whats my next move?

gosplan

$20 - NL - 9 Seats 12615024-12 Holdem No Limit 30/60
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Hand Start.
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 1 : frank113 has $1,730
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 2 : bdyscr33t has $1,320
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 3 : mike oxlong has $2,470
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 4 : micecam has $1,080
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 5 : A NEW DAY has $1,560
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 6 : gosplan has $2,300
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 7 : potato1916t has $2,420
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 8 : elyk33 has $3,180
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 9 : Amani Q has $1,940
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : A NEW DAY is the dealer.
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : gosplan posted small blind.
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : potato1916t posted big blind.
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Game [12] started with 9 players.
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Oct 26 10:43:44] : Seat 6 : gosplan has Kh Ks
[Oct 26 10:43:50] : Stakes: 30/60 Current level: 2 Next level in: 4 min.
[Oct 26 10:43:54] : elyk33 called 60
[Oct 26 10:43:56] : Amani Q called 60
[Oct 26 10:44:04] : frank113 called 60
[Oct 26 10:44:05] : bdyscr33t folded.
[Oct 26 10:44:07] : mike oxlong folded.
[Oct 26 10:44:07] : micecam folded.
[Oct 26 10:44:09] : A NEW DAY called 60
[Oct 26 10:44:10] : Stakes: 30/60 Current level: 2 Next level in: 3 min.
[Oct 26 10:44:13] : gosplan called 30 and raised 240
[Oct 26 10:44:25] : potato1916t folded.
[Oct 26 10:44:26] : elyk33 folded.
[Oct 26 10:44:27] : Amani Q folded.
[Oct 26 10:44:28] : frank113 called 240
[Oct 26 10:44:30] : Stakes: 30/60 Current level: 2 Next level in: 3 min.
[Oct 26 10:44:31] : A NEW DAY folded.
[Oct 26 10:44:32] : Dealing flop.
[Oct 26 10:44:32] : Board cards [Tc 8s 9c]

??

Is it a simple push? Anyone not push here and why?

Silver-Tiger

No its not a simple push imo! Especially in a $20 game and with a flop like that. People at the $20 games will deffo call 240 raises with 910 , 89 , qj not to mention 88,99,1010.
Ya just have to accept that it is a horrible flop for your big pair and you may not win the hand.
I lead out the flop, if he pushes i re-evaulate and possibly fold( depending on my read on the player)
if he flat calls , i hope hes not trapping and push a blank turn.

sixpac911

I would bet the pot here to tell the guy I have a hand and to ensure you do not give him the odds on a drawing hand. If he calls then I would check and see what happens after. If you check you are giving him a free card to make a draw and it was already mentioned he is likely to be on a drawing hand possibly with PP lower than yours. If he has trips or already made the straight flush or two pair he will call the pot sized raise but with his stack I don't think he would call the pot sized bet on the draw unless he he flush and straight draw. It may be dangerous play because there were two limpers in when this guy called the hand initially but I would not lay down KK so easily. You also have small chance of drawing the top straight which may or may not be good enough

gosplan

sixpac911 wrote:

I would bet the pot here to tell the guy I have a hand and to ensure you do not give him the odds on a drawing hand.

This would have been my initial move but betting the pot would be 720 into 720 which if he called would leave him with 700 behind.

I figure I'd find it hard to get away then.

Basically I thought that my preflop raise was strong enough to rule out him having QJ. I wasn't sure about trips but figured if he had them then so be it.

I'm really not sure, it's a sick flop for that hand but I have to do something on the flop, can't just check it and betting pot kind of comitts me.

In the end I pushed but felt it was the wrong thing to do regardless of the outcome.

Hitman Actual

gosplan wrote:

In the end I pushed but felt it was the wrong thing to do regardless of the outcome.

Push doesn't really make sense. Just bet enough that he's making a mistake to call with a drawing hand, say 400-500. If he comes over the top then re-evaluate, depending on what info you have on the player.

sixpac911

This was early on in the tourney and to be honest I would never be surprised with someone bad enough to call your raise with QJ. I see that very often in the early stages of MTT. Especially rebuys !! Later on in the tourny when the big guns are left you would really be talking abt the 88 99 TT or Suited connector range but weaker players like to call raises with any face cards and there are plenty of weak players in $20 games. Sales reps who like to gamble lol.

I think the pot bet is the best all around option at that stage of the tourny tbh.

You started with 2,300
SB+240 raise =300
bet on flop = 750

If he calls you are check down the hand from there leaving you with
1250. with the blinds at 60/30 your M would be 10+
even counting the fact the blinds with have gone up by your next BB your M will still be in the Orange zone giving you some room for an escape
Not great but you could easily recover from there

Gholimoli

raise more pre-flop,your out of position making it hard to play the hand post flop,to compensate for this disadvantge you raise more pre-flop so any one that is calling you will pay more to some what even out the positional advantage they have over you.

aother reason to raise more is becuase you have so many ppl in the hand,as soon as one of them calls the others are getting great odds to call as well with any two cards that they limped with,then you are left with a huge pot ,out of position against several players with a hand that is very unlikely to improve or be good post flop against so many players.

as played you can bet 500 and fold to a push or you can call a push ,becuase there are so many draws on this bored alot of hands would push with a draw so your hand is good here often enough.

another advantage of raising more pre-flop is that it will make your future decisions easier becuase your are getting better odds to bet/push etc...

gosplan

Cheers all,

My instinct on the flop was to raise pot but my hand didn't really have much chance of improving.

So say I do and he calls, turn is a blank and I check. He's now got 700 in front of him with 2100 in the middle so he'd have to push hoping I'd fold or he hits an out(assuming he had one).

Guess that's why they say position is so important.

Anyway results in bad beat thread but that's not why I posted it. Was really stuck as regards what to do and felt I was making a mistake.