Car been pulled over, position of Gardai and driver/passengers?

bitofhelpplease

Hypothetical situation.

3 people in a car, driver 17, and two passengers 17 and 18. Driving through Donnybrook with the intention of egging people coming out of Wesley.

Driving past Eddie Rockets in the direction of Leeson Street, front passenger is leaning out of the window, not necessarily dangerously, with an egg in his hand. He doesn't throw the egg and the car turns a corner. Police siren sounds and car pulls over.

2 police officers come over to car and ask passengers and driver to get out, which is complied with; then asked for names and addresses which is also complied with.

The driver has a provisional licence which is noted by one of the Gardai, and he is told that he is "not covered by insurance". as there was no fully licenced driver in the car.

Front passenger is asked "why were you hanging out of the car?", and continues "were you throwing eggs". This is confirmed by said passenger.

Cops say that that passenger can be charged under Section 6 of the Public Order Offence, as he is over 18. Note the cop did not see anything been thrown from the car.

17 year driver is told "he's in the ****". One cop asks the other "what dya think?", to which he replies "summons in the post".

Also, driver did not have regulation sized L plates.

- From the driver's point-of-view, has he committed anything illegal other than the L plates? Was there not a recent verdict in the Hight Court about a driver on a provisional licence been allowed to drive on his own? And does insurance not cover him even if he is on his own?

- The driver was told he would receive a fine and if paid, wouldn't be disqualified. How much would that be? How much trouble is he in?

- If the Gardai did not see any eggs been thrown, what position are they in? Can anyone be charged with throwing eggs if it wasn't seen by the police?

- Would they have been in a position to search the car?

I understand that any replies do not constitute legal advice and opinion is all that is requested.

Rudolph Claus

Lol

Dundalk Daily

As far as I know the driver is covered by the insurane unless the policy clearly states otherwise but it is in law re driving on a prov without a full licence driver on board. They are not within their rights to search the car unless the reason they stopped it was a section of the law that allows for the searching like drug or offences against the state etc, this is abused on a daily basis by the Gardai. I dont think they will send out a summons and if they do it would be worth going over with a magnifying glass as they are sure to mess up somewhere with this one, its far from clear cut. Best of luck.

sdanseo

bitofhelpplease wrote:

Hypothetical situation.

3 people in a car, driver 17, and two passengers 17 and 18. Driving through Donnybrook with the intention of egging people coming out of Wesley.

Driving past Eddie Rockets in the direction of Leeson Street, front passenger is leaning out of the window, not necessarily dangerously, with an egg in his hand. He doesn't throw the egg and the car turns a corner. Police siren sounds and car pulls over.

2 police officers come over to car and ask passengers and driver to get out, which is complied with; then asked for names and addresses which is also complied with.

The driver has a provisional licence which is noted by one of the Gardai, and he is told that he is "not covered by insurance". as there was no fully licenced driver in the car.

Front passenger is asked "why were you hanging out of the car?", and continues "were you throwing eggs". This is confirmed by said passenger.

Cops say that that passenger can be charged under Section 6 of the Public Order Offence, as he is over 18. Note the cop did not see anything been thrown from the car.

17 year driver is told "he's in the ****". One cop asks the other "what dya think?", to which he replies "summons in the post".

Also, driver did not have regulation sized L plates.

- From the driver's point-of-view, has he committed anything illegal other than the L plates? Was there not a recent verdict in the Hight Court about a driver on a provisional licence been allowed to drive on his own? And does insurance not cover him even if he is on his own?

- The driver was told he would receive a fine and if paid, wouldn't be disqualified. How much would that be? How much trouble is he in?

- If the Gardai did not see any eggs been thrown, what position are they in? Can anyone be charged with throwing eggs if it wasn't seen by the police?

- Would they have been in a position to search the car?

I understand that any replies do not constitute legal advice and opinion is all that is requested.

Although I very much wish you'd got the chance to egg people coming out of Wezz ...

I doubt there'll be too much trouble. Although the driver will get a fine, most probably, - something which it's advisable NOT to do on a provision, particuarly a first one.

However, in response to whether the driver was breaking the law other than the plates...yes. It is ILLEGAL to drive on a first, third or subsequent provisional licence without a fully licenced driver in the vehicle. This, although rarely enforced, is stipulated by the number '991' on the licence.

If they were to hammer you as much as they could, then 5 points for no insurance, and i dunno if the L-plates is pointable. the driver should ''hypothetically'' (me ar3e:rolleyes:) not be such a thick in future and pay the fine.

You got caught, you'll probably get away with it, dont do it again

imeddyhobbs

hate to piss on any parade but if you are the driver of a car then you should not have people hanging out of the windows,stop them from throwing eggs where possible,belt up!

Dundalk Daily

Eh I hate to piss on the last post but I think the deed is done why go playing the school teacher.

imeddyhobbs

Dundalk Daily wrote:

Eh I hate to piss on the last post but I think the deed is done why go playing the school teacher.

Hypothetical situation.

Victor

Hypothetically and factually, you were on the wrong side of the road for egging Wesley students (unless they were hanging around the petrol station posing and / or smoking*), but on the correct side of the road for egging the Garda station.


* Do not try this at home or anywhere else near petrol vapours.

stepbar

I wonder was Mummy and Daddy notified??

Pines

bitofhelpplease wrote:

- From the driver's point-of-view, has he committed anything illegal other than the L plates?

Well... yeah, forgetting about insurance it is illegal to drive without a fully licecnsed driver when on a first provisional. On the insurance side, the Gardai don't know the term and conditions of your policy so it's unlikely that you'll be done for no insurance. Were you asked to produce insurance or go to a station with it? If not, I think you can forget that part.

bitofhelpplease wrote:

- The driver was told he would receive a fine and if paid, wouldn't be disqualified. How much would that be? How much trouble is he in?

First you won't be disqualified. Second, I think they were trying to get you to cop on a bit and stop Bam Margera and Johnny Knoxville from throwing eggs. Third, you're looking at one penalty point (or three if challenged)... see bottom of this page http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/gen142002a.html

bitofhelpplease wrote:

- If the Gardai did not see any eggs been thrown, what position are they in? Can anyone be charged with throwing eggs if it wasn't seen by the police?

He was referring to this section:
6.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to use or engage in any threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or being reckless as to whether a breach of the peace may be occasioned.

(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or to both.

So I'd say you could be convicted for threatening to throw eggs, but it sounds like they let Party Boy off with a warning this time.

bitofhelpplease wrote:

- Would they have been in a position to search the car?

Dunno, would like to hear the answer. Out of interest, what was in the car?:p

Victor

Pines wrote:

Dunno, would like to hear the answer. Out of interest, what was in the car?:p

6 dozen size 1s

Pines

Victor wrote:

6 dozen size 1s

dermot_sheehan

bitofhelpplease wrote:

Also, driver did not have regulation sized L plates.

- From the driver's point-of-view, has he committed anything illegal other than the L plates? Was there not a recent verdict in the Hight Court about a driver on a provisional licence been allowed to drive on his own? And does insurance not cover him even if he is on his own?

- The driver was told he would receive a fine and if paid, wouldn't be disqualified. How much would that be? How much trouble is he in?

- If the Gardai did not see any eggs been thrown, what position are they in? Can anyone be charged with throwing eggs if it wasn't seen by the police?

- Would they have been in a position to search the car?

I understand that any replies do not constitute legal advice and opinion is all that is requested.

The driver was driving without a valid driving licence since he was not complying with the fundamental terms of that licence, see regulation 20(6)(b) of the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 1999:

Subject to paragraph (c) of this sub-article, a provisional licence shall, on coming into effect, licence the holder to drive a vehicle of any category for which the licence is granted on any occasion during the period specified in the licence provided that the following conditions are complied with—

(iii) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1, or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless there are displayed on the vehicle rectangular plates or signs bearing the letter "L" not less than fifteen centimetres high in red on a white ground, in clearly visible vertical positions to the front and rear of the vehicle,

(iv) a person provisionally licensed to drive vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1 or ED shall not drive such a vehicle unless he or she is accompanied by and is under the supervision of a qualified person,

An offence under section 38 of the Road Traffic Act has therefore been committed http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA24Y1961S38.html.
This section has been amended by section 12 of the Road Traffic Act 2006 http://www.oir.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2006/a2306.pdf the penalty being a €2,500 fine if taken to court and/or 6 months imprisonment. It coudl also be dealt with as a section 102 offence instead which carries 5 points and €2,500 fine if taken to court or 2 points and a (I believe its currently set at €80 fine) if dealt with by fixed penalty notice http://acts.oireachtas.ie/print/en.act.2002.0012.1.html#sec25

The passenger is most likely guilty of an offence under section of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA2Y1994S6.html €635 fine and up to 3 months in prison.


These penalties are the maximum set by law, in practice for a first time offence, you are unlikely to get anything nearly as severe.

The driver will probably get a fixed penalty charge with 2 points. The passenger could get summons, have to appear before a judge, and probably pay a fine.


The gardai do not need to see the eggs to be thrown for a section 6 offence since it punishes insulting behaviour. If the eggs were thrown they could charge with assault and/or criminal damage. They do not need to see the offence taking place (how many crimes are prosecuted where the crime took place in front of a police officer), they just need to be able to satisfy a district judge (who tries minor offences) that the accused committed the offence beyond a reasonable doubt.

They need to exercise a specific statutory power to search the vehicle. The most obvious one would be the powers of search granted by the misuse of drugs act.

Turner

The DPP has directed Gardai to summons people driving unaccompanied or without L plates for the offence of having "No Licence".

So depending on your policy you may or may not be covered by insurance. Some policies state that you are covered if you ever did hold a licence.

bitofhelpplease

Would a fine result in a criminal record?

The whole "if you have a criminal record, you can't go to the States/Aus", thing, would that apply in this case?

This is all hypothetical of course.

Little-Devil

bitofhelpplease wrote:

The driver has a provisional licence which is noted by one of the Gardai, and he is told that he is "not covered by insurance". as there was no fully licenced driver in the car.

If provisional drivers are not covered by there insurance, then why do insurance companies continue to insure provisional drivers? I would expect that the insurance company should get some sort of fine if the driver is pulled over by the garda and told he is not covered to drive?

Maybe I am not fully aware of the law. It would stop all the boy racers etc if the law was actually enforced you would think?

bitofhelpplease

Well you're definately covered if you're with a fully licenced driver. It's without a licnced driver, which in this hypothetical situation, the passengers are unsure.

There was a case in the High Court which allowed provisional drivers to drive unaccompanied due to a loophole at the time, but I don't know if new legislation was brought in which fixed this.

monkey tennis

bitofhelpplease wrote:

- If the Gardai did not see any eggs been thrown, what position are they in? Can anyone be charged with throwing eggs if it wasn't seen by the police?

I'd imagine that the question of them seeing eggs being thrown or not is made moot by the below:

bitofhelpplease wrote:

and continues "were you throwing eggs". This is confirmed by said passenger.

mcguiver

Summons for
1 driving without qualified driver
2 driving without due care and attention for other road users, i.e. the
pedestrians being egged.
3 Failure to display proper L plates
4 Section 2 assault for egg thrower + thats without getting into littering
legislation


"Hypothetically" take any gob****e who'd drive someone egging others, off Irish roads.

faceman

If driving unaccompanied and the driver caused an accident and was at fault then his insurance company would have to pay out under EU law.

If the driver however made a claim on his own insurance im not sure if he's covered.

Hypothetically speaking the driver and his passengers are spanners. but unfortunately there is no law covering that... hypothetically.

bitofhelpplease

Also, surely if the Garda felt the driver wasn't covered by insurance, he wouldn't of asked him to get back in his car and leave the area?

seamus

Especially for young fellas messing around, the Gardai will say a whole pile of things to scare the ****e out of you. If they actually wanted to do the guy for no insurance, they wouldn't have let him drive off.

Driving with a passenger hanging out of the window could be charged as careless or dangerous driving. Driving with an unbelted passenger (if the guy was hanging out the window, I don't see how he could have his belt on) is also an offence.

It's very likely that the driver will receive a fixed penalty notice and points on his licence. The passenger may very well receive a court summons for breach of the peace, or another catch-all offence (he admitted to the offence at the scene).

I'm unsure as to whether they could have searched the vehicle based on your actions, but under anti-drug legislation they very well could have.

bitofhelpplease

And if that were to happen, would the passenger receive a criminal record?

faceman

bitofhelpplease wrote:

And if that were to happen, would the passenger receive a criminal record?

for a public order offence, yes if the judge finds them guilty. And believe goin to court for public order offence is one of the most humilitating things to do, sittin in between cream crackers n all.

however the judge will probably (which i disagree with) offer the offender a choice. Pay the max fine (about €100) and its goes on his record or the offender pays anything between €500-€1000 to a charity of the court's chosing, and it doesnt go in his record.

sh_o

faceman wrote:

And believe goin to court for public order offence is one of the most humilitating things to do, sittin in between cream crackers n all.

You mean sitting with other fellow criminals!

If you do get summond to court and it is your First offence, then there is a chance that you may get the benefit of the probation act which means that you would not have an offence recorded on your record an only pay a fine.

However, certain judges will make an example of that kind of behaviour. If the matter does end before a court, you should make sure you are represented and have your family there with you for support!

WizZard

I hope you're made an example of in this hypothetical situation.
I'm speaking as someone who has had to clean up (cars/windows) after the extemely bad aim of idiots such as those in the OPs hypothetical situation.

bitofhelpplease

Would the accused not have to confess in court that eggs were thrown? Is it not inadmissable evidence otherwise? I realise this is not a murder case but do the same principals not apply?

Edit: Also, how long would it take for the summons to arrive?

dermot_sheehan

bitofhelpplease wrote:

Would the accused not have to confess in court that eggs were thrown? Is it not inadmissable evidence otherwise? I realise this is not a murder case but do the same principals not apply?

Edit: Also, how long would it take for the summons to arrive?

How many times does an accused confess in open court for any crime? Though an out of court statement is normally inadmissable as hearsay, there are many exceptions to the hearsay rule, one of these is confessions There is a requirement imposed by the 1993 Criminal Procedure act that confessions be corroborated (i.e. independent evidence tending to confirm the confession adduced), however this only applies to trials on indictment (serious offences where a prison sentence of more then a year can be imposed and are tried by a jury, certainly not this case), in any case the possession of the eggs would constitute corroborating evidence as would an admission by the co-accused.

According to the Petty Sessions (ireland) Act, summonses must be issued within 6 months of the offence.

faceman

Oh and if the OP hypothetical situation does make it to court, dont call the judge "your honour"!!!

He/she is just called "judge" in ireland. "Your honour" is LOL material in court!

bitofhelpplease

Point noted.

Also, although it was a confirmed eggs were thrown, it was never said they were directly at people.

Could it be argued that they were thrown for no particular reason and that no-one was purposely "targetted"? I mean, if you were driving in the country and threw an egg into a field, it'd hardly mean anything?

Poor example to use as principle but you understand. And the fact the summons must be issued within 6 months, is it likely the wait would be that long or would it be quite quickly?

I noticed a jockey was let off with a fine and "helping the community" using the Probation Act, surely it would be unfair to receive a criminal record for this?

Would any sort of criminal record effectively remove any possibility of going to the States or Australia?

Thanks for helping me with my "research" so far..

digweed

bitofhelpplease wrote:

Point noted.

Also, although it was a confirmed eggs were thrown, it was never said they were directly at people.

Could it be argued that they were thrown for no particular reason and that no-one was purposely "targetted"? I mean, if you were driving in the country and threw an egg into a field, it'd hardly mean anything?

This could then be called "reckless endangerment". possibly a bit severe, but just remeber that and egg thrown from a moving car will be travelling at the same speed as the car and however hard it was thrown. there was an incident in the uk a few years abck where an egg was thrown from a tube train and hit a woman on the platform in the forehead fracturing her skull.

section 13, non-fatal offences against the person act, 1997.



13.—(1) A person shall be guilty of an offence who intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of death or serious harm to another.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—

( a ) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to both, or

( b ) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years or to both.


also in the case of the prov. licence, if you are driving without a qualified driver in the car on any prov. bar your second then you are invalidating the conditions of your licence, this means that you have no licence. this was brought in because even though there was an offence for driving unaccompained, there was no actual penalty. regarding the insurance side of this the way insurance co's look at it is that the driving is covered and not the driver, i.e. if you crash into another while unaccompanied then the co. will cover the other car and you can take a hike.

summonses have to be issued by the court within 6 months from the date of the offence, in dublin there is almost a year between the date of the offence and the court date. once issued from the court office they only have to be served 7 clear days before the court date.

possible outcomes: day out in court for the driver, first offence probation act and fine. all depends on the judge on the day.

(just my opinion)

HTH
D.

cast_iron

bitofhelpplease wrote:

Also, although it was a confirmed eggs were thrown, it was never said they were directly at people.

Could it be argued that they were thrown for no particular reason and that no-one was purposely "targetted"? I mean, if you were driving in the country and threw an egg into a field, it'd hardly mean anything?

Letss get real here. If this person is brought to court, he should just plead guilty and accept what he deserves. The judge isn't stupid, and he/she will see exactly what went on, given the Garda evidence.

What's more, if this person denies all, and the judge doesn't believe him, any notion of a lenient sentence will be out the window.

The fact he comited the act shows one degree of stupidity, the fact that he is considering trying to deny all in court shows another dimension of idioticness altogether.

bitofhelpplease wrote:

And the fact the summons must be issued within 6 months, is it likely the wait would be that long or would it be quite quickly?

Well i know of a case where it was 6 months minus 1 day. Killer!

bitofhelpplease wrote:

Would any sort of criminal record effectively remove any possibility of going to the States or Australia?

Only if it's declared to customs, which of course you should...

digweed

cast_iron wrote:

Well i know of a case where it was 6 months minus 1 day. Killer!

thats the exact limit. for want of a better explanation the summons has to be issued the day before the 6 month 'anniversary' of the offence.

D.

cast_iron

digweed wrote:

thats the exact limit. for want of a better explanation the summons has to be issued the day before the 6 month 'anniversary' of the offence.

D.

I feel so much better now:D (for that person):D

xha1r

cast_iron wrote:

Only if it's declared to customs, which of course you should...

Customs? You mean Immigration? Or am I wrong?

cast_iron

xha1r wrote:

Customs? You mean Immigration? Or am I wrong?

Yes, my mistake. Immigration it is.

bitofhelpplease

Got the summons today.

On the 14-Oct-2006 at DONNYBROOK ROAD DUBLIN 4 a public place, in the Dublin Metropolitan District, dud use or engage in threatening, abusive or insulting words or behavior with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or being reckless as to whether a breach of the peace might have been occassioned.
Contrary to section 6 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994.

Now, the dates:

Summons Date: 21 Nov 2006.
Date of Offence: 14 October 2006.
Date of Application by Gardai for issue of summons: 27 October 2006.

For which does the "must be issued within 6 months thing" apply?

Any idea on what to expect from the note if court is required?

dermot_sheehan

bitofhelpplease wrote:

Got the summons today.



Now, the dates:

Summons Date: 21 Nov 2006.
Date of Offence: 14 October 2006.
Date of Application by Gardai for issue of summons: 27 October 2006.

For which does the "must be issued within 6 months thing" apply?

Any idea on what to expect from the note if court is required?

The date the complaint was made to court, i.e. 27 Oct, well within the 6 months period.

Court is required, that is the purpose of the summons, to order you to attend court on a certain date if you fail to attend you'll be convicted in your absence.

gonk

faceman wrote:

If driving unaccompanied and the driver caused an accident and was at fault then his insurance company would have to pay out under EU law.

If the driver however made a claim on his own insurance im not sure if he's covered.

What EU law? Just curious . . . .

dermot_sheehan

The Motor Insurance Directives:
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/insurance/motor_en.htm#directives

They set down criteria requiring the states to have mandatory road traffic insurance, setting the minimum requirements of such insurance policies, and the compensation for those injured by uninsured motorists.

Jo King

For a person driving unaccompanied on a provisional licence the proper charge is driving without a licence. Some judges don't know that and strike out the charge when the provisional licence is shown in court.
There are a number of EU directives on Motor Insurance. They can be found on the Dept. of Transport website. The relevant ones are implemented in Irish law by way of the MIBI agreement of 2004. Effectively third party cover cannot be dependent on the driver having a licence. Since all that is required on the road is third party cover there is no insurance offence committed by an unlicensed driver. There may be difficulties with the insurance company in civil law since the company can sue for breach of contract.