In The Money - shortstacked - push range?

jimbling

okay, I think I have developed a habit of been a bit too frisky with hands in these situations.

With a lot of these large MTTs a situation like this occurs once you get close/just inside the money.
There's about 3-8 players at the top end... the guys with all the chips. Then the majority of others are actually shortstacked.
For e.g.
16 players left. blinds are 5k/10k. You have 84k. 7min to next level. As usual, the money doesn't start to rise until top 10, with top 3 been the objective.
So you are very shortstacked, but the thing is, so is the majority of your table, with only 3 people over 100k, and only 1 over 150k. Your image is pretty tight, havent really been in any hands (other than the one in the BB sticky 1010 Vs 83o), but I have been surviving by stealing occasionally.
How large should your range be? How concerned with position are you? What other factors do you deal with, (e.g. obv you don't play with crap when the bb has 15k left etc)
whats your range for: (assume folded to you)
UTG
MP
LP

brianmc

At that point I'm more concerned with position, stack sizes and image than with hand ranges. I'm expecting that there will be more opportunities to take down pots uncontested than there will be playable hands.

Hand ranges only come into it if you don't think the other players in the pot will lay down and you have a hand that might be worth showing down against them.

jimbling

brianmc wrote:

At that point I'm more concerned with position, stack sizes and image than with hand ranges. I'm expecting that there will be more opportunities to take down pots uncontested than there will be playable hands.

Hand ranges only come into it if you don't think the other players in the pot will lay down and you have a hand that might be worth showing down against them.

In a situation like this, I seem to find it more difficult to find those opportunities you seem to think will happen regularly.
With so many shortstacks, it's unusual for it to make it around to you, without an all in, when you're in late position. And the closer you come to EP, the riskier the move is without some sort of hand to fall back on - ie at least some connectors.
Thats why i was asking the question:
Would you go all in from UTG/UTG+1, and what would you need in your hand to do so?
In MP/LP and your looking to steal the blinds, do you go with ANY TWO at all - like 83o in my sticky example?

I have been of the mindset of "almost" any two when the situations you speak of do arise, but I seem to be going out of tournaments aound the 10-27 position a lot. Much too much for my liking....

brianmc

With a reasonably tight or sensible image, if I'm having trouble getting into the pot first, I would push from EP with connectors, pairs and AJ+. I'd throw away small Aces and Kings because the hands most likely to call you are very likely to dominate you. With connectors you have a better chance of at least not being totally dominated.

If my image is less than tight... (something I'm more familiar with...) then two things...

1. I'm more likely not to end up with 8 BBs in the first place. I'll probably have busted out while gambling with 20BBs or I'll have a stack to play with.

2. My range changes... Mid pocket pairs and very big Aces from EP. Mid Aces and any pocket pairs from LP going to any two cards on the button. All of this assumes that you are first to enter the pot. If anybody else has so much as limped in, then you're back to "what's his range? what do I beat?" territory.

Gholimoli

The most important thing you need to understand about this situation is that you are GAMBLING.
The proper strategy here is to be willing to gamble and understand that the outcome of a gamble could go either way .if it goes your way then you have chance of finishing deep and if not then you will bust. But you can’t be upset about busting if you are knowingly gambling.
You need to be aware that peoples pushing range are wide open now and is practically any two.
The impact this has on you is that you need to open up your calling range.
For example if some one pushes from EP and they have the same stack as you then calling with A6+,KT+ is fine whereas before you would never think about calling with that hand.
As for pushing you can prob push with any two as well if the pot has not been opened unless you have seen the table adjust properly to the stack sizes resulting in a lot of calls with marginal hands.

jimbling

brianmc wrote:

With a reasonably tight or sensible image, if I'm having trouble getting into the pot first, I would push from EP with connectors, pairs and AJ+. I'd throw away small Aces and Kings because the hands most likely to call you are very likely to dominate you. With connectors you have a better chance of at least not being totally dominated.

cheers....
I think i play exactly like this other than my A range. I think this needs to be constricted a bit. I've beenplaying A8+ really, and as you say, the only calls you're going to get are probably going to dominate you. I also find small to med pairs are causing me some trouble, in that when you're called your at best 55% fav, and often hugely dominated. But it's almost impossible to fold these when you're so shortstacked.

If my image is less than tight... (something I'm more familiar with...) then two things...

1. I'm more likely not to end up with 8 BBs in the first place. I'll probably have busted out while gambling with 20BBs or I'll have a stack to play with.

2. My range changes... Mid pocket pairs and very big Aces from EP. Mid Aces and any pocket pairs from LP going to any two cards on the button. All of this assumes that you are first to enter the pot. If anybody else has so much as limped in, then you're back to "what's his range? what do I beat?" territory.

agree with most of this as well.... and I would often be in this bracket too depending on my mood/confidence throughout the game.

I reckon I may need to tighten up a small bit, but generally I'm probably playing it pretty okay. Just depressed with the amount of times I've gotton as far as the money in these big MTTs and then ended up winning just a couple of hundred.... messes with the head

jimbling

Gholimoli wrote:

The most important thing you need to understand about this situation is that you are GAMBLING.
The proper strategy here is to be willing to gamble and understand that the outcome of a gamble could go either way .if it goes your way then you have chance of finishing deep and if not then you will bust. But you can’t be upset about busting if you are knowingly gambling.
You need to be aware that peoples pushing range are wide open now and is practically any two.
The impact this has on you is that you need to open up your calling range.
For example if some one pushes from EP and they have the same stack as you then calling with A6+,KT+ is fine whereas before you would never think about calling with that hand.
As for pushing you can prob push with any two as well if the pot has not been opened unless you have seen the table adjust properly to the stack sizes resulting in a lot of calls with marginal hands.

Ya, as mentioned, think I've just been on the wrong end of the gamble a lot of late. BUT.... I really would not like calling with A6 with an EP all in of the same stack. I don't see the point of this?
Perhaps this is a weakness.... I open my calling range, but nowhere near this much.

El Stuntman

Harrington is very good on this particular scenario

Gholimoli

jimbling wrote:

Ya, as mentioned, think I've just been on the wrong end of the gamble a lot of late. BUT.... I really would not like calling with A6 with an EP all in of the same stack. I don't see the point of this?
Perhaps this is a weakness.... I open my calling range, but nowhere near this much.

if you consider that proper strategy here would be to push with almost any two once your first to enter the pot then you can see that my recommended range is actually a fav against that range.

I mean if I was in the situation you described I would open push with 22+,A2+,K9+,QT+,89,T9,JT, etc

Now how do you think A6+,KT+ weights against that range?

brianmc

jimbling wrote:

I also find small to med pairs are causing me some trouble, in that when you're called your at best 55% fav, and often hugely dominated.

Hugely dominated is bad. 55% favourite is party time! Hey, 45% underdog is good if the initial push can be justified by a good chance that you take the pot uncontested.

jimbling wrote:

Ya, as mentioned, think I've just been on the wrong end of the gamble a lot of late. BUT.... I really would not like calling with A6 with an EP all in of the same stack. I don't see the point of this?
Perhaps this is a weakness.... I open my calling range, but nowhere near this much.

Calling an EP all in with A6o if you consider it to have say a 55% chance against his range is also party time. You need to double up.

Calling an EP all in with A6o againnst a rock where your either dominated or screwed is bad. obviously...

brianmc

El Stuntman wrote:

Harrington is very good on this particular scenario

I'll second that.

Summary is as follows...

If you are the shortstack and likely to be next out then gamble it up and try to get out of the danger zone.

If you are not the shortstack and unlikely to be next out then don't gamble it up unless you become the shortstack. The point being that by letting the shortstack get knocked out you make more money.

Obviously this should be adapted for situations where say, 9th gets €10 and 8th gets €20 but 1st gets €1000 but the principle is there.

El Stuntman

brianmc wrote:

I'll second that.

Summary is as follows...

If you are the shortstack and likely to be next out then gamble it up and try to get out of the danger zone.

If you are not the shortstack and unlikely to be next out then don't gamble it up unless you become the shortstack. The point being that by letting the shortstack get knocked out you make more money.

Obviously this should be adapted for situations where say, 9th gets €10 and 8th gets €20 but 1st gets €1000 but the principle is there.

yah, only problem is if you are colour blind...gets v confusing betwene the red zone/orange zone/green zone etc

all the while trying to work out your M and your P, tis enough to drive a man over the edge!!

(that's why I don't bother)

Gholimoli

El Stuntman wrote:

yah, only problem is if you are colour blind...gets v confusing betwene the red zone/orange zone/green zone etc

all the while trying to work out your M and your P, tis enough to drive a man over the edge!!

(that's why I don't bother)

No no no
The colour zones don’t actually exist silly.
There is no actual red zone that is of a different colour than green zone.
Its like … its like the colours of a traffic light…
It doesn’t actually exist but they are there to give you indications …

brianmc

Gholimoli wrote:

Its like … its like the colours of a traffic light…
It doesn’t actually exist but they are there to give you indications …

...and that's why I did it Garda. It's not like I was breaking any laws that actually exist.

phantom_lord

El Stuntman wrote:

Harrington is very good on this particular scenario

Yep, just reading this in vol3 now.

El Stuntman

Gholimoli wrote:

No no no
The colour zones don’t actually exist silly.
There is no actual red zone that is of a different colour than green zone.
Its like … its like the colours of a traffic light…
It doesn’t actually exist but they are there to give you indications …

Gholimoli: Professor of Metaphysical Psychology

scary stuff!!

El Stuntman

phantom_lord wrote:

Yep, just reading this in vol3 now.

I was thinking of Vol II, was browsing Vol III in da bookshop the other day - any good?

phantom_lord

El Stuntman wrote:

I was thinking of Vol II, was browsing Vol III in da bookshop the other day - any good?

Haven't finished it yet, he does have a section on bubble play in stt, where basically he says if you have a high m you have a very tight calling range against a big stack, and a wider range when short. Which on reflection is pretty obvious :rolleyes: so probably not worth spending 20/30 yoyos on

EDIT: sorry I'm half asleep...this thread's about pushing not calling d'oh. vol.2 covers that pretty well

Really the whole things about finding holes and leaks, and testing what you've learned from the other books. My cousins gave me a copy and I'm just reading it out of semi interest more than anything else, I don't think it would be as valuable as his other two, it's just a little add on, intresting to browse through, but certainly not essential.

His points system might be a bit off tho...so far it looks like I'm gonna be classed as a world class player

NickyOD

This is quite an old post of mine but maybe its worth posting again because shortstack play is probably one of the biggest holes in most players games. I never knew I used to be this preachy.

**********************************************************
Let\'s say the blinds are 100/200 (for easier math.) You have 2000 chips.

In this first situation, you are in the SB with T-9s against an average tight player. They will call your allin with A-K, A-Q, A-J, K-Q, A-A, K-K, Q-Q, J-J, and T-T. You have to decide what you have to do.

Those hands constitute (.018) + (.048), or 6.6% of possible hands your opponent has been dealt. (I know I am ignoring the fact you have T-9, but that is a minute difference and would only serve to complicate this beyond reason.) This means that you will not be called 93.4% of the time. Your win% against this hand range, when called, is 33.7%. There is 300 in the pot and you have 1900 more. So your expected value is:

EV = .934(300) + .066*.337(2200) + .066*.663(-1900)
EV = +245.99, or slightly less than +1.25BBs on average. So, in this situation, moving in is a correct move.


In this next situation, you are in the SB against a maniac with a huge stack. You have A-4o. You guess the maniac\'s calling range to be any of the 13 A-x hands, any of the 13 pairs, and the other 6 Broadway hands. This means you will be called 28.7% of the time and will win 42.0% of the times you are called.

EV = .713(300) + .287*.420(2200) + .287*.580(-1900)
EV = +162.81, or about .79 BBs gained on average. Soa gain pushing is obviously the right move.


Now you are in the cutoff (Button -1) on the bubble with three very tight players behind you, that will only call with A-A, K-K, Q-Q, and A-K. One of the three will pick up one of these hands 2.55% of the time. Ignoring the times when more that one person picks up one of these hands, there is 7.4% one of your opponents has one of those hands. You have 9-2s. You will win only 25.3% of the time you are called. You are moving in for 2000 to win 300.

EV = .926(300) + .074*.253(2300) + .074*.747(-2000)
EV = 210.30, or an average gain of slightly more than one big blind. Surprisingly, this is a positive expected value move.


Finally, you are in EP (Button -4) with 6 people behind you, all of whom are very tight and will only call you with A-K, A-Q, A-A, K-K, Q-Q, and J-J. You have A-Jo. An opponent will get one of these 5.4% of time time, and (once again ignoring repeats) you will get called 28.3% of the time by an opponent. You win% against this hand range when called is 25.6%.

EV = .717(300) + .283*.256(2200) + .283*.744(-1900)
EV = -39.37, or an average loss of more than an eighth of a big blind. Here, you have a negative expected value even though each individual opponent will rarely call, and you have Ace-Face. An important note is that holding T-9s would make this move have a positive EV of almost one quarter a BB (31.73 chips)!!

It is important to apply this advice in the correct context. I have given you a few situations and shown you how to do some of the math. I realize that these calculations would be very hard to do within your allotted amount of time. But if you play around with some of the numbers, you can come up with answers to common situations. Personally, I do a quick guestimation based on what I think my opponents will call with and a quick evaluation of what I think my win% will be. As you do more of these calculations, split second guestimations can become part of your game. Until then, evaluate some situations for yourself. You may be surprised with some of the results you get.

And remember, as you push in more, people\'s hand calling ranges open up, so take that into consideration when you make your calculations.

Another important aspect of short stack play is never getting so low that it is gauranteed you will get called. Although this number can change from tournament to tournament, a good guideline is that you want to maintain at least 10xBB. This gives you enough for a sizeable allin raise, and makes it possible that a reraise allin of a 3xBB open can make your opponent fold (so that you can resteal.) I cannot stress how important it is to not fall below 8xBB, especially around the bubble. If you let yourself whittle down to 5xBB, everyone (especially the big stacks) will DEFINATELY bully you around. Your stack won\'t put a significant dent into their stacks, and it isn\'t \"that much\" for someone to call you with mediocre holdings or push on your blind. When you let yourself bleed off you really only leave yourself the chance to get lucky on a double up. It is very hard to steal with a 5xBB stack. And, around the bubble people won\'t fold to your allin steals as much because it doesn\'t bust them. When you maintain a 10xBB stack you can get respect and have the chance to accumulate chips when everyone tightens up.

It is especially important to apply this to sit\'n\'gos, where around the bubble you will be playing 4 handed. If you have a 5xBB stack, you will get bullied and the blinds will eat your stack faster. If you maintain a 10xBB stack, though, you can target those trying to squeak into the money (and you\'re not one of them... right?) and steal their blinds.

So remember, keep in mind that, as a short stack, you want to make aggressive moves that will allow you to build a healthy chip stack, and put yourself in a position to move up the payout ladder. You also want to avoid blinding off without a fight, leading to busting right after the bubble, or worse, bubbling. I am not saying to panic and to start pushing with anything. I am illustrating a way to maintain patience while accumulating chips.

jimbling

okay.. think its time to give Harrington 2 a re-read then....

luckyvegas7

what if the big stacks are bullying the table...

bohsman

luckyvegas7 wrote:

what if the big stacks are bullying the table...

Thats when you should be willing to call with A6.