Aj first pos - what did sixpac do wrong here

sixpac911

Multi-Table Tournament
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
MTT Table 1 12542294-32 Holdem No Limit 100/200
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Hand Start.
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Seat 1 : FEAR AN TI has $1,450
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Seat 2 : DALYO has $3,760
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Seat 3 : astitim has $3,135
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Seat 4 : doncarlosuk has $4,850
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Seat 5 : Sixpac912 has $4,445
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Seat 7 : katonga has $5,450
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Seat 8 : MAD MIMA has $1,660
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Seat 9 : slimcity has $2,350
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : FEAR AN TI is the dealer.
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : DALYO posted small blind.
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : astitim posted big blind.
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Game [32] started with 8 players.
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Oct 24 23:47:26] : Seat 5 : Sixpac912 has As Qd
[Oct 24 23:47:28] : doncarlosuk folded.
[Oct 24 23:47:31] : Sixpac912 called 200 and raised 800
[Oct 24 23:47:36] : katonga called 1,000
[Oct 24 23:47:36] : MAD MIMA folded.
[Oct 24 23:47:38] : slimcity folded.
[Oct 24 23:47:38] : FEAR AN TI folded.
[Oct 24 23:47:39] : DALYO folded.
[Oct 24 23:47:39] : astitim folded.
[Oct 24 23:47:39] : Dealing flop.
[Oct 24 23:47:39] : Board cards [Jh 5h 8d]
[Oct 24 23:47:43] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 5 Level up in: 8 min. Break in: 24 min. Players : 15
[Oct 24 23:47:46] : Sixpac912 bet 900
[Oct 24 23:47:52] : katonga called 900
[Oct 24 23:47:52] : Dealing turn.
[Oct 24 23:47:52] : Board cards [Jh 5h 8d 7c]
[Oct 24 23:47:54] : Sixpac912 checked.
[Oct 24 23:48:02] : katonga bet 3,550 and is All-in
[Oct 24 23:48:03] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 5 Level up in: 8 min. Break in: 23 min. Players : 15
[Oct 24 23:48:06] : Sixpac912 folded.
[Oct 24 23:48:06] : katonga wins 4,100 as the last player standing
[Oct 24 23:48:08] : Hand is over.
[Oct 24 23:48:08] :
[Oct 24 23:48:08] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 5 Level up in: 8 min. Break in: 23 min. Players : 15
[Oct 24 23:48:08] : Level up. New stakes : 150/300
[Oct 24 23:48:08] : Level up. New stakes : 150/300
[Oct 24 23:48:08] : Stakes: 150/300 Current level: 5 Level up in: 8 min. Break in: 23 min. Players : 15

cooker3

I don't see anything majorly wrong, raised with decent hand albeit utg, tried continuation bet on flop and folded correctly on turn.
The only thing I'd say is make flop bet bigger, it's smaller then your raise and less then half the pot, that would make me suspicious if I seen that, it's a sign of weakness.

fuzzbox

Personally - I wouldnt raise so much preflop, I think prolly making it like 500/600 to go is plenty.

I would bet a bit harder on the flop - you bet 900 into a 2.3k pot, I would be more inclined to bet something like 1.2k-1.5k

I would not check/fold the turn, check/call is somewhat interesting, but I would prolly just set him in myself.

If you make your raise smaller to begin with, then you will have more room to move later in the hand.

sixpac911

Thanks for that. I was weak and aware of it on the flop. Because the second player to act called my large preflop raise I was concerned about pot committing myself as he may well have had jj. Obviously a probe bet would not have been much use so I kinda bet in between probe and continuation amount which as you say was indicating weakness. The guy told me later that he had KK. However he did not show his hand so I cannot be sure. He appeared genuine and it would fit in with the hand if he was slowplaying. With KK I would have re-raised preflop in that situation but not with jj which is another reason I suspected jj. In any case the flop totally missed me and I was afraid of pot commital with nothing. Bad play. I think just over half pot would have been better play but I would still have lost in this one I think!

sixpac911

Fuzzbox, your point is very interesting to me. It goes against what I have learned in poker to date but I could see how it might work based on the stack I was dealing with. With AJ I raised 4*BB to try to get limpers out of the hand. The guy who called me was just new to the table and I had not come against him previously so had no notes. With KK,AA or AKs I would have raised maybe 2-3*BB. I think your play certainly does leave alot more room for strong post flop play but it could also encourage action post flop that I do not really want. I am actually seriously wondering if your idea makes more sense in such a situation. That could open a whole new debate :-)

brianmc

You are out of position in this hand. Your large raise means that if you get called you are likely going to have to play for a big pot while out of position with a weak hand - as happened.

I like Fuzz's line but sometimes, depending on how aggressive the table is, I'd even be tempted just to throw it away preflop.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Personally - I wouldnt raise so much preflop, I think prolly making it like 500/600 to go is plenty.

I would bet a bit harder on the flop - you bet 900 into a 2.3k pot, I would be more inclined to bet something like 1.2k-1.5k

I would not check/fold the turn, check/call is somewhat interesting, but I would prolly just set him in myself.

If you make your raise smaller to begin with, then you will have more room to move later in the hand.

check call here is horrible on the turn Fuzz im very surprised your suggesting check/call on the turn.
the pot is about 3.5.K and hero has about 3K behind and you are saying a check/call with A high is interesting?
what the hell is so interesting about that.

i like you other points however.
raise a little less pre-flop and bet a little more on the flop.once you get called your gonna have to let it go though.
everything considered you played the hand fine.

ianmc38

brianmc wrote:

depending on how aggressive the table is, I'd even be tempted just to throw it away preflop.

Lol. You rock.

Gholimoli

brianmc wrote:

depending on how aggressive the table is, I'd even be tempted just to throw it away preflop.

you will your bollix fold this pre-flop

brianmc

I only said I'd be tempted. It's kind of like standing on the edge of a cliff. There's temptation, but it's pretty unlikely that I'd actually try to fly.

Anyway, ask Dom. He knows I'm a rock.

dvdfan

Gholimoli wrote:

check call here is horrible on the turn Fuzz im very surprised your suggesting check/call on the turn.
the pot is about 3.5.K and hero has about 3K behind and you are saying a check/call with A high is interesting?
what the hell is so interesting about that.

i like you other points however.
raise a little less pre-flop and bet a little more on the flop.once you get called your gonna have to let it go though.
everything considered you played the hand fine.

Just wondering peoples thinking on betting less on the flop. Whats the startegy here, i would think the blinds are large enough to be happy to take down the pot preflop and to knock out suited connectors and/or small pairs that might be tempted to have a cheapish look....oops no ive spotted, its a 9 seater i taught the heading was 6 seater but its 6pack doh....So the thinking is AQ is a marginal hand to raise in early position with

Hectorjelly

Ive folded AQ utg 9 handed before

sixpac911

If you occassionally throw away AQo UTG can you tell us more about the conditions other than it was 9 handed? eg stage of tounament ond your M? Most of the responses are ignoring the M which I would be interested in having brought into the discussion

Hectorjelly

sixpac911 wrote:

If you occassionally throw away AQo UTG can you tell us more about the conditions other than it was 9 handed? eg stage of tounament ond your M? Most of the responses are ignoring the M which I would be interested in having brought into the discussion

If I remember correcltly I had about 18 blinds left in a game with no antes (I dont think in M's). In the latter stages of a tournament

brianmc

Similar to HJ. Where your stack size is small enough that you don't want to lose three or fours BBs by raising preflop and having to let go after the flop. But at the same time, your stack size is big enough that you don't need to be open pushing the hand.

Gholimoli

brianmc wrote:

Similar to HJ. Where your stack size is small enough that you don't want to lose three or fours BBs by raising preflop and having to let go after the flop. But at the same time, your stack size is big enough that you don't need to be open pushing the hand.

this is where you consider it but still wouldnt do it ...
who are kidding Brian you wouldnt fold 98 soooooted in this spot.:D

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

check call here is horrible on the turn Fuzz im very surprised your suggesting check/call on the turn.
the pot is about 3.5.K and hero has about 3K behind and you are saying a check/call with A high is interesting?
what the hell is so interesting about that.

Gholi - you dont have to be so confrontational all the time.
Check/call is not horrible - although (like I said) I would probably just move in myself (which would have been made even easier by my larger flop bet.

Check/call gets the money from TT/99/worse Js.
Sure, shove might get the money from those hands too, but thats why I said it was somewhat interesting. That is to say, that the play has some merit.

Even saying all of that, I did not advocate it, merely said that its not a bad option every now and then.

i like you other points however.
raise a little less pre-flop and bet a little more on the flop.once you get called your gonna have to let it go though.
everything considered you played the hand fine.

Do you frequently check/fold TPTK on the turn after this action????
I daresay that you do not.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Gholi - you dont have to be so confrontational all the time.
Check/call is not horrible - although (like I said) I would probably just move in myself (which would have been made even easier by my larger flop bet.

Check/call gets the money from TT/99/worse Js.
Sure, shove might get the money from those hands too, but thats why I said it was somewhat interesting. That is to say, that the play has some merit.

Even saying all of that, I did not advocate it, merely said that its not a bad option every now and then.



Do you frequently check/fold TPTK on the turn after this action????
I daresay that you do not.

i knew there was something wrong with your post as soon as i read it .
as i said i was very surprised you suggesting a check/call there and i did say with A HIGH.:D
the problem here is even though OP has said he has AJ in the post title but in the hand history he actually has AQ and there is no Q on the flop so he has missed all together.my advice was based on him having AQ and yours was based on him having AJ.
problem solved ,can we be friends again?:D

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

i knew there was something wrong with your post as soon as i read it .
as i said i was very surprised you suggesting a check/call there and i did say with A HIGH.:D
the problem here is even though OP has said he has AJ in the post title but in the hand history he actually has AQ and there is no Q on the flop so he has missed all together.my advice was based on him having AQ and yours was based on him having AJ.
problem solved ,can we be friends again?:D

Heheh - ok, fair point.
Lets gang up on the OP instead !!

sixpac911

Doh !! My apologies for the title !! I did mean AQ. So all in all the moral of the story is that my play was fine but the continuation bet was a little small?

alternatives would have been:
to raise smaller preflop and push harder on the flop that missed me - then fold to any bet if called

or to fold pre flop

or to limp in which was never mentioned.

I think next time I will push harder on the flop. Normally I would make the same pre flop play and I would have pushed more post flop and normally that works for me and I take the hand there.
Next time I will consider a smaller preflop bet followed by stronger action on the flop. If called I think check fold on a bad turn would be my only option right?

I will also consider limping in a future hand like this to see if I can get in cheaply. Is that bad play?

brianmc

sixpac911 wrote:

I will also consider limping in a future hand like this to see if I can get in cheaply. Is that bad play?

The problem with limping in EP at a nine handed table is you have to expect that somebody will raise. Now you're stuck calling with AQ out of position which is even more painful than raising with it.

If the table is tight enough that you're not expecting anyone to raise, then I think you should raise.

padraig_f

Checking the flop isn't a bad option. It's a pretty bad flop for you to semi-bluff. He knows you probably didn't hit and it hits a whole bunch of connectors - everything from 87 to QJ. There's a flush draw out there too.

People will call you much more liberally when they have position, so I'd slow down on the continuation bets when you're out of position on bad flops like this.

sixpac911

Thank you for your input padraig, very different outlook to anything so far but interesting all the same. Problem with that play for me is that I am practically giving my preflop chips away when I could continuation bet to take the pot there and then or see the next card which could quite easily help me. I would have thought that over time the continuation play was best?

padraig_f

Most of the time I would continuation bet after raising pre-flop, but I don't think you want to do it blindly. It's the most predictable bet in poker so if you do it 100% of the time with nothing, you're losing more than you should. I think you should always evaluate the situation and decided whether a continuation bet is a good bet. Good conditions for a continuation bet bluff would be:

- you can represent a hand....e.g. a king-high flop would be better
- you have a good draw....you'll only improve here about 1 in 8 times.
- opponent has shown weakness....no idea how the flop has hit him yet.
- you have position.....players call less OOP, also you'll usually get a free river.
- there are few draws your opponent could have....draws increase the number of hands he can call you with.

This hand matches none of those conditions, so I don't think it's a great candidate for the continuation bet.

Also you'd be surprised how frequently when you check here that your opponent checks behind. Because they're expecting you to bet, a lot of people will suspect you're trapping if you check and you get to see the turn card anyway.

Ollieboy

Firstly, your raise is to big preflop and this makes you committed to the hand after the flop, than the continuation bet is to small and your also out of position.

I would have raise 3 times the blind, you can give the hand up easier on the flop, I also think Padraig F makes good points on the continuation bet here as rules when you should continuation bet. Aq is not a monster of a hand utg and is call in early position is a sign of strenght, I would have been prepared to check the flop here after raising to 600 preflop and throw it away if he bets the flop as you can only beat a bluff at this stage and you'll still have plenty of chips left, the way you played it, your now shortstack and will have to open push any decent hand from now on. If the flop had come Ace high I would have bet the flop, with this hand in early position, you need to hit to take it after the flop.

sixpac911

Thanks Paidraig and ollie. Very interesting posts and I will incorporate your advice into my decision making in future situations.

luckyvegas7

push the turn hes on a draw