Nuts Flash Hand Tribeca

dvdfan

Hi,

Hand here, would like people opinions:

Real Money Ring Game
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
Loaded Pistols 10475180-54608 Holdem No Limit $0.10/$0.20
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : Hand Start.
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : Seat 1 : makkleod7 has $42.63
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : Seat 2 : morny has $31.65
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : Seat 3 : Mike1941 has $6.57
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : Seat 4 : Coffee Bear has $37.83
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : Seat 6 : Fire-Angel has $10.53
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : Seat 7 : ToGi84 has $9.34
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : Seat 8 : pokrologist has $39.80
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : Seat 9 : sniper13 has $10.70
[Oct 24 11:37:22] : makkleod7 is the dealer.
[Oct 24 11:38:02] : morny posted small blind.
[Oct 24 11:38:02] : Mike1941 posted big blind.
[Oct 24 11:38:02] : Game [54608] started with 8 players.
[Oct 24 11:38:02] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Oct 24 11:38:02] : Seat 2 : morny has Ah Jh
[Oct 24 11:38:04] : Coffee Bear called $0.20
[Oct 24 11:38:05] : Fire-Angel folded.
[Oct 24 11:38:06] : ToGi84 called $0.20
[Oct 24 11:38:09] : pokrologist called $0.20
[Oct 24 11:38:12] : sniper13 folded.
[Oct 24 11:38:12] : makkleod7 folded.
[Oct 24 11:38:23] : morny called $0.10 and raised $0.60
[Oct 24 11:38:23] : Mike1941 folded.
[Oct 24 11:38:25] : Coffee Bear called $0.60
[Oct 24 11:38:25] : ToGi84 called $0.60
[Oct 24 11:38:29] : pokrologist called $0.60
[Oct 24 11:38:30] : Dealing flop.
[Oct 24 11:38:30] : Board cards [5h 7h 9h]
[Oct 24 11:38:05] : morny bet $0.40
[Oct 24 11:38:07] : Coffee Bear called $0.40 and raised $0.80
[Oct 24 11:38:08] : ToGi84 folded.
[Oct 24 11:38:08] : pokrologist folded.
[Oct 24 11:38:16] : morny called $0.80
[Oct 24 11:38:16] : Dealing turn.
[Oct 24 11:38:16] : Board cards [5h 7h 9h 8c]
[Oct 24 11:38:19] : morny checked.
[Oct 24 11:38:22] : Coffee Bear bet $2


Ill Post Outcome after

El Stuntman

you are aware you don't have the nuts here?

ianmc38

The bet on the flop is horrible. You bet .40 into a 2.50 or so pot. Bet 2/3 - full pot.

Lead the turn. Lead the river.

If he has 6h8h post it in the bb sticky.

dvdfan

Yes sorry worded wrong, the straight flush is there. I did realise that at the time when making My Decisions

El Stuntman

ianmc38 wrote:

If he has 6h8h post it in the bb sticky.

bet you a beer he loses this hand

Ste05

OK, there's quite a few mistakes here, so you might want to put on your thick skin when reading this reply.

To begin with, if you're going to raise PF, you need to make it more than $0.60, all that does is bloat the pot when you are OOP with a weakish unmade hand, you should have either checked, disguising your hand, or bet more, say 3-4 BB's +1 per limper (is a decent guide when deep and OOP) , meaning a raise of $1.20 - $1.50 would be about right, however I'll usually just check here, Position is all important.

As played PF, you were always going to get at least 3 callers. However this is the dream flop for you and you need to think about how best to take ALL of someone's money not trying to eek out a few $'s.

The flop bet is not good at all, how do you intend to get the rest of your $30 in there with a chance of someone calling it? I would have lead out here for about $1.50 - $3, the pot is over $3, if I'm seeing it correctly, so you want to make it look like you're scared of someone with a flush or straight draw, it also makes it ALOT easier to get someone's whole stack in the middle at some stage over the hand, don't worry about trying to get another $2-$3 our of the pot, you should be aiming for $30 in these type of situations, if people have a hand they like they'll play on if not, then mneh, just move onto the next hand.

As played, when you are min-raised, you could do as you did, by calling the flop and then check raising the turn, but I really don't like it, (in fact I think it's probably the worst available option) it basically shows far too much strength and you're hoping you're opponent is a complete overly aggressive donkey and will try and push you off your hand with what I can only assume is a made flush, my exact guess would be K8h.

If you call the min-raise, I'd lead here again for about 2/3 Pot - Full Pot hoping for another re-raise, which I can then push over the top of.

The whole thing is to try and get all his and your money into the pot ASAP, and a 0.40 bet on the flop is not the way to do it. I would even prefer you to then come back over the top of him here on the flop and make it $4 or something so go.

As played on the turn, just make it another 6 to go and hope he pushes. But I'd basically never check raise here, so I'm not sure whether raising or calling is better, but I'd say 85% of the time raising is.

EDIT: You can discount 68 in these situations, if he had that, then you're destined to lose your buy-in.

Lafortezza

He may as well have the nuts since he's not folding to an all-in.
I'd re raise the flop to get the pot bigger, not a big raise but enough that the Kh will want to call.
I think I bet the turn too and hope to get raised. If you check raise the turn it can set alarm bells off in opponents head and he might chicken out.
As played I raise the turn anyway.

dvdfan

I do appreciate the advice but i would invite anyone to visit any of the 10c/25c games on PPP now to see the following:

Youll rarely see anyone sitting in with a max stack (The max is 40 on PPP) Right now 5 of my 8 opponent have under 15 euro. This is common here. I had a system where i raised between 2-5 times the BB and throw in a few non premium hands like suited connecter etc(3-4 BB about 80% of the time) but ive gotten advice before that i should add 1 BB per limper but its not uncommon to have 4-5 limpers at this level. If im raising 4 times the big blind plus and another 5 for the limpers when im in late position, thats €1.80 of a raise, im sitting at this table for over an hour and the biggest raise ive seen is €1.20 other than a shortstack going all in. A raise in this region will only attract premium hands from a stack of €10.00 and repeatedly increasing to this if i dont get callers is going to win me a few 30c blinds and then get me in an all in situation with one of the shortstacks if i keep raising and in which case im likely to have rags and he will have a good hand and i dont like getting all in anyway pre flop.

I agree with the advice on when i should have raised the hands but i think the amounts your talking of raising would not work well at this level on PPP at least. Its not unusual for someone to raise 40c-80c after the flop when the have top pair (i know because im always taking notes) and if i was re-raising them everytime they bet min raise then i would be broke right now. It seems how its played at this level. I know alot of you play at higher levels and your advice is obviously great advice for that level but just come sit at the PPP $0.10/$0.25 for 1 hour and tell me if im wrong or let me know what table your at and ill join you and see if i can learn from you.

Im genuinely not rejecting the advice but ive tried already to put that advice into practice after recieving advice previous to this and found that i was losing more money by increasing my raises etc

I did take your previous advice and moved back to this level but im confused now

ianmc38

DVDFan one of my friends setup a Paddy Power account last week. I sat through 0.10/0.20c with him for about 4 hours, instructing him how to play every hand. The dynamics of the game work in the same way as higher levels.

Noone is limping a premium hand preflop at those levels. If everyone limps, then generally everyone folds to a big raise. If you take down the blinds and 4 limpers money preflop, thats a great result for you. You've got 5.5bbs with a hand that could be difficult to play multi-way out of position postflop unelss you flop a monster.

As played, you have flopped a monster. You should now be thinking of the best way to get your opponent(s) to put their entire stacks in the middle. Betting 1/8th of the pot is not the way to do this.

Bet 2/3 pot on flop, same on turn and possibly shove the river.

As the hand played out, i'd have 3-bet the flop, led the turn and led the river.

If you're losing money by raising more preflop, I cna only assume that your mistakes are occuring postflop....

Post some hand examples where you've raised more preflop and we'll have a look.

5starpool

Never be afraid to get more money in the pot when you are ahead (with the exception of overbetting or giving away too much information about your hand). Don't be afraid to lead into pots with a made hand unless you know someone will do your betting for you.

You say that by raising too much you only lose money at this level, but I think if you size your bets consistently you cannot go too wrong. If you raise preflop you do not want each and every limpper to call. You want to play this hand with at most 2 other players unless you happen to flop a monster. Betting 1/4 of the pot or less at any level will allow people to chase draws cheaply. When you lose a pot like this you should make sure it was your opponent who was chasing at incorrect prices, rather than you trying to slowplay your way into defeat.

As Ian says, post some hands where you feel that you lost more money by raising more preflop.

Ste05

Dammit, I had written a longer proper response, but lost it basically;
my post above was designed for these levels;
agreed with above about posting more hands;
don't use other people playing terribly as an excuse for playing badly yourself; and
adjusting to short stacks is vital,

dvdfan

5starpool wrote:

Never be afraid to get more money in the pot when you are ahead (with the exception of overbetting or giving away too much information about your hand). Don't be afraid to lead into pots with a made hand unless you know someone will do your betting for you.

You say that by raising too much you only lose money at this level, but I think if you size your bets consistently you cannot go too wrong. If you raise preflop you do not want each and every limpper to call. You want to play this hand with at most 2 other players unless you happen to flop a monster. Betting 1/4 of the pot or less at any level will allow people to chase draws cheaply. When you lose a pot like this you should make sure it was your opponent who was chasing at incorrect prices, rather than you trying to slowplay your way into defeat.

As Ian says, post some hands where you feel that you lost more money by raising more preflop.

Heres an example i just played where i played it like ye suggest upto the flop:

Real Money Ring Game
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
Loaded Pistols 10475180-54745 Holdem No Limit $0.10/$0.20
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Hand Start.
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Seat 1 : pokrologist has $54.97
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Seat 2 : morny has $35.70
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Seat 3 : bigdonKJ has $42.39
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Seat 4 : $ylvio has $39.75
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Seat 5 : NARVALO 93 has $4.40
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Seat 6 : rubi hanah has $4.20
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Seat 7 : Bubba Killa has $8.25
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Seat 8 : funkyred has $17.26
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : Seat 9 : bhyturie has $6.42
[Oct 24 14:00:00] : morny is the dealer.
[Oct 24 14:00:01] : bigdonKJ posted small blind.
[Oct 24 14:00:01] : $ylvio posted big blind.
[Oct 24 14:00:01] : Game [54745] started with 9 players.
[Oct 24 14:00:01] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Oct 24 14:00:01] : Seat 2 : morny has Ah Jc
[Oct 24 14:00:04] : NARVALO 93 called $0.20 and raised $0.20
[Oct 24 14:00:05] : rubi hanah folded.
[Oct 24 14:00:14] : Bubba Killa folded.
[Oct 24 14:00:15] : funkyred folded.
[Oct 24 14:00:15] : bhyturie folded.
[Oct 24 14:00:17] : pokrologist folded.
[Oct 24 14:00:27] : morny called $0.40 and raised $0.80
[Oct 24 14:00:31] : bigdonKJ folded.
[Oct 24 14:00:31] : $ylvio folded.
[Oct 24 14:00:32] : NARVALO 93 called $0.80
[Oct 24 14:00:33] : Dealing flop.
[Oct 24 14:00:33] : Board cards [Th 2c Kc]
[Oct 24 14:00:35] : NARVALO 93 bet $0.20
[Oct 24 14:00:41] : morny called $0.20 and raised $2
[Oct 24 14:00:44] : NARVALO 93 called $2
[Oct 24 14:00:44] : Dealing turn.

Now i played as you suggested here. I re-raised a raise that didnt show much strength so i could get heads up. This worked. I hit a bad flop but he only bet 20c (ye would all be roaring at him for making the min raise) so i had him put on Ax because he didnt show streghth preflop and it was looking like he missed both the K & 10. Now he calls this and this is a perfect example of where ive been losing money. So many people make min bets at this level and now when i show strenth he calls. Right now ive no idea where i am.... and heres how it played out after this

[Oct 24 14:00:44] : Board cards [Th 2c Kc 8c]
[Oct 24 14:00:49] : NARVALO 93 bet $0.20
[Oct 24 14:00:53] : morny called $0.20
[Oct 24 14:00:54] : Dealing river.
[Oct 24 14:00:54] : Board cards [Th 2c Kc 8c Qd]
[Oct 24 14:01:00] : NARVALO 93 bet $0.80 and is All-in
[Oct 24 14:01:05] : morny called $0.80
[Oct 24 14:01:05] : Showdown!
[Oct 24 14:01:05] : Seat 2 : morny has Ah Jc
[Oct 24 14:01:07] : Seat 5 : NARVALO 93 has Ks Jh
[Oct 24 14:01:07] : NARVALO 93 has Pair: Kings
[Oct 24 14:01:07] : Seat 2 : morny has Ah Jc
[Oct 24 14:01:07] : morny has Straight AKQJT
[Oct 24 14:01:07] : morny wins $8.65 with Straight AKQJT
[Oct 24 14:01:17] : Hand is over.

Okay i taught i was bet at this stage when the 8 flopped and i was waiting for the all in. I taught about putting him all in now and probably should have but i was pretty sure he was going to be going all in anyway if i raised so i said id have a look at the last card for 20c. If he had a deeper stack i would have been ready for check/fold at this stage because i had nothing but considering his stack size raising him all in now wouldnt make any difference.

I got lucky and the Q made my straight. Against a deeper stack i wouldnt have got a cheap look at the river and would have had to lay down my hand. Playing my old way i would have called that raise pre-flop, called the 20c raise on the flop and would have invested only 60c with a losing hand that i would have had to drop if he raised me on the turn compared with €3.40 i would have lost playing the way you suggest if he had a deeper stack and raised me on the turn.

Although i agree that raising preflop here was the correct decision, and raising more when i have a strong hand preflop is also the right way to play, im unsure about re-raising someone who has made the minumum raise if i dont have a hand myself. I would at least want to have middle pair or an open ended straight. With nothing here or a gutshot i would much rather call the small raise to see if my hand improves and be ready to fold to a big raise.

p.s i have seen people at this level consistently raise minimum or double min with good hands and i used to play this way too after all.

Thanks for all the advice so far and im beginning to see sense i think
Whats your opinions.

Ste05

DVDfan, this is different.
1 - there isn't a limper here, a donkey has min-raised UTG.
2 - the donkey gave you correct(ish) odds to chase for your gut-shot (by my quick maths at least 11 or 12-1 on the flop) so just call.
3 - he again gave you good odds on the turn, so just call
4 - you hit your hand so get it all-in. (I wouldn't be too worried about the flush here)

Playing against an UTG min-raiser is completely different to playing against 3 or 4 limpers. If you're getting offered these kind of lovely odds, call, there's no need to raise, especially against a shorty.

If for e.g. you had JJ+, I'd suggest you re-raise PF to about half his stack, but this would depend on the dynamics at the table, will a blind over play or try to isolate, etc. etc. etc. But AJo, isn't that great a hand, so this isn't really a great example. Basically you're trying to get him all-in ASAP, either PF or on the flop. [EDIT: But not generally with AJo against an unknown shorty UTG min-raiser]

5starpool

Another thing - don't bluff at this level. If you don't bluff, check when you misss most of the time, and fold to a reasonable bet then you won't be going far wrong. The hand above is not really a place where you should be playing aggressively against an abviously weak player, and you with only AJo.

So don't bluff, and bet when you have something. This should be a good foundation for the lower levels and will be a good base to solidify the basics of the game in your head too.

ianmc38

DVDFan there is a difference between being first in with a raise and reraising an UTG minraise....

masterK

I play at this level on PPP sometimes and have to say when I see a min raise after the flop it generally means you're up against at least top pair with a decent kicker, usually even stronger, it's rarely an attempt at a steal with nothing.

It's basically a bad player thinking he's being clever with what he sees as a good hand.

Mellor

How did the original hand turn out.
If he had the straight flush then unlucky.
But he probably had 77 ans got lucky with a house on the river,

dvdfan

Probably Irrelevant now considering how bad i played it but at least El Stuntman owes someone a pint:

[Oct 24 11:39:04] : morny called $2 and raised $8
[Oct 24 11:39:10] : Coffee Bear folded.
[Oct 24 11:39:11] : morny wins $9.31 as the last player standing
[Oct 24 11:39:13] : Hand is over.

El Stuntman

dvdfan wrote:

Probably Irrelevant now considering how bad i played it but at least El Stuntman owes someone a pint:

[Oct 24 11:39:04] : morny called $2 and raised $8
[Oct 24 11:39:10] : Coffee Bear folded.
[Oct 24 11:39:11] : morny wins $9.31 as the last player standing
[Oct 24 11:39:13] : Hand is over.

what are you drinking Ian - pint of creme de menthe?

ianmc38

Yup. Frappé please.

El Stuntman

I'm gonna look good ordering that in Kehoes before the next Boards game...