Why do you hurt me so?

ntlbell

PokerStars 6 handed 3/6

MP 3200
Hero Button 2200
(stacks rounded up)

I play with MP a lot he's a very tight player, I've never ever seen him get out of line.
His image of me would be a fairly LAG with a touch of maniac and my re-raising range here is very wide.


MP makes it $24 from MP

I make it $75 on the button with AA

MP stalls and eventually calls

Flop (159)

K 10 Jr

MP checks

I bet $120

MP CRAI.

I have never seen MP do this so deep. (I'm starting to think it's not even him at the wheel)

You?

Lafortezza

Check behind on the flop, fold now. You're only in for a little of your stack and too many hands have you in trouble.

ianmc38

lafortezza wrote:

Check behind on the flop, fold now. You're only in for a little of your stack and too many hands have you in trouble.

Holla.

valor

easy flop check

are u seriously considering calling?this is a ridic easy fold

cardshark202

valor wrote:

easy flop check

are u seriously considering calling?this is a ridic easy fold

Yup

califano

How much was his check raise?

You were right to bet the flop but its a fold now i reckon. The only hand i'd say you could be ahead of with his ch/r is AK. Looks like he has 3-of-a-kind.

peeko

OR AQ. I fold

Bandana boy

My initial instinct would be to fold here but this raise does not make any sense at all

Reraising nearly 10x times the pot really suggests he doesnt want action

But still feel this can not possibly be AK so it is still a fold but secretly i hope you called just to tell us what the hell this was

ntlbell

rounders123 wrote:

How much was his check raise?

You were right to bet the flop but its a fold now i reckon. The only hand i'd say you could be ahead of with his ch/r is AK. Looks like he has 3-of-a-kind.

All in rounders...

Hitman Actual

What's a good range for villain here? AJ+, TT+? Against that you actually win close to 50% of the time, and you just have to win 43% of the time to break-even. Take AJ out of the equation, though, and it's worse than the 43% you need to win. So, will opponent a) call preflop with all those hands (he might considering you're a bit of maniac), and b) will he CRAI with all those hands? I think it's much closer than the easy fold that's been suggested.

Regarding the flop bet, Fuzzbox had an opinion last week where betting the flop against a tight player was good. Can't remember the exact reasoning though, but maybe this is a similar scenario.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hectorjelly

You should raise much more preflop

I would check that flop

I would fold to his all in despite the fact Im fairly sure he has QQ.

Hectorjelly

lenny_leonard wrote:

Regarding the flop bet, Fuzzbox had an opinion last week where betting the flop against a tight player was good. Can't remember the exact reasoning though, but maybe this is a similar scenario.

it was because the guy was so tight he wouldnt bluff us later in the hand or put money in with a worse hand anyway - I wouldnt really agree with him

ntlbell

lenny_leonard wrote:

What's a good range for villain here? AJ+, TT+? Against that you actually win close to 50% of the time, and you just have to win 43% of the time to break-even. Take AJ out of the equation, though, and it's worse than the 43% you need to win. So, will opponent a) call preflop with all those hands (he might considering you're a bit of maniac), and b) will he CRAI with all those hands? I think it's much closer than the easy fold that's been suggested.

Regarding the flop bet, Fuzzbox had an opinion last week where betting the flop against a tight player was good. Can't remember the exact reasoning though, but maybe this is a similar scenario.

He's one of the tightest players I know.

AJ and AQ can be pretty much ruled out AK/TT+

This move is totally out of character for him.

Hitman Actual

ntlbell wrote:

He's one of the tightest players I know.

AJ and AQ can be pretty much ruled out AK/TT+

If that's the case, then you're an 11/10 favourite. Surely it has to be a call based on that.

Edit: Assuming he plays all those hands the same way.

Ste05

That's some CRAI, no matter what he has it's just mad. I can't see him doing this with KK or AQ. 1010, JJ, K10, KJ is just suicide. QQ is possibly an option as he'll be thinking that he at least has outs if you have KK and call, probably expecting you to fold everything else. Although with this retarded bet who knows what's going on in his mind, he does have a stack of 5x Buy-In's so he must be doing something right or just getting hit in the face.

TBH I'm completely baffled with this one.

I think I'd have to fold here just out of confusion, but I really have a feeling in my stomach that he wouldn't do this with anything that beats you, hence I really hope your balls are made of steel and made a crying call so we can see what he did this with. And I just pray it was Q9 and you hit a Q on the River...

EDIT: Just saw AQ, AJ are ruled out, therefore so is KJ, etc. etc. I can't see him doing this with trips, QQ would be my guess, but I have little girly balls and would probably still fold, just in case....

Gholimoli

I really don’t understand villain’s move here given his description but I would still fold this.
As for betting the flop or checking im with the checking behind group on this:

Checking allows you to make it to show down for cheap as your hand at the moment has some show down value .you will also give your self a chance to catch up if your behind.
If you bet the only hand that this player will call with that you have beat would be AK but AK would prob bet out on the turn which you can call.
Betting this flop against him doesn’t really accomplish much IMO .if he comes over the top it will tell you that your beat and you shouldn’t put more money in it but if you check the flop it means you don’t really intend to do that anyway.

El Stuntman

he hit the wrong button but you have to fold

NickyOD

Foldorama.

careca

I'd agree with most here. If I had to guess I would also say QQ but I wouldn't put my stack on the line just to find out. He certainly doesn't want a call but has outs if he is called.

willis

I fold aswell.

BTW Ntl, why do you play cash games on Stars with no rakeback etc...is it fishy? Have you played much 3/6 on Tribeca or any other sites...how do they compare in your opinion?

ntlbell

I'm not gong to drag this one out too much it seems pretty obvious most people fold here.

After I puked, I called for time and came to the same conclusion as Ste05.

I just couldn't see this guy shoving here with anything that had me beat.

I call, he has QQ and MHIG.

I was suprised to see so many people say it's an easy fold.

Are stack sizes making it so?

cardshark202

ntlbell wrote:

I'm not gong to drag this one out too much it seems pretty obvious most people fold here.

After I puked, I called for time and came to the same conclusion as Ste05.

I just couldn't see this guy shoving here with anything that had me beat.

I call, he has QQ and MHIG.

I was suprised to see so many people say it's an easy fold.

Are stack sizes making it so?

I agree it looks like QQ a lot, but if he has anything else, you're fooked. So you're either a small favourite or miles behind.

ianmc38

ntlbell wrote:

I'm not gong to drag this one out too much it seems pretty obvious most people fold here.

After I puked, I called for time and came to the same conclusion as Ste05.

I just couldn't see this guy shoving here with anything that had me beat.

I call, he has QQ and MHIG.

I was suprised to see so many people say it's an easy fold.

Are stack sizes making it so?

Yes 400 BB deep, makes this a fold (for me anyways) rather than a call.

Gholimoli

ntlbell wrote:

I'm not gong to drag this one out too much it seems pretty obvious most people fold here.

After I puked, I called for time and came to the same conclusion as Ste05.

I just couldn't see this guy shoving here with anything that had me beat.

I call, he has QQ and MHIG.

I was suprised to see so many people say it's an easy fold.

Are stack sizes making it so?

based on your description he is doing this with QQ,KK,JJ,TT.
against that range your fecked.
even though his push there is very strange but its strange no matter what he holds so thats why i think its a fold.

edit to say:
i wasnt clear what i meant.
what i mean is his play is strange all together and strange players can do this with a set as well so basically his range does not change and has us crushed.

ntlbell

willis wrote:

I fold aswell.

BTW Ntl, why do you play cash games on Stars with no rakeback etc...is it fishy? Have you played much 3/6 on Tribeca or any other sites...how do they compare in your opinion?

No I don't play on tribeca at all (the odd tourney) Gholimoli plays on both IIRC and will probably give you a better idea on the differences.

Pokerstars is where I first started playing and just never moved.

Ste05

ntlbell wrote:

I call, he has QQ and MHIG.

Balls of Steel NTL, Excellent Call.

Hectorjelly

careca wrote:

I'd agree with most here. If I had to guess I would also say QQ but I wouldn't put my stack on the line just to find out. He certainly doesn't want a call but has outs if he is called.

? If you think he doesnt want a call then you should call him

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

based on your description he is doing this with QQ,KK,JJ,TT.
against that range your fecked.
even though his push there is very strange but its strange no matter what he holds so thats why i think its a fold.

edit to say:
i wasnt clear what i meant.
what i mean is his play is strange all together and strange players can do this with a set as well so basically his range does not change and has us crushed.

He's not a strange player tho, as i said this is totally out of character

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

? If you think he doesnt want a call then you should call him

Can you explain the difference between his comment and yours HJ?

“I would fold to his all in despite the fact Im fairly sure he has QQ.”

califano

ntlbell wrote:

He's not a strange player tho, as i said this is totally out of character

Sounds to me he got rocky fever and died of rockiness in the rock quarry.

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

Can you explain the difference between his comment and yours HJ?

“I would fold to his all in despite the fact Im fairly sure he has QQ.”

It really looks like he has a pair, tens or upwards. He is far more likely to have QQ than any one other pair because all four queens are not accounted for, so I thought QQ was his most likely hand, yet since I put him on either a set or QQ I thought it was a fold. We are behind that range (allthough maybe close enough to call) - the more I thought he didnt want us to call the all in the more likely his hand is to be QQ and so I would call.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

It really looks like he has a pair, tens or upwards. He is far more likely to have QQ than any one other pair because all four queens are not accounted for, so I thought QQ was his most likely hand, yet since I put him on either a set or QQ I thought it was a fold. We are behind that range (allthough maybe close enough to call) - the more I thought he didnt want us to call the all in the more likely his hand is to be QQ and so I would call.

no i know how the hand played and what his range was and what his most likely holding was.
i was just interested that some one said "even though i dont think he wants a call im going to fold this" and i think this is pretty much how every one felt about this hand.
but you replied to him saying "if you dont think he wants a call then you should call" but just before that you said "despite being fairly sure he has QQ im going to fold."
if you are sure he has QQ then you should call and i was just wondering what the difference was with that posters comments and yours!

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

"even though i dont think he wants a call im going to fold this" and i think this is pretty much how every one felt about this hand.

I don't think everyone was saying that at all, I certainly thought it was so mad it could easily be trips or QQ, I never thought he didn't want to be called, I actually thought this kind of bet is either he's praying for a call or has little to nothing. The usual nuts or nothing kinda bet.

Not that he didn't want to get called.

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

no i know how the hand played and what his range was and what his most likely holding was.
i was just interested that some one said "even though i dont think he wants a call im going to fold this" and i think this is pretty much how every one felt about this hand.
but you replied to him saying "if you dont think he wants a call then you should call" but just before that you said "despite being fairly sure he has QQ im going to fold."
if you are sure he has QQ then you should call and i was just wondering what the difference was with that posters comments and yours!

I should of said most likely rather than fairly sure

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

I don't think everyone was saying that at all, I certainly thought it was so mad it could easily be trips or QQ, I never thought he didn't want to be called, I actually thought this kind of bet is either he's praying for a call or has little to nothing. The usual nuts or nothing kinda bet.

Not that he didn't want to get called.

every one apart from Ste my apologies.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

every one apart from Ste my apologies.

LOL, not what I was trying to get at there, but hey...

I was just saying I got the feeling from most of the posts was that the CRAI was a nuts or nothing kind of bet, not that he didn't want to get called.

But it's just getting into Pedantics now, so we can probably leave it there, seeing as HJ has cleared it up.

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

LOL, not what I was trying to get at there, but hey...

I was just saying I got the feeling from most of the posts was that the CRAI was a nuts or nothing kind of bet, not that he didn't want to get called.

But it's just getting into Pedantics now, so we can probably leave it there, seeing as HJ has cleared it up.

When you say nuts or nothing it means either he has the nuts or his bluffing and doesn’t have anything.
I think it was made clear from the OP that this player is extremely tight so him raising and calling a reraise kind of rules out the nothing bit on a KJT board.
OP also ruled out AQ etc so he cant have the nuts there so its either a set or QQ and that’s pretty much I think what most people were thinking with the most likely hand being QQ.

careca

Can I also state that when I said he "doesn't want a call" I should really have said "he's happy to take it now, but has outs if called". Slightly different. Anyway, good call NTL, but I think I would still have folded.