. It happens all the time.
If the situation was as you say then the road should have been closed and diversions put in place and well advertised in advance.
That would be a decision for the City Council and the Safety manager for those particular roadworks not for DB.
I notice that you still have failed to come up with any realistic alternative to the O'Connell St route that would address any of the issues that you have identified.
The use of Dominic St to alleviate the Parnell Square problem would not need to remove routes from O'Connell St as they could just as easily access Dominic St from Parnell St having come up O'Connell St


BTW I am not suggesting that Cross city routes via other routes other than O'Connell St should not be provided I just disagree that the routes currently serving that area should be removed. Part of the answer is providing more routes not just dicking around with the current ones.

Hopefully a lot of the issues will be resolved when the New transport regulator is appointed at the moment DB does not have the clout to implement changes that even they have identified as needed. We can argue all day that they should but the evidence is plentiful that they don't from route changes to fare changes to the implementation of QBCs the DOT the City Councils and the local politicians win the day every time.

AlekSmart

"

shltter wrote:

I will take your word that the roadworks were bad I did not see it but I can tell you of numerous times I have arrived at closed roads and diversions and called it in for advice as to what route should be taken to learn that this is the first time the controller has heard of the roadworks. It happens all the time.
If the situation was as you say then the road should have been closed and diversions put in place and well advertised in advance.
That would be a decision for the City Council and the Safety manager for those particular roadworks not for DB.
I notice that you still have failed to come up with any realistic alternative to the O'Connell St route that would address any of the issues that you have identified.
The use of Dominic St to alleviate the Parnell Square problem would not need to remove routes from O'Connell St as they could just as easily access Dominic St from Parnell St having come up O'Connell St


BTW I am not suggesting that Cross city routes via other routes other than O'Connell St should not be provided I just disagree that the routes currently serving that area should be removed. Part of the answer is providing more routes not just dicking around with the current ones.

Hopefully a lot of the issues will be resolved when the New transport regulator is appointed at the moment DB does not have the clout to implement changes that even they have identified as needed. We can argue all day that they should but the evidence is plentiful that they don't from route changes to fare changes to the implementation of QBCs the DOT the City Councils and the local politicians win the day every time.

"

Yup,Thats all sound stuff and fits in well with the "Safe Pair of Hands" ethos which is a deservedly important part of Public Transport Operations everywhere.

Im in full agreement with you on the issue of current routes serving the street as having packed most of it`s eggs into the OC St basket,Dublin Bus would probably only scramble them if they attempted to take them back out.

The current situation with Dublin`s Public Bus Service network is one of considerable confusion whereby the Operator (DB) is attempting to run a level of service with little or no contribution from the City itself.

As for realistic alternatives to OC St,its particularly difficult to be realistic in the present circumstances because the "Reality" appears to alter on a frequent basis.

I still believe that OC St has reached its limit in Bus terms and that Dublin Bus should be prodding the City Authorities to recognize the reality that there is Human occupation of other surrounding areas which deserve Public Bus Service facilities

The Decision to run a substantial number of extra routes along O Connell St simply in order to satisfy Dublin City Council`s dictats has left Parnell Sq West as a battleground of some danger.

The extra 14/48A/46A movements alone merited some serious thinking as to their layover/terminus arrangements.

The original intention of utilizing Mountjoy Sq as a major terminus was rapidly nixed following some very sinister attacks on Drivers and associated anti-social thuggery.

Very few would regard the present "Up until 1900 hrs" as a desirable way to manage a supposed QBC route terminus such as the 46A "Flagship".

Taking a broader view would entail running the route up to a "Proper" terminus such as Drumcondra Station via MJ Sq and perhaps even Jones Rd with its sports ground,sporting museum and fairly popular Hotel which presently function in a public transport vacuum.

Not having any actual power is one reality Dublin Bus faces but that should not preclude it from being aggressive in pursuing its requirements.

What Dublin Bus does have is power over its own services,vehicles and staff.
However there does not appear to be an ethos of "Being Prepared" for the all too familiar Dorset St/Eccles St type of situation.

The weekly circular which Dublin City Council supply to interested parties should be consulted in great detail and in locations which have a 4* disruption indicator Dublin Bus Management should immediately dig deep (!) so as to identify the Specific nature of the works.

It should be borne in mind that the DCC * indicator system refers to general Traffic disruption without allowing for the very great differences of scale between a Car and A fully laden Bus.
4* Disruption for a Private Car could well translate to 8*`s for a Bus !

:eek:

Victor

AlekSmart wrote:

Taking a broader view would entail running the route up to a "Proper" terminus such as Drumcondra Station via MJ Sq and perhaps even Jones Rd with its sports ground,sporting museum and fairly popular Hotel which presently function in a public transport vacuum.

Or they could simply extend as far as Broadstone. Would certainly help with facilities for breaks, changeovers, etc.

AlekSmart

Yes indeed Viktor a very prescient observation indeed.
There is however a great deal of uncertainty regarding the entire Broadstone Facility with all manner of proposals floating about,none of which appear to cater for the spatial requirements of some 300+ Buses.

The other mystifying aspect to Broadstone for me,is the rather limiting factor of it and the associated Phibsboro Depot having only a single exit/entry to/from the outside world.

There is not even a set of Bus Priority Traffic signals to allow the City and Provincial fleet access to the Hiways `n Biways of our green and pleasant land.

Well,actually I tell a lie....There IS a set of pedestrian operated signals on Constitution Hill,an interesting set actually.....
It seems that initially this set of signals had a Bus Detection loop built into their circuit.

This loop sensed Buses coming down from the Bus Depots and would turn the ped signals red,thus allowing the "Stupid oul" Buses to enter the traffic flow with a degree of alacrity.

Now,it seems that in the wake of some Road Traffic incidents in the general location an Garda Siochana prevailed upon the Corporation of the day to disconnect this facility on the grounds that.....(Wait for it)....

"Traffic from the Phibsboro direction tended to be Travelling to Fast for drivers to stop safely in the event of a bus activated signal change"

I just wish I had independent confirmation of this piece of glowing repartee from "The Force".
The single door principle is yet another trademark of Dublin`s Public Bus service,whether it be the vehicles themselves or the Garages from which they operate.
Only Conyngham Rd and Ringsend are lucky enough to have the fail-safe of a double entrance with all the remainder operating yet again to the Egg-Timer principle.

But for now it`s fullmarks to Vic for a timely reminder to Ma,that it don`t have to be so....

Victor

AlekSmart wrote:

Only Conyngham Rd and Ringsend are lucky enough to have the fail-safe of a double entrance with all the remainder operating yet again to the Egg-Timer principle.

You mean it takes 3 minutes to load?

AlekSmart

Red Alert Red Alert !......3 Minutes and counting...:)

New pre-recorded message to be played on Bus P/A system each time the door is opened in O Connell St.

Even cooler would be the background sounds of Klaxon`s sounding and hob-nailed boots clanking on steel treaded ladders....Anybody remember "Voyage to The Bottom of the Sea " ?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Jeepers if they could combine this with the new "Dublin Bus would like to remind its customers that smoking on Buses is illegal etc etc " announcement we could really put a bit of excitement into otherwise ever lengthening Bus Journeys...

Now where is the number for the Patent Office ??

Aquavid

Aleck is right about the passenger boarding issue.

I almost always use prepaid passes these days, but back when I used to pay cash, I would always count out my fare before heading for the bus stop, and have it sequestered in a different pocket from the rest of my wealth, so that on approaching the driver I could simply deliver the payment in one simple action.

Watching the general public boarding is amazing. Not only do they not consider looking for their fare before the bus arrives, but they don't even start to look for it while they are queueing on the steps of the bus, watching the people in front of them pay. Then, when finally it's their turn, they shuffle forward to the driver, and act as if the fact that they have to pay comes as a complete surprise.

Now, lets see, what's in the first pocket . . .

Aquavid

jjbrien

I think whats needed to cure the gerenal public of not having the fare ready is to have a small ticket machine at each stop and people have to buy thier ticket before they board. It has worked in London and spead up boarding time completly. Also the thing of exiting from the front doors is also stupid. If you go to Canada you must enter via the front doors and exit via the middle door. In some citys if you have a pass you can also enter via the middle door. I dont know why we in Ireland must live in the past.

AlekSmart

Agree wit ya JJB about the On Street Ticket Machines..
Only problem is that Dublin Bus DID try them,two of the breed.
One at D`Olier St and the other at Trinity`s Wall.

The reaction of the travelling public was muted to say the least,as the machines were somewhat unreliable due to being filled with Chewing Gum,SuperGlue,Urine,and Kebab Droppings....

The final straw was when the one at College Green was doused in petrol and set alight....
Now the interesting aspect to this is how many people have ever tried to find a filling station near College Green...?

Sadly JJB we are not yet ready for such incredible things as Off Bus Ticketing Systems and Bus Shelters in Dublin`s Public Transport although it`s worth noting that Dublin City Council`s Pay and Display Ticket Machines are Generally Quite reliable..(Hmmmmmm ?)

The other aspect is that for simplicity and ease of operation a Flat Fare regieme would be almost a pre-requisite and given the present antedeluvian nature of the Established Civil Service I really cannot see any such Simplistic Stuff happening....at least not until decentralization is finished....

jdivision

The obvious solution is to use tickets that last for a certain amount of time. It is by far the most cost effective solution and is used in other major cities such as San Francisco without any problems.

John R

AlekSmart wrote:

The other aspect is that for simplicity and ease of operation a Flat Fare regieme would be almost a pre-requisite

As I have posted here before, a flat rate is the only workable way to run the bus service when smart card comes in. Tagging out to get the stage or zone applied is a dreadful prospect, it will cause as much time wastage as the current cash fumbling.

Flat fare is the only situation where street ticket machines could be made workable given the reticence of the Irish public to use any time saving equipment. Just witness the queues at ticket offices in rail stations and particularly Busaras where there are unused ticket machines right beside. Busaras is particularly amusing; watching a massive roped-off queue slowly shuffling right past the lightly used ticket machine always confirms my low opinion of the Irish public everytime I am there.

To make it of any value there would need to be areas of pay before boarding only; the city centre for one and other heavy traffic areas such as shopping centres. Without it being compulsory the very same 20% of time-wasting cash fumblers will still insist on boarding the bus and causing needless delays and any benefit from the other people changing from quick cash payments to on-street payment will have little effect on dwell times.

Of course the ugly face of our patently anti-bus city leadership would be a big problem in this again. The complete ban on any bus shelters along O'Connell Street doesn't bode well for any attempt to provide adequate on-street ticketing and of all streets that is the one of the locations that needs it most.

Victor

John R wrote:

Busaras is particularly amusing; watching a massive roped-off queue slowly shuffling right past the lightly used ticket machine always confirms my low opinion of the Irish public everytime I am there.

Baaaa! Baaa-aaaa-a!

markpb

shltter wrote:

The Parnell Square situation is made worse because it is the handing over area if some of the routes had a different handing over area it might make the situation a little better

Parnell Square (west) seems very wide to me. Wide enough put in perhaps one car lane (on the right), and splitting the rest into two bus lanes with an island in the middle. Buses terminating and laying over could use the left lane with cross city buses using the middle lane. Of course this too would require the removal of the parking

O Connell St is the centre of the city and it is not surprising that people want to go there or that DB takes people there

I could be wrong but I think that's slightly blinkered thinking. Lots of people go to OCS because its a) easier to change to another bus there and b) the easiest way to walk to the south city from the northside.

Look at the Routings for the LUAS for example the decision to stop one of the Luas lines up in Stephens Green has been lambasted and the new Airport route will run under O Connell St.

Because people looking to change from the green line to the red line or to the bus network have no simple interchange. People coming in from Sandyford and wanting to get to Santry have to walk from Stephens Green to the north end of OCS. How many commuters on the green line actually work in OCS compared to the number who get buses to continue their journey?

MiniD wrote:

The other problem which exists here is the amount of cars on the road and no priority for buses. I sometimes think we need a London style congestion charge for Dublin at peak hours.

The wonderful people in DCC have said that a congestion charge is not on the books for another few years. More agressive bus priority measures would be a start. Hell even making the existing bus lanes work propely would be a start. It's amazing to see right across the city the places where only a half hearted measure has been done. The in-set bus stops on Ardlea Road are a joke, not least because they're exactly the same length as the buses that serve them. No parking enforcement, no real road closures for bus only roads *sigh*

bazzyk

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