Dublin Water treatment for all grain homebrew

guildofevil

There was some talk about water treatment on another thread and people were wondering if the Dublin Water listed as a reference in Palmers How to Brew, is accurate for the tap water supplied in Dublin.

I can tell you that it is not. The reference water in How to Brew is Dublin water as it was, when Guinness were taking their brewing water straight from the Liffey, outside St. James's Gate.

The water coming out of your tap is different and using the Dublin water information from How to Brew will lead to errors if you try to make water adjustments. My water, in Dublin 7, for example, comes from the Liffey Works, Ballymore Eustace.

I got a water report from Dublin city council's central lab last year and it shows a much softer water profile, than the Dublin water shown in How to Brew, with a Total Hardness (mg CaCO3/l) of 55, almost perfect for pale ales.

The report is about a year and a half old, but I doubt the water hardness has changed much in that time. I would try to get a new one, to see if it has changed, but it took me about two weeks of emailing and phone calls to get this one and I really don't want to go through that again.

Please note that this is the water in my area. I have no idea if the water in the rest of the city is the same, but I am under the impression that it probably is.

Also note that the water report is only relevant if you are mashing grain. If you are brewing an extract beer, you don't need to worry about it.

Here it is, for anyone who is interested:


Liffey Works
Ballymore Eustace

08.03.2005
Water Quality - Guide Values


Volume Produced (m3/day)............................. 250 000

Colour (Hazen)................................................ < 10
Turbidity (NTU).............................................. < 1
pH................................................................... 7.5 - 8.5
Conductivity (µS/cm)....................................... 140 - 150
Chloride (mg/l)................................................ < 25
Sulphate (mg/l)................................................ < 35
Total Dissolved Solids (mg/l)........................... 95
Total Residual Chlorine (mg/l)......................... 0.05 - 0.10
Nitrate (mg N/l)............................................... < 1.0
Nitrite (mg N/l)................................................ < 0.01
Ammonia (mg N/l)........................................... < 0.02
Phosphate (mg P/l)........................................... < 0.02
Aluminium (mg/l)............................................. < 0.1
Iron (mg/l)....................................................... < 0.05
Fluoride (mg/l)................................................. 0.8 - 1.0

Total Coliforms (MPN/100ml).......................... <1
E.coli (MPN/100ml)........................ <1
Heterotrophic Plate Count 22°C (CFU/ml)....... < 20
Heterotrophic Plate Count 37°C (CFU/ml)....... < 20

Odour.............................................................. None
Taste................................................................ None

Magnesium (mg/L)........................................ 1.5
Calcium (mg/L)............................................. 18 - 20
Total Alkalinity (mg CaCO3/l)......................... 28
Calcium Hardness (mg CaCO3/l)..................... 45 - 50
Total Hardness (mg CaCO3/l).......................... 55

Saturation pH.................................................. 8.7 to 9.2
Langelier.......................................................... -2.0 to -1.5
Ryznar............................................................. 10.2 to 11.2

oblivious

Hi guildofevil

Thank you for that information, I live in west Dublin and I think my water also comes from Ballymore Eustace. With that level of hardness it looks like I might be able to do a triple/wit, with some acidification of the mashing water.

guildofevil

I have done both a tripple and a wit with no water adjustment at all.

Both worked well and were very tasty. Must repeat both of these, actually.

oblivious

Have you tried safale T-58 for them, or did you use liquid yeast?

guildofevil

I cultured yeast from the dregs of bottles of Duvel and Chimay, for the doubles, tripples, and wit beers I did.

It's fun to culture yeast and you get to drink the beer it comes with.

oblivious

Any chance you could post the method that you used? I would be very interested in try it my self.

Thanks

guildofevil

It's very easy.

Prepare a starter wort, with a bit of malt extract, or wort saved from a previous brew day, by boiling and cooling it to pitching temperature.

Pour the beer out carefully, so as to leave the sediment in the bottle.

Drink the beer.

Rinse the sediment out of the bottle, into a sanitized starter vessel. I use 2l plastic bottles.

Add the remainder of the starter wort. Fit an airlock and ferment starter as normal.

If you can use the dregs of more than one bottle, do so.

Depending on the number of bottles you use, it may be best to start with a very small starter, say 500ml, then, after the fermentation finishes, step it up, by pouring off most of the starter beer and adding the yeast cake to a fresh 2l starter.

The first time I did this, I did it on impulse, after a few beers with a friend. There were half a dozen bottles of Chimay white on the table and I just boiled up a bit of sugar, added a pinch of yeast nutrient, cooled it to somewhere in the high 20s, used the sugar water to rinse the dregs out into one of the bottles, covered the top with a bit of cling film, secured with a rubber band and left it to ferment.

Not the best method, but it worked and I ended up with a nice double.

Here is an article about it, by someone with a much less slapdash approach:
http://byo.com/departments/1361.html

oblivious

Thank you for that, looks good. I have some T-58 and I am going to use this first. But I will give this method a try.

oblivious

Just though of this, a number of health food shops sell malt extract around 500g. I wonder could you use this to make a starter for yeast propagation?

bigears

I got a water report from Dublin city council's central lab last year and it shows a much softer water profile, than the Dublin water shown in How to Brew, with a Total Hardness (mg CaCO3/l) of 55, almost perfect for pale ales.

So much for that bottle of Carbonate Reducing Solution I ordered All the better if I don't need to use it. I have to admit I always thought in the past that the water in Dublin was soft as there's never any scaling on kettle elements - not the most scientific measure of hardness. I changed my mind when I saw the various sources that reported Dublin's high carbonate level and when I saw the very high carbonate levels in Irish bottled waters it reinforced that belief. Your report finally takes the guesswork out. Hopefully my water is from the same source; I'm in Dublin 3 so I presume it is.

Just though of this, a number of health food shops sell malt extract around 500g. I wonder could you use this to make a starter for yeast propagation?

Apparently this isn't brewing grade malt but maybe it'll be fine for starters.

guildofevil

I had no idea health food shops sell malt extract. Sounds perfect for starters.

bigears

Incidentally the Aussies are very big into culturing from Cooper's ales - if you google it you'll find tons of pages. I think their method is a bit more relaxed than that on some American sites

oblivious

guildofevil wrote:

I had no idea health food shops sell malt extract. Sounds perfect for starters.

It’s used for cooking, I checked the label and it said it was made for 100% malted barley. But I would always check the label just to be sure. Also they are a cheep source of flaked barley, wheat and rye.

oblivious

bigears wrote:

Incidentally the Aussies are very big into culturing from Cooper's ales - if you google it you'll find tons of pages. I think their method is a bit more relaxed than that on some American sites

I think coopers give methods to culture the yeast

Hendrixcat

Here's the water analysis for the area of Swords I live in. I got it a few months back. It's all a little vague, if you ask me, especially the total alkalinity, which is a shame. But it does seem that the water is reasonably hard, in keeping with what we have come to expect from Dublin water. The softness of the water for the Dublin 7 area posted by guildofevil surprises me greatly but at the same time it's nice to know because my parent's live in Cabra so I can always pinch some of theirs for my favourite brew - the pale ale.

Liffey Works
Leixlip
Water Quality - Guide Values
Volume Produced (m3/day)..................125 000

Colour (Hazen)..................................< 10
Turbidity (NTU).................................< 1
pH ............................................7.0-7.5
Conductivity (µS/cm)........................300 - 600
Chloride (mg/L)...............................15 - 25
Sulphate (mg S04/L) ...................35 - 55
Total Dissolved Solids (mg/1) ..........200 - 400
Total Residual Chlorine (mg/L) ..........0.05 -0.15
Nitrate (mg N/L)..............................1.5 - 3.5
Nitrite (mg N/L)...............................< 0.02
Ammonia (mg N/L)...........................< 0.05
Phosphate (mg P/1).........................< 0.02
Aluminium (mg/L).............................< 0.1
Iron (mg/L).....................................< 0.1
Fluoride (mg/L)...............................0.8-1.0

Total Coliforms (MPN/100m1).............<1
E. coli (MPN/100m1).........................<1
Heterotrophic Plate Count 22°C (CFU/ml)..< 20
Heterotrophic Plate Count 37°C (CFU/ml)..< 20

Odour..............None
Taste..............None

Magnesium (mg/L)..............................5-10
Calcium (mg/L)..................................50- 120
Total Alkalinity (mg CaC03/L)...............70 - 200
Calcium Hardness (mg CaC03/L)...........100 - 250
Total Hardness (mg CaC03/L)..............100 - 300
Saturation pH.................................. 7.3 to 8.2
Langelier........................................-0.8 to 0.1
Ryznar...........................................7.2 to 9.0

guildofevil

Wow, that it very vague.

Total hardness from 100-300 so it's reasonably hard to incredibly hard water.

Looks like your water is pretty good for your teeth and bones, with the amount of calcium in it.

I have just located the email address of the person in Dublin City Council's central labs who sent me my last water report and have asked him for an updated one. Will post it when I get it.

bigears

guild,

Could you PM the email address as I'd like to find out if my area is covered by the same report?

oblivious

Hi Guild/Hendrixcat


Who did you apply to get your water information?

Hendrixcat

The analysis is carried out in the central lab, Marrowbone Lane I got the number through Fingal Council. If you phone your council areas water department they'll give you the number. I can't recall the number at the moment. If possible speak to the main scientist. He's a nice bloke and posted the details to me the next day.

oblivious

I was just on to Fingal water department, all of Fingals water comes for Liffey Works
Leixlip. Although they said that swords water came form the bog of the ring, I think.

Total Hardness 100-300
Carbonate 200

It appears to be of average hardness, I wonder if it will effect brewing lighter colored beer (wits and such)? I suppose I could pre boil my water to remove the Carbonate and treat the mash with lactic acid to reduce the ph.

The porterhouse have their brewery in my area, I wonder how they get around the water hardness problem

Hendrixcat

I would imagine lactic acid would take care of the pH. Large scale brewers have been known to use hydrochloric acid to lower the pH. The Porterhouse probably have little difficulty using the local water supply as I'm sure they have water chemist working for them, sorting out all the things that are such a problem for us home brewers.

Hendrixcat

On the subject of suitable brewing water, I spotted some Kerry Spring bottled water in Dunnes with a bicarb of 90mg/L making it very suitable for pale beer brewing. It's available in 5 litre bottles and is cheap to buy.

bigears

Sounds like a great option, must look out for this.

Ceddy

oblivious wrote:

a number of health food shops sell malt extract around 500g.

Oblivious is this a specific shop in Dublin or a health food chain ?

oblivious

I have seen malt extract in health foods shops on Grafton Street and in the Blanchardstown centre. I would use it for a starter maybe, I don’t thing if I would replace malt extract form the grape and grain with it.

oblivious

Hi all

Thought this site maybe of use to those who by bottled water for brewing, Spar seemed to have the lowest bicarbonate followed by Mace

Here is the link http://www.mineralwaters.org/

Hendrixcat

Strange that the Kerry Spring mentioned on the site has a bicarb of 228 while it states 90 on the side of the bottle. Could be a different brand but it's unlikely that there are two bottled waters with the exact same name. I did a pale mash using Kerry Spring with no addition of acidifying agents last week and it worked fine. I can't see how it could have worked with a bicarb of 228.

oblivious

I did not notice that, I used Kerry Spring also last week for a triple and had very vigorous fermentation so I presume the water is ok

bigears

Funnily enough I have a 500ml bottle of Kerry Spring on my desk and it says 228 mg/l Bicarbonate on the bottle.

beardybrewer

Don't know if this is of use to everyone but I used it to enter the water profile for Galway

http://www.pmgeiser.ch/mineral/index.php?func=disp&parval=1165&PHPSESSID=bbc0dcdaa9f64b6f5e5956f0d41d5198

Ahh sorry, I see this is the same link as above. So this is bottled water? didn't really pay close attention. Surely there is a gov't source with this info for tap water in various counties/cities?

guildofevil

newkie wrote:

Surely there is a gov't source with this info for tap water in various counties/cities?

You would think that, wouldn't you?

I had to chase around emailing various people for two weeks before I got a water report for my area. I recently emailed the person I got it off the last time, to get an updated one, but I got no reply.

Here's a question: Do people use anything to test the pH of the mash, or do they take the word of the water report, do the adjustment calculations and assume that everything is OK in the tun?

I have been using pH strips, but find I go through a lot of them if I end up having to make adjustments on the fly. My new pH meter is winging it's way from Shanghai as we speak, so things are set to improve in that department.

oblivious

I use ph strips, borrowed form the lab! They looked like the mash was hitting around 5.5. How much did the meter cost u? an make use that the probe is all ways kept wet, if it let go dry it will need to be replaced and that just a waste of money

Hendrixcat

I use strips from the lab also. Can't help but think that a pH meter is overkill for a home brewer. The calibrating soultions can be pricey too and need to be replaced as you deplete them. I usually do two pH checks per mash. It usually falls into range easy enough if the waters right and stays there for the duration of the mash.

guildofevil

I got it off ebay and it set me back €20 including shipping. The seller is the manufacturer. It's the same as this one:

EBay Digital pH meter

oblivious

Hi all

Just slightly off topic, I was wondering how much water you guys sparge with, at this time I only batch sparge. I generally use 1.2 liters per pound of grain.

guildofevil

I don't know why you think it's overkill. I take my brewing pretty seriously and I think this device will help. I got the pH meter for a reasonable price and it's not as if I get the pH test strips for free.

My latest order to GnG is about the €100 mark and there's no equipment in that, just grains, hops, etc. Better equipment means more control over the process, so you get more out of the ingredients.

Compared to the money and time I spent on my Cornelius Keg set-up, this is nothing.

My next piece of kit is going to be a brix refractometer. After that, who knows?

guildofevil

I use 2.5 – 3 litres per Kilo of grain myself. I batch sparge too, so it is easy to simply collect the desired volume of wort for the boil.

Hendrixcat

guildofevil wrote:

I don't know why you think it's overkill. I take my brewing pretty seriously and I think this device will help. I got the pH meter for a reasonable price and it's not as if I get the pH test strips for free.

My latest order to GnG is about the €100 mark and there's no equipment in that, just grains, hops, etc. Better equipment means more control over the process, so you get more out of the ingredients.

Compared to the money and time I spent on my Cornelius Keg set-up, this is nothing.

My next piece of kit is going to be a brix refractometer. After that, who knows?

I hadn't looked into the pH meters that much but the ones I had seen were very pricey and very fragile, like the ones in my lab. The one you mentioned seems very resonable. Also, I had forgotten about your love of gadgets.

oblivious

A ph meter at Hop and grape is 70 Stg not including p+p that’s a nice find you got their

Hendrixcat

And you think we've got mashing problems. Check out the bicarb on this baby.......

http://www.pmgeiser.ch/mineral/index.php?func=disp&parval=1776&PHPSESSID=bbc0dcdaa9f64b6f5e5956f0d41d5198

bigears

I got a tub of this with my latest order from H&G (I've included a link from a different site as I don't think it's on H&G's site yet)

http://www.homebrewers.com/product/800444

Sounds like an easy ph fix, don't ask me how it works. Up to now I haven't even considered mash PH but I'm going to check it out in future. I plan to use this in conjunction with Brupaks CRS which I used in my last mash to reduce the carbonates. Link for CRS here (pdf): http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.j.edge/bcpdf/BRUPAKS_PROFESSIONAL_BREWING_AIDS_2005.pdf

I used CRS with bottles of 'Crystal Spring' water, which is pretty widely available and normally around 2 euro per 5 litres. It worked out around 5ml per 5 litres.

Referring back to the Kerry Spring discrepancy in bicarbonates - it seems that their big bottles (3 litres?) are 90mg/l bicarbonates whereas their 500ml bottles are 228. Are they being bottled from different sources? It does seem strange..

oblivious

Looks like I will beer ordering some of that as well


It's just a good buffer, most drinking water are really very acidic or basic, not to the level they will hurt up. So most normal water dose not have the ionic strenght to overcome the 5 star and thus lock the ph at 5.2


I also got some of the kerry spring large bottles in Dunne’s stores; they were also 90mg/ml

bigears

Looks like I will beer ordering some of that as well

something on your mind?

Adeptus Titanicus

On foot of the first post in this thread I sent a mail to Customer Services at Dublin City Council to try and get more detailed info on the water supply in my area. They said they forwarded it to water@dublincity.ie, but that bounces back. Has anyone contacted the water guys in DCC? I can't find any direct contact info for the water division on the DCC website

(I guess I could always use the phone and actually talk to someone )

guildofevil

I sent them a mail last Thursday, but have had nothing back but an automated response.

This is typical of Ireland. All we want to know is the composition of our drinking water. This is stuff they test for regularly, but they don't seem to publish it.

Would it be too much trouble for them to put the information on their website?

I can get water reports for most of the USA here: http://www.epa.gov/safewater/dwinfo/index.html but I cannot get the same info my own tap water.

Adeptus Titanicus

I called Customer Service (222 2222) to get a number for the Water Division. He game the name of a chap and the direct number, but since 12 o'clock today all I get is an engaged tone. Of course, I may have written the number down wrong

guildofevil

Adeptus Titanicus wrote:

...but since 12 o'clock today all I get is an engaged tone

A constant engaged tone on the extension of a civil servant? I'm shocked!

Adeptus Titanicus wrote:

They said they forwarded it to water@dublincity.ie, but that bounces back. Has anyone contacted the water guys in DCC?

I got the same answer from customerservices@dublincity.ie Tried emailing water@dublincity.ie which, as you said, bounced and have now emailed the bounce message to customerservices@dublincity.ie asking for another way to get the information.

I can feel my stubborn streak kicking in. I will not be fobbed off and if I have to kick up a stink, I will.

I mean, surely we have a right to know what's in our drinking water?

noby

I called Customer Service (222 2222)

I can't be the only one with a De la soul song stuck in my head now.

bigears

It wasn't stuck in my head.

It is now :rolleyes:

Hendrixcat

The phone is the way to go on with this problem. Just phone your local council and they should give you the number for the central lab on marrowbone lane in Dublin (at least that's what Fingal CC did for me) The guy in the lab was sound and posted out the water analysis for Swords the next day. Sure, just phone Fingal CC even if you're not living in the area. The guy there will give you the number for the central lab, anyway. Just say you're concerned about water hardness or summat.

I spotted on the Kerry Springs packs a difference between the smaller bottles and 3/5 litre bottles. The smaller ones state 'Natural Irish Mineral Water' and 'Bottled at source' the larger ones merely state that the water is bottled by Kerry Spring but says nothing about the source. Must be a factor or just could be labelling differences.