Post Flop Play 4

dvdfan

Hi,

Im posting a few hands to try and get advice on post flop play that i need to improve. Appreciate any comments

Starting a new hand (#445487271)
Texas Holdem NL $0.25/$0.50 - 2006-10-19 19:29:16 Server
Table Uttoxeter
Seat 1: Killah06Kam ( $47.63 )
Seat 2: YWCLUM ( $40.95 )
Seat 3: brotn11 ( $46.37 )
Seat 4: h0rny ( $24.35 )
Seat 5: LetsKickAce ( $23.70 )
Seat 6: ReSoNaTeR ( $64.25 )
Seat 7: 1DaMatrix ( $53.60 )
Seat 8: basteroid ( $49.38 )
Seat 9: jockeapa ( $36.75 )
Seat 10: max6 ( $107 )
1DaMatrix posts Small Blind $0.25
basteroid posts Big Blind $0.50
Dealing cards
Your cards Kd Th [LetsKickAce]
jockeapa calls $0.50
max6 folds
Killah06Kam folds
YWCLUM folds
brotn11 folds
h0rny folds
LetsKickAce calls $0.50
ReSoNaTeR calls $0.50
1DaMatrix folds
basteroid checks
Dealing Flop Ts 4h 9c
basteroid checks
jockeapa bets $2
LetsKickAce raises $4
ReSoNaTeR folds
basteroid folds
jockeapa calls $2
Dealing Turn Ts 4h 9c Qc
jockeapa bets $6

What do i do next

phantom_lord

Fold, there's no way your ahead here.

I don't think you should be reraising with tp, I'd probably fold on the flop actually.

Rnger

phantom_lord wrote:

I'd probably fold on the flop actually.

thats far too tight. I make that kind of bet out of the blinds with all sorts of crap sometimes (not quite a pot bet however). You should raise more on the flop if your raising at all. I'd fold this turn as he's clearly not scared by your raise

Hectorjelly

whatever you do dont min raise the flop.

On the flop you can flat call (which would be my default), raise or fold. What is jockpea like?

dvdfan

phantom_lord wrote:

Fold, there's no way your ahead here.

I don't think you should be reraising with tp, I'd probably fold on the flop actually.

Interesting, my thinking was ive flopped top pair with a very good kicker. Jockpea hasnt showed much strenth preflop so unlikely he has A10 but possible. I taught he might be just trying to take down the pot with middle or bottom pair or possibly hit top pair too but the odds were good that i had a better kicker. I wanted to see where i really was and a re-raise would tell him i either had top pair OR trips and there would be a good chance to take the pot. Am i reading this wrong?

Ste05

K10 isn't a great hand to be limping with. Especially when short stacked. This should have been folded PF. Although, as you do limp with it, this is basically the ideal flop for you, what I do after someone leading into me here depends on what sort of opponent I'm up against and what my image is like.

It's a fairly nice board for a limped pot, so it could be one to play cautiously, if I'm up against a player who likes to bet with draws I'll probably re-raise and charge him for the privilage of drawing, but for god sake don't min-raise. If you decide you want to re-raise make it a proper raise, around 6-8 would be fine, that way he's not getting the odds to call.

As played, your opponents bet is well sized, because it risks all your stack while only risking $6 of his. I think I fold here, the only hands I think you still beat are 78 J10. Although this might be wrong if the Villain is a complete donkey, but assuming he's a standard player.

EDIT to remove Q10 - well spotted phantom, wasn't paying attention

dvdfan

Hectorjelly wrote:

whatever you do dont min raise the flop.

On the flop you can flat call (which would be my default), raise or fold. What is jockpea like?

Im using pokker office to go back through hands from a day or two ago and im new to it so i cant remember what he was playing like at the time or dont know how to check his stats. He did however catch me in another pot when he showed good strength but im not sure if this was before or after this hand, Sorry i cant be more of a help. Any future hands ill try and post at the time so i can remember more details.

phantom_lord

dvdfan wrote:

Interesting, my thinking was ive flopped top pair with a very good kicker. Jockpea hasnt showed much strenth preflop so unlikely he has A10 but possible. I taught he might be just trying to take down the pot with middle or bottom pair or possibly hit top pair too but the odds were good that i had a better kicker. I wanted to see where i really was and a re-raise would tell him i either had top pair OR trips and there would be a good chance to take the pot. Am i reading this wrong?

Almost no one folds to a min reraise. You have position on him, so flat calling and seeing what he does on the turn will give you an idea of where you are.

Q10 has made two pair ste. So at this point we're only beating someone who bets with a draw or mp. He was utg, a case of limping with aces maybe?

dvdfan

I think my betting is all worng here so, i min raise alot and thats why im happy enough going in with a stack of around $30 Max is $50. I usually play a steady game so i dont see many swings and rarely lose a buy-in. Its allow me to build a roll slowly over the past week this way but maybe i should be lodging the max and playing more agressively stakes wise.

5starpool

dvdfan wrote:

Interesting, my thinking was ive flopped top pair with a very good kicker. Jockpea hasnt showed much strenth preflop so unlikely he has A10 but possible. I taught he might be just trying to take down the pot with middle or bottom pair or possibly hit top pair too but the odds were good that i had a better kicker. I wanted to see where i really was and a re-raise would tell him i either had top pair OR trips and there would be a good chance to take the pot. Am i reading this wrong?

You may well be right to think that you are ahead on the flop, but if you say you bet to represent trips, would you actually have raised if you did have trips? If you did have trips you would not raise to get him out of the pot as this is not really that scary a board for an UTG limper (maybe QJ which is a likely holding here). Raising everytime to get someone out of a pot when you are sure you are ahead, unless there is a dangerous board (such as 8TJ with 2 to a suit) is bad play. Of course you have to mix your game up, but the mixture of over slowplaying and raising to represent a hand that you would actually slowplay to death is not a good one.

Please do not move up levels like you are thinking.

cooker3

Hi dvdfan.

I play at similar levels to you so roughly know what opponants are like etc.
At this level if someone min bets like you do and have in other examples it is nearly always weak, if your playing me and start min betting me then you find yourself being raise pretty much everytime, it is incredibly weak play and you should stop it immediately. Min raising funnily in default usually means a monster but if you shown a few hands and I see what your min raising with and find it is not monsters, I would start pushing on you if I taught you would fold.

For this hand, on flop I would probably flat call in general, this has been talked to on boards to death before, if you raise, all hands you beat fold and all hands that are ahead of you will call or push although at this level that may not always be true.

As for you say you want to represent top pair or trips, I am going to borrow from Fuzzbox here when I say why do you want your represent your hand, you say you think he could have middle or bottom pair, do you want him to fold?
You want to be deceptive as much as possible and this case calling would best do this as you could do this with wide range and he doesn't know if you have it or not which is what you want.

As played btw I fold, you raised him and then he led out on turn, I can't see what your ahead of here.
Good luck

phantom_lord

Rnger wrote:

thats far too tight.

If we flat call the flop what's our plan for the turn, assuming we don't improve if:

A: there's an over card
B: another rag

And villain fires a pot sized bet again?

dvdfan

Heres the Outcome:

LetsKickAce calls $6
Dealing River Ts 4h 9c Qc 5c
jockeapa bets $13.50
LetsKickAce goes All-in $13.20
jockeapa shows Td Qd
Winner is jockeapa $46.55

Well, it played out something like Phantom lord said. I was actually ahead on the flop and should have re-raised more than the minimum on the flop as this wasnt enough to get him off top pair and i should have folded wants the overcard came and he showed strength betting $6.

ronanp

phantom_lord wrote:

Fold, there's no way your ahead here.

I don't think you should be reraising with tp, I'd probably fold on the flop actually.

This one caught my attention. Would you fold top pair with king kicker any time someone else bets the flop? I'd bet this flop for info with middle pair, and likewise would re-raise this flop in the hope of taking it down there and then. Is this wrong? We can only really be behind to AT , T9, a slow played overpair or a set here but could potentially expect any Ten, any Nine, or maybe even an open ended straight draw to bet at us after a flop like that, all of which have more possible hands than hands that beat us? Have I been overvaluing top pair/good kicker in these situations?

valor

fold preflop, call flop

gocall01

Generally fold prelop with this but with 1 limper to me in the CO, I might raise to $2 preflop also.
As played I call the flop an reassess the turn.
As already said the over card and bet gets rid of me I think.

phantom_lord

ronanp wrote:

This one caught my attention. Would you fold top pair with king kicker any time someone else bets the flop? I'd bet this flop for info with middle pair, and likewise would re-raise this flop in the hope of taking it down there and then. Is this wrong? We can only really be behind to AT , T9, a slow played overpair or a set here but could potentially expect any Ten, any Nine, or maybe even an open ended straight draw to bet at us after a flop like that, all of which have more possible hands than hands that beat us? Have I been overvaluing top pair/good kicker in these situations?

Lol, I was surprised to read my post there, what a difference a couple of months make, I'd call the flop, re-evaluate on the turn. certainly wouldn't be raising.