Pure Energy Geo-Thermal

jackbauerisgod

Hello All,

Just wondering if anyone can give me some advice. I am building near Tuam in Galway and have been approved for a grant from SEI for solar panels and a wood pellet boiler. I was trying to get quotes for underfloor heating last week and met with a rep from PET in Limerick, He was advising me to go with geo-thermal instead of the wood pellet boiler, They quoted me slightly over 9,000 for the boiler including installation and commissioning and around 14,000 for the same for the geo-thermal. I am just wondering how much work I would have to do myself to get the system in place, Also has anyone got any feedback about geo-thermal and also about the Gerkros wood-pellet boiler as I am not hearing great reports about it.Thanks

alred

Hi,

I am in almost the same situation as yourself although I have not started building yet. I hope to start in aerly Jan on a new build just outside Castlebar. I have done a lot of research into primarily heat pumps and I have only recently started looking at wood pellet boilers as an alternative. My primary concern with wood-pellet boilers is the supply and storage of pellets. I have recieved quotes on wood pellet boilers ranging up to approx €12000 excluding installation. This is bringing them quite close to the cost of an air source heat pump. I know that there are far cheaper boilers on the market but I don't believe that these can compare to the top end models. Out of all the companies that I have contacted PET have impressed me the most. The quote I have received is approx €30,000 for the total package - Air Source heat pump plus approx 3,000 sqft of underfloor heating. I also like the fact that they supply an entire package and not just the Heat Pump.

I am still not 100% convinced on either system (heat pump vs pellet boiler). Based on the figures provided by PET, I have calculated a cost of running the system at approx €1200/year (based on an approx heating requirement of20,000 kWh per year, a seasonal CoP of 2.8 and using day time rates only) not sure if this calculation is correct. I still need to calculate the cost of using a wood pellet boiler.

yop

Alred,
Did you PET give you a rating of 2.8 COP for the HP??

That price for both seems high to be honest, we had a price of installion of geo + UFH in a house of 2075 sq ft for 18k so I would expect that at a very max you would be coming in at about 26k euro but even that seems high.

Of all forms of alternative energy the ASHP would return the lowest COP and runs the least efficent based on people I have talked to an research.
Of the 4 types of heat pumps you fill find that the from best to worst that they run like : Water Sources HP, Bore Hole, Geothermal and Air Sourced HP.

I have a friend who has an air pump in for over year and it is killing him on electric, he too has a 3000sq ft house with UFH. Unless you cannot have any other type of HP then you would have no choice but to go with ASHP.

If I could do it all again I would be torn between bore hole or a pellet boiler. As you say Jack, I too am wary of the price of pellets in this rip off country. But we are screwed with the ESB charges so I am not 100% energy free but I think we should be running at a good rate a year.

Jack, don't heed them about UFH and pellet stoves/boilers, from what I have read it would grand, but I would not recommend oil and UFH.

Best of luck lads with your builds, exciting times ahead

jackbauerisgod

Thanks for that lads,

You have really got me thinking about the pellets or the geo-thermal. I have heard that there are a crowd in Tuam going to manufacture the pellets but this is not confirmed. Our build is approx 1800 sq feet but even though he quoted me 14,000 Euro i never thought to ask was the price of the heat-pump included. Another thing is it ok to have hardwood floors with UFH? Heard its not the best as wood is such a good insulator and also any opinions on this Ecobead insulation that is pumped into the wall cavity???

Do-more

From the little research I have done it seems the problem with Air source is that because of the humide climate in this country the evaporators ice up in colder weather as heat is being stripped out of the air. There is then high electricity consumption as the evaporator is defrosting. In Scandinavia where Airsource is very popular they don't suffer from this problem because even though air temps are much lower so is humidity so they don't have the iceing problems.

I believe that there is a twin evaporator airsource heatpump on the market which overcomes the problem by switching from one evaporator to the other, thus avoiding the high electricity consumption needed for defrosting, but it is expensive at €19,000 for the heatpump alone...

My main concerns with pellets are dampness in the silo making the pellets useless and safety concerns with burn-back into the hopper or silo. Also maintenance costs in the future with auger replacement every 6/7 years etc.

TBH if you are budgeting for €20,000+ for a heating system you should increase your insulation to passive levels and do away with the heating all togeather...

Boggle

If you are going to spend anything like 30k on a system, find someone with a similar system in the area and contact them to see how their system works.

KAGY

jackbauerisgod wrote:

Thanks for that lads,

You have really got me thinking about the pellets or the geo-thermal. I have heard that there are a crowd in Tuam going to manufacture the pellets but this is not confirmed. Our build is approx 1800 sq feet but even though he quoted me 14,000 Euro i never thought to ask was the price of the heat-pump included. Another thing is it ok to have hardwood floors with UFH? Heard its not the best as wood is such a good insulator and also any opinions on this Ecobead insulation that is pumped into the wall cavity???

I don't know if it's of any use now, as the grant has forced up the price of alternative heating systems, but my GSHP was about 10k, and the full cost of the plumbing installation (UF downstairs and rads up) was 17k (ex sanitary fittings). The house is 1800 sq ft and this was 2 years ago (when they hadn't got this grant )

Wobs

Hi alred,

30k seems a bit high, as yop said you should really be looking at about 24-25k. We got GSHP, ufh, 500L tank and all flow and return pipes to manifolds for 24k on a 2900 sq ft house.

Gurgle

jackbauerisgod wrote:

They quoted me slightly over 9,000 for the boiler including installation and commissioning

I would really recommend taking a step back from the pellet stove. I can't see these things (as they are now) being any more than a passing trend.

jackbauerisgod wrote:

and around 14,000 for the same for the geo-thermal.

If the supplier you are talking to even uses the phrase 'geo-thermal' he doesn't know what he's talking about. In Ireland they're ground source heat pumps. There is no significant geo-thermal heat here unless you're going to bore down at least 5 miles. With the deep bore ones, sometimes they're lucky and the bore goes into ground-water and sometimes they're unlucky and the bore is just a hole in the rock. In the latter case the 'back-up' electric heater becomes your main source of central heating and you pay for it on your ESB bill. Shallow trench installations are generally more appropiate here.

I have heard great reports of air-source heat exchangers and we have pretty much the ideal climate for them. Of course a de-humidifier should be fitted on the air intake but many of the 'experts' are plumbers who just follow the translated installation instructions from a country without our levels of humidity.

Rathlynin

€9k sounds like a lot for the Gerkros woodpecker. I know people who have paid €5.5-6k but obviously that did not include installation....I'm a plumber myself and I've commissioned 3 or 4 woodpeckers and i think they're very good...however you should get someone who really knows how to commission the boiler. I bought a flue gas analyser for pellet only and this is essential...after that I know the system works. ...I've done a Kedco boiler too and it looks a good boiler...i think its very like the Opop.I know very little on the heat pump side but i plan to get into them

fits

Heat pumps are very heavy on electricity. I think they're still an evolving technology here and not suitable for everyone.

Have you thought about wood chip rather than pellets? I think wood chip boilers are certainly more than a passing trend. Hearing good feedback about them.
If you'd like more info about them I can put you in touch with someone. He has trained in Austria with one of the companys (they're expensive though) and can commission them.

ardara1

SEI will give you a grant of €8000 per site up to 50 sites.

All you have to do is make a 40% improvement on the building regs - all be it using the old HER method of calculation - It's a dawdle - put a condensing boiler in and get your glazing down to about 1.8 - you'll walk it.

On the other hand - DO YOU WANT TO CUT CO2 EMISSIONS?

Solar - GSHP - wind mill perhaps? - go for it!!!

What about giving your clients wool jumpers and ask them to turn the thermostat down a bit?

Boggle

Solar - GSHP - wind mill perhaps

Solar(water): will give you surplus hot water for 8-9 months a year. Have no illusion about this - there is no year round heat! Definitely worth it though but ensure that its a good solar panel and that you don't get ripped off.

Solar(electric) aim for monochrystalline panels as they perform better in cloudy conditions (aka Ireland!). Ideal for targeting consumption during daylight hours and a good price is around E5/watt.

GSHP: I'm very much against these as I feel that they are just a fad that will end up breaking the poor people who install it (see gurgle's post). Examine the electrical load requirements... Forget about using renewables to offest the costs though as this system is has too large a load requirement.

Wind: Best option if you can avail of it but.... Shop around and do a little research. Its a sad fact but many companies are flooding the market with overpriced rubbish.

Alternatives:
- CoreTech Heating (Airoption) is by far the most economic form of heating available today as its a completely new concept in heating. (Can be used in conjunction with a turbine to heat your home for almost nothing.)
- Insulation. The most important detail when designing your home. If you or your architect doesn't know enough then get someone in who does.

Remember, if you are building now your home will require an energy cert...

Do-more

Boggle wrote:

CoreTech Heating (Airoption) is by far the most economic form of heating available today as its a completely new concept in heating. (Can be used in conjunction with a turbine to heat your home for almost nothing.)

Boggle can you give us a run down on the CoreTech heating threre is very little on the Air Option website to explain what it is.....

boarduser01

Hi,

I too am currently building in County Galway, have been approved to SEI grant for Ground source heat pump, and just about to apply for grant for solar panels. We are having underfloor heating run by the gshp, but we are intending to run the domestic hot water separately in combination with a solid fuel range that we are already using.

From our understanding of all the various research we have done is that the heatpumps work more efficiently doing just UFH. Much of the high electicity costs that people have with heatpumps is apparently more to do with the hot water supply, that is not taken on night rate electricity! People think I am mad for not using the heatpump for the DHW supply.