Unarmed Combat

GerryRyan

Was just reading an article in An Cosantoir on PDF members being trained in basic unarmed combat. My question: what would the chances be of RDF members taking part in these courses? Would it in anyway be worth the investment/time? There would deffo be a demand for it within some units if it was proposed anyway

Just a thought.

cushtac

The article implies that this training isn't standard in the PDF, if this is the case then the chances of RDF getting on a course any time soon would be miniscule.

The moves in some of the pics look a bit laughable tbh.

elvis jaffacake

cushtac wrote:

The moves in some of the pics look a bit laughable tbh.

well to be fair, most MA/UC moves look weird when caught on camera, they are frozen moments of time (oh how poetic), if you saw them in full flow, they look more effective, trust me, I've seen photos of myself doing BBJ, and it looks like I'm attempting to have sex with my opponent:eek:

sunnyjim

True that. BJJ (Brazilian Ju Jitsu to the uninformed, its alot of ground fighting) just comes across as 'Karma Sutra' in pictures.

sunnyjim

ThatGuy wrote:

Was just reading an article in An Cosantoir on PDF members being trained in basic unarmed combat. My question: what would the chances be of RDF members taking part in these courses? Would it in anyway be worth the investment/time? There would deffo be a demand for it within some units if it was proposed anyway

Just a thought.

Why do you and the rest of the interested party not just take up Tae Kwon Do, Ju Jitsu or Karate in your spare time? Just because the army teach it doesn't mean its the best or only way...

babybundy

i no this may sound stupid but they will teach you offensive defence:o quicker where as if you go to courses they fill tip toe you through at the start and it will be a while before you learn the same things

cushtac

elvis jaffacake wrote:

well to be fair, most MA/UC moves look weird when caught on camera, they are frozen moments of time (oh how poetic), if you saw them in full flow, they look more effective, trust me, I've seen photos of myself doing BBJ, and it looks like I'm attempting to have sex with my opponent:eek:

One of the posed pics looks like it's come straight out of a 70's teach yourself karate book & has the defender blocking an overhead knife attack with one arm while delivering a ridge-hand to the attacker's throat with the other.

elvis jaffacake

cushtac wrote:

One of the posed pics looks like it's come straight out of a 70's teach yourself karate book & has the defender blocking an overhead knife attack with one arm while delivering a ridge-hand to the attacker's throat with the other.

humm...have not seen the photos myself, but it does not sound....effective, wonder how they developed the UC system the DF use?

Mick86

elvis jaffacake wrote:

humm...have not seen the photos myself, but it does not sound....effective, wonder how they developed the UC system the DF use?

I don't know how the DF developed it's unarmed combat training. Most of it's common sense anyway. A kick to the testicles is as incapacitating today as it was a hundred years ago. Remember that;

The enemy won't stay still long enough for you to do a fancy Kung Fu move on him.

Don't punch him in the face, you'll just break your hand.

Unarmed combat looks great. Armed combat is more effective.

peader111

hi was in that unarmed combat course and the syllabus was takin from the rangers and about 2 other armys i think,and i think the brithish police,

Morpheus

Dont they use Mag Crava or something like that?

GerryRyan

Yeah, you're thinking of Krav Maga. Plenty of posts on the subject in the Martial Arts forum.

Krav Maga, pronounced (kräv) (megä´) n. [Hebrew.] for "Contact Combat", is the official self-defense and hand-to-hand combat system of Israel. Krav Maga is a very modern and practical style of self-defense that is the only style worldwide known as an art of self-defense and not as a martial art.

Krav Maga isn't about being a tough guy, it's not about learning how to fight in a ring, it's about going home alive no matter what the situation.

Krav Maga is a survival system dealing with personal safety issues in the context of defending against both armed and unarmed attackers.

Krav Maga integrates instinct based self-defense tactics, with a strong curriculum that trains aggressiveness, fighting spirit, situational awareness, and verbal de-escalation of conflict. Its anti-terrorist roots make it aggressive by design, with only one objective, to eliminate the threat in the fastest way possible.

It is considered a highly refined, street fighting system, designed to be utilized against street attacks, muggings, and sexual assaults. Krav Maga was developed for use in the street. When an individual is attacked in the street there is no way to know how many opponents or weapons you might encounter, therefore Krav Maga training is based on a system without rules.

This Israeli system emerged in an environment where extreme violence was common has been continually refined and developed in light of actual modern combat and self-defense experiences. Krav Maga has received international recognition for its unique approach in bringing self defense to civilian, military, and law enforcement alike. The Krav Maga symbol consists of the Hebrew letters K and M surrounded by an open circle because the system is open to improvement by adding techniques, exercises, and training methods.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=36

aido_2006

im just out of training a few weeks... and we altogether we spent a week doing unarmed combat... its class and u learn some really gift stuff about ground fighting and other things... we can go onto further our training by doing another 3 week course in uac but its only open to the pdf... i wouldnt say there is any plans to extend it to rdf either as its only becoming popular among the pdf in the last while...

cushtac

An Cosantóir has published two articles on UAC in the last ten years - one in 1996 and the recent article. The 1996 article says that techniques are taken from a wide range of martial arts, the 2006 article says that the current syllabus was drawn up in 2003 by a number of soldiers including one with Judo experience. Neither article mentions Krav Maga by name.

Odysseus

I have trained with a KM instructor who done some training with the ARW around KM, I'm not saying that this is the only format of unarmed combat they train in. However, I believe him as he has one of the ARW plaques which was given to him when he finished the training. Most of the army guys who train with us always comment on it. However, as I said I'm sure it like most things you weave together the various parts of different things to suit you.

Baggio...

Hi all,

Interesting....I read that article too.

For me the best form of unarmed combat is "Comatives" or Close Quarters Combat. It was developed by an English guy called W.E. Fairbairn in the 1920's. He deduced that the material had to be simple, effective and function under pressure of real combat. The problem with 99% of Martial Arts is that they are too complex to be used under adrenal stress, and only work in the comfort zone of the Dojo - where people train in a "friendly" environment.

Guys like Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate actually used Combatives behind enemy lines in WW II - so they knew it would work when the time came. Combatives was originally taught to the SAS, British Commandos, USMC, OSS (spies, espionage, etc).

I recently saw a clip about the American Airborne, and there hand to hand combat syllabus. Quite a bit of it was based on BJJ - but I wonder how effective it is when you are trying to fight fully kited out, and carrying an 80lb pack.

Just my two cents...

B.

aido_2006

Odysseus wrote:

I have trained with a KM instructor who done some training with the ARW around KM, I'm not saying that this is the only format of unarmed combat they train in. However, I believe him as he has one of the ARW plaques which was given to him when he finished the training. Most of the army guys who train with us always comment on it. However, as I said I'm sure it like most things you weave together the various parts of different things to suit you.

The instructors who trained us told us that they had trained around KM and with the ARW and also they share what they know with other armies around the world... one of our instructors was supposed to be **** hot at judo so i think i know the instructor that is being talked about..

elvis jaffacake

http://www.kravmagaireland.com/

Baggio...

Anyone who wants to know about KM should think about contacting Millionaire from the self-defense forum on boards. He's a very talented KM instructor, and also knows a shedload about combatives. He knows the best guys to train with Here in Dublin.

Cheers,

Baggio.

PS - I've heard very good reports about Aidan Carroll at: http://www.kravmaga.ie

arybvtcw0eolkf

Baggio... wrote:

Anyone who wants to know about KM should think about contacting Millionaire from the self-defense forum on boards. He's a very talented KM instructor, and also knows a shedload about combatives. He knows the best guys to train with Here in Dublin.

Cheers,

Baggio.

PS - I've heard very good reports about Aidan Carroll at: http://www.kravmaga.ie

Just backing up what Baggio says.

'Millionair' also trained in Israel with some IDF instructors. I've went to KM displays in Israel when I was last oversea in Lebanon, its good stuff and well worth checking out. But I don't think anyone here will train you to the level of a decent IDF KM practitioner.

www.kravmaga.com is a pretty decent KM site too.

Also I watched the lads train unarmed combat last week in McKee, pretty useless stuff IMO.

Irish_Army01

UAC is now in the Recruit syllabus.I am an Unarmed Combat Instructor and I was talking to another Instructor while training Recruits, he told me he had been doing some UAC with A RDF unit..

BTW We don't Use Krav Mage .

That Guy in the An Cosantoir is a Buddy of mine And a great Instructor.

Baggio...

Irish_Army01 wrote:

UAC is now in the Recruit syllabus.I am an Unarmed Combat Instructor and I was talking to another Instructor while training Recruits, he told me he had been doing some UAC with A RDF unit..

BTW We don't Use Krav Mage .

That Guy in the An Cosantoir is a Buddy of mine And a great Instructor.

What type of stuff does he teach, what I mean is, what concepts form the basis of Irish Close Quarters Combat? The best I've seen (in my opinion) is WW II Combatives. I'm just wondering if he's following a similar route, or is it more "Martial Arts based"?

Cheers,

B.

Irish_Army01

Baggio... wrote:

What type of stuff does he teach, what I mean is, what concepts form the basis of Irish Close Quarters Combat? The best I've seen (in my opinion) is WW II Combatives. I'm just wondering if he's following a similar route, or is it more "Martial Arts based"?

Cheers,

B.

its a mixture............

Baggio...

Sounds interesting... Where do you teach it, and what considerations did you think of when you guys were forming this style of unarmed Combat? (Hope you don't mind all the questions...:))

I've seen some of the US Airborne unarmed combat - they use a lot of BJJ. I always wondered how useful it would be with a lot of heavy gear on (backpack, flack jacket, etc.).

Cheers,

B.

Irish_Army01

Baggio... wrote:

Sounds interesting... Where do you teach it, and what considerations did you think of when you guys were forming this style of unarmed Combat? (Hope you don't mind all the questions...:))

I've seen some of the US Airborne unarmed combat - they use a lot of BJJ. I always wondered how useful it would be with a lot of heavy gear on (backpack, flack jacket, etc.).

Cheers,

B.

I teach it when requested to instruct a class weather it be Recruits or a course that has requested an introduction to UAC.

The training is kept as simple as possible to minimize confusion in a confrontation..(thats as detailed as I'm willing to go into I'm afraid)

mick.fr

Mick86 wrote:

I don't know how the DF developed it's unarmed combat training. Most of it's common sense anyway. A kick to the testicles is as incapacitating today as it was a hundred years ago. Remember that;

The enemy won't stay still long enough for you to do a fancy Kung Fu move on him.

Don't punch him in the face, you'll just break your hand.

Unarmed combat looks great. Armed combat is more effective.

You did not get it.
This sort of martial art is also known as close combat and the aim of close combat is to provide the skills to be able to fight an enemy when you are unarmed. Unarmed situations can arise anywhere, in police duty, army duty, and streets.

And for having doing some martial stuffs for a couple of years I can tell you develop your skills over well mature techniques that allow you to punch somebody in the face without doing any arm to yourself.

Anyway for your information Krav Maga does not exist in the Israeli army. It is not referenced anywhere. And therefore it is officially not used by the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces). The one the IDF is using is the KAPAP.

But it is well admitted the "Krav Maga" a generalized term that refer to the original "close combat" or "self defense" framework invented in the 30s by Emi Lichtenfeld.
And it is surely the case KAPAP is based on the classic Krav Maga techniques.

Close combat techniques are useful to take in consideration the nowadays threats such as short range firearms and how to eventually handle them.
There are other close combat techniques using a news paper/magazine or car keys than you can use as a very effective weapon.

But some approach are very bad in Krav Maga.
For example in many situations they recommend to hit frenetically the opponent in the face or elsewhere. I have seen many guys hitting like 10 times a guy in the face in less than 5 sec.
If the guy is really resistant, he is going to reply to your hits and you are going to run out of breath very very soon.

This kind of approach is not as effective as other approaches, such as Karate.

In Karate we teach you the closest distance between a point A to B is a straight line. It means be the fastest by taking the right move. In other words it also means hit once, but hit good. I have seen many young or untrained people fighting like rats in a glass wasting a crazy amount of energy and be extremely ineffective in their punch.

Focusing on the right point and hitting first is the most effective way of defeating an opponent.
The approaches I have learned involved the use of vital points.
Depending of the vital point you hit you can kill or freeze your opponent in one shot only.

But Karate also teaches you it can not handle everything, and therefore real instructors will always recommend you to learn other techniques such as Judo for example, which is an excellent complement to Karate.

Mick86

mick.fr wrote:

You did not get it.

Of course I got it. Some people think that learning an unarmed combat technique with a fancy name will turn you into superman. It won't. All of them will teach you basic stuff like the aforementioned kick to the testicles and give it a cool name to part you from your money.

mick.fr wrote:

This sort of martial art is also known as close combat and the aim of close combat is to provide the skills to be able to fight an enemy when you are unarmed.

Close combat covers lots of stuff that include weapons.

mick.fr wrote:

Unarmed situations can arise anywhere, in police duty, army duty, and streets.

They sure can in which case it's the fittest and most callous who will win. If you're a 40 something wimp with a beer belly the Black Belt you earned as a teenager isn't going to help.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Irish_Army01 wrote:

I teach it when requested to instruct a class weather it be Recruits or a course that has requested and Day or two of training..

The training is kept as simple as possible to minimize confusion in a confrontation..(thats as detailed as I'm willing to go into I'm afraid)

Do you have a martial arts background?.

And do you think a day or two instruction is effective?.

Baggio...

Irish_Army01 wrote:

The training is kept as simple as possible to minimize confusion in a confrontation.

Good stuff...
That was Fairbarin's reasoning too - Keep it simple, effective and use full on aggression - and make sure it works under pressure.

Irish_Army01 wrote:

(thats as detailed as I'm willing to go into I'm afraid)

No problemo... I understand.
I've trained with some ex-military personnel myself - there is definitely some stuff that should not be shown around tooeasily. That said, all the knowledge is available if you know where to look (for the original close quarters stuff anyway).

Irish_Army01

Mairt wrote:

Do you have a martial arts background?.

And do you think a day or two instruction is effective?.

Yes I do have an Martial Arts back round..

Baggio...

Irish_Army01 wrote:

Yes I do have an Martial Arts back round..

Hey mate,

I was wondering what are your thoughts about Punching? I noticed you mentioned that you teach boxing as part of the syllabus. The CQB material that I've been training for the last few years has never advocated the use of a closed fist (unless you are going for the body).

Here's the reasoning behind it (came from W. E. Fairbairn's research on the battlefield)

1) Hands are delicate and easy to break, unlike using open hands that are very hard to damage.
2) Take many years to condition fists (and even then you can still break them - Mike Tyson).
3) Using an open hand allows you to attack the skull in a more efficient way. fits into the nooks and crannies.
4) Also allows you to attack specific targets (eyes, throat etc.) Much harder to do with a punch.
5) Using open hands you can also get extra benefits. For example, if you "claw your hands" before you strike, you may also be able to jam some fingers into the opponents eyes as well as impacting the head.
6) No conditioning is necessary to use open hands.

Cheers,

B.

Dirty Knuckles

Irish_Army01 wrote:

Yes I do have an Martial Arts back round..

What is your Martial Arts background and how effective do you think the Defence Forces Unarmed Combat training is?.

Irish_Army01

Dirty Knuckles wrote:

What is your Martial Arts background and how effective do you think the Defence Forces Unarmed Combat training is?.

ninjitsu and yes it is very effective..its simply and to the point.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Irish_Army01 wrote:

ninjitsu and yes it is very effective..its simply and to the point.

You've tested its effectiveness?.

Sorry, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but like Baggio I've an interest in all types of Martial Arts and (I guess) unarmed combat.

Manic Moran

I got the impression that the two days of hand-to-hand we got in Basic was really more for psychological effect than to provide fancy skills. Just enough to give us the confidence that we -could- win, which is reasonable enough as confidence is what you need more than anything else. I found (reasonably enough) more emphasis on bayonet training (including various ways of clubbing people with the blunt end of the rifle)

Anyway, check out these links. GX (National Guard publication) has just started a 'Basic combatives' guide. They've only done three issues so far.

http://www.gxonline.com/past_issues/issues/gx4-2/12-combat.pdf

http://www.gxonline.com/past_issues/issues/gx4-3/10_combatives.pdf

http://www.gxonline.com/past_issues/issues/gx4-4/11_combatives.pdf

NTM

Clare gunner

Would it not be easier to just still teach the Fairbain/Applegate system from ww2?It taught thousands of Gis and Allied troops the rudiments and quickly as well.If somone is that close to you and you have to grapple in unarmed combat somthing has gone badly wrong,and I expect it more to be like that very nasty fight portrayed in Saving Pvt Ryan between the big SS bloke and "New York". A bite,gouge, slamming head into wall, nut kicking ,knife wrestling to the death match.