PLO aggression

Bandana boy

So 6 max 1-2 PLO
I have been playing few hands but playing them very aggressive
Table is full of short stack donks and 1 player with a stack

hero 400
Villain covers
I have not played or seen a hand from villain yet
I have been ultra aggressive with any hand i want to play

Hand KQJ9 ds spades and diamonds

A serial raiser raises from CO I make it 14 to play on button Villain in ep and original raiser play
Pot 50
Flop 347 rainbow
Checked to me and I Bet 30 Villain calls dude folds

Pot 110
Turn
8s giving me Q high fd
Checked to me and I bet 90
Villain calls

Pot 290
River As and villain opens for pot bet 260ish for me to call

????

Lafortezza

Runner runner second nut flush? Call I think, just unlucky if he runnered the nuts. He could easily be betting *any* flush since it came runner runner, small chance he might be betting the bare Ks as a bluff, and a chance that he has the straight, and figures you don't have the flush.

Edit: just noticed stacks, if you're going to call you may as well push for the last remaining few dollars.


Edit2: You should definitely check behind on the turn, since you can't stand a check-raise with just the flush draw. Betting the flop is fine imo, I'd probably raise bigger preflop, having double suited connectors is a monster short handed.

Gholimoli

i think your play in the hand is really awful but i dont know much about Omaha.
as played i think you should call.

El Stuntman

Gholimoli wrote:

i think your play in the hand is really awful but i dont know much about Omaha.

lol

"I don't know much about pre-Raphaelite art but this painting really sucks"

ianmc38

I think you played this hand pretty badly.

Dont minraise preflop.

Check the turn as Lefortezza said you can't call a checkraise, so take your free card.

River is an instacall.

Gholimoli

El Stuntman wrote:

Gholimoli wrote:

i think your play in the hand is really awful but i dont know much about Omaha.

lol

"I don't know much about pre-Raphaelite art but this painting really sucks"

well the way i look at it is like this:
villain limps ,
dude raises,
hero reraises,
villain calls.

villain checks,hero bets pot on totally missed flop and villain calls.
turn gives hero some hope with some outs and when he is presented with a free chance of seeing the river ,he actually pots it again!
this to me is horrible and i dont think it makes much difference what the game is as its a conceptual error.
but then again as i said i dont know much about Omaha so i could be wrong.

Lafortezza

Only making a small (even a min) raise preflop is not a huge mistake since preflop hand strengths in Omaha are all pretty close. A full pot raise would work to likely get the hand heads-up with either Villain, a small raise creates a juiced pot, 3-way, with Hero in position with a very nice hand.

Potting the flop is standard because Villain has called 2 raises preflop so he is likely to have a 'good' coordinated hand. Most of these hands will have missed the flop except low wraps.

If Villain does have a low wrap hand then we have to check behind on the turn when we pick up the outs with the flush draw. If we didn't pick up the flush draw on the turn then I would be happier betting the turn as a bluff, since it's easy to fold if raised.
If we have nothing and no draw on the turn then checking behind on the turn is basically giving up on the whole hand.

Calling the river is standard, raising for whatever we have left is better since Villain must call with any flush since he's getting massive pot odds. If he has the nut flush then meh.

5starpool

I am not a huge fan of the play either to be honest, but as played get your money in there. Whatever about the turn (gutshot and flush draw) I usually check behind from the button with this hand on that board, but then again I am not a hyper aggressive player.

Edit to say that I am probably underestimating myself there. 9/10 I would bet that flop if checked to me in a raised pot. CHecking there and betting the turn with outs would have been an alternative that I do sometimes though.

ianmc38

Yeah instacall river = instapush.

Betting flop is fine, but once he calls, taking the free card on the turn is much better imho.

cardshark202

Preflop I would prefer you to raise a little more. Betting the flop is fine. As has been said, checking behind on the turn is much better because you have to wonder what would he call the flop with here that will fold the turn? Two pair is all that will fold, a set probably wont.

Flipper

Ok, I like your raise pre-flop raise (with nice cards) but your continuation bet is kinda throwing money away. On a board of 347, there are LOADS of hands that can call/raise you here. My guess is that he has something like 25xx or A25x. The latter gives him a 13 outs and 16 if his Ace is good (if you raised with KK or QQ). Also, the fact you got two callers means it's most likely someone was playing with those type of cards. All in all, that bet isn't awful.

On the turn, the 8 really doesn't change anything (except putting the backdoor flush out there) because if he flat called with the nuts, he's only improved his straight. You'd be right to think at this point that you had 11 clean outs (7 spades (that don't pair the board) and 4 Tens) making you about 4/1 to win the hand. I'd check here and give him the option to bet at the river if it comes a blank (then he might have had the nut straight all along) giving you the option to fold if you don't hit one of your outs and you'll have lost the minimum.

When the spades come, I'd probably go broke here. I normally wouldn't get it all in without the nut flush but it's so unlikely that he has it, that I'd take a chance.

Biggest mistake: Betting the turn made the pot too big for your modest holdings. You're lucky to catch the spades... Or were you?

cardshark202

Flipper wrote:

Ok, I like your raise pre-flop raise (with nice cards) but your continuation bet is kinda throwing money away. On a board of 347, there are LOADS of hands that can call/raise you here. My guess is that he has something like 25xx or A25x. The latter gives him a 13 outs and 16 if his Ace is good (if you raised with KK or QQ). Also, the fact you got two callers means it's most likely someone was playing with those type of cards. All in all, that bet isn't awful.

On the turn, the 8 really doesn't change anything (except putting the backdoor flush out there) because if he flat called with the nuts, he's only improved his straight. You'd be right to think at this point that you had 13 clean outs (9 spades and 4 Tens) making you about 7/2 to win the hand. I'd check here and give him the option to bet at the river if it comes a blank (then he might have had the nut straight all along) giving you the option to fold if you don't hit one of your outs and you'll have lost the minimum.

When the spades come, I'd probably go broke here. I normally wouldn't get it all in without the nut flush but it's so unlikely that he has it, that I'd take a chance.

Biggest mistake: Betting the turn made the pot too big for your modest holdings. You're lucky to catch the spades... Or were you?

I certainly don't agree that someone is going to call with the idiot end of a straight draw/wrap on a 347 board where 56 is the nuts. Not a chance. And there is also no way someone is going to call with an ace putting you on KKxx or QQxx thats madness.

Flipper

He might purely because Bandana boy has Re-raised pre-flop. This typically means a big pair. Not always, but it's the first thought anyway. Obviously, he's more likely to have a set or two pair but the flat call is indicitive of either the nuts (56xx) or a straight draw. A set would most likely raise due to the re-raise pre-flop.

cardshark202

Flipper wrote:

He might purely because Bandana boy has Re-raised pre-flop. This typically means a big pair. Not always, but it's the first thought anyway. Obviously, he's more likely to have a set or two pair but the flat call is indicitive of either the nuts (56xx) or a straight draw. A set would most likely raise due to the re-raise pre-flop.

i'd be more likely to call with 789T here than i would with A25x

Flipper

calling here with 789T is awful play. More so when you have a player to act behind you.

cardshark202

Flipper wrote:

calling here with 789T is awful play. More so when you have a player to act behind you.

Thats my point

careca

I would call here also, but would not be a bit surprised to the see the nut flush. KK33, KK44 or KK77 (with Ks and either 347s) would probably play the pot along similar lines. Call the flop bet because hes afraid of the str8, similar on the turn and hit the nuts on the river. If so unlucky.

Lafortezza

Flipper wrote:

Ok, I like your raise pre-flop raise (with nice cards) but your continuation bet is kinda throwing money away. On a board of 347, there are LOADS of hands that can call/raise you here. My guess is that he has something like 25xx or A25x. The latter gives him a 13 outs and 16 if his Ace is good (if you raised with KK or QQ).

I think betting the flop (even when you have nothing!) is way better than checking behind. Thats a very raggy flop for a raised pot.

Obviously it's a continuation bet, but Villain still needs a decent hand to call. Unless Villain has a low wrappy-type hand or a big pair-type hand he can't call the C-bet.
If Hero checks behind on the flop and the turn is a blank (which most of the deck is for Hero's hand), any bet by Villain makes Hero fold. So I think C-betting is the way to go.

Only if Villain has hit that flop do we get action, we don't need to have hit it to take down the pot with a C-bet.

Bandana boy

pre flop I want to play for a bit more than the 6 it was raised to all ready without going crazy 14 is probably fine here with stack size of the shortish players

On the flop i think cont bet is standard enough only 2 players 1 of which is playing for his stack if he gets involved high likelyhood that this will get through

Turn was interesting
I would normally check here especially considering villains stack size but
I felt he was calling more to make a move on me than a particularily strong hand as in PLO 1-2 on tribeca sets and straights (and often wraps)never slow play
8s is a brick a pretty brick for me but i couldnt see how a hand that couldnt raise me on the flop was improved here with this 8
I was fully expecting to take it down there and then

River boom this is unexpected
In PLO 1-2 this is 90% a flush in my opinion and the other 10% it is nut flush blocker
so does he do this with j high or worse flush

I made the crying call and he had AKQJ nut spades which i was incredulous was still around on that flop

5starpool

ouch

cardshark202

Bandana boy wrote:

pre flop I want to play for a bit more than the 6 it was raised to all ready without going crazy 14 is probably fine here with stack size of the shortish players

On the flop i think cont bet is standard enough only 2 players 1 of which is playing for his stack if he gets involved high likelyhood that this will get through

Turn was interesting
I would normally check here especially considering villains stack size but
I felt he was calling more to make a move on me than a particularily strong hand as in PLO 1-2 on tribeca sets and straights (and often wraps)never slow play
8s is a brick a pretty brick for me but i couldnt see how a hand that couldnt raise me on the flop was improved here with this 8
I was fully expecting to take it down there and then

River boom this is unexpected
In PLO 1-2 this is 90% a flush in my opinion and the other 10% it is nut flush blocker
so does he do this with j high or worse flush

I made the crying call and he had AKQJ nut spades which i was incredulous was still around on that flop

He must have had some read...

fuzzbox

he has the nuts like 95% of the time.

I check the turn though.

Hectorjelly

I was going to make a new thread on this, maybe I will. Does any long term omaha winner keep good records? What type of ptBB/100 could agood player expect. Is it higher or lower than hold em?

Lafortezza

Hectorjelly wrote:

I was going to make a new thread on this, maybe I will. Does any long term omaha winner keep good records? What type of ptBB/100 could agood player expect. Is it higher or lower than hold em?

A higher winrate compared to a similar level in hold'em is possible but you need to play good, be picky about tables and have a LAG style.
The long term is longer because there's more variance in PLO, the swings are bigger. A LAG style makes this worse.

I had a quick search of 2+2 but there's not much there about winrates, probably because it's very dependant on the level you play, how good you are and stuff.
I think I have some links saved at home so I'll post later if I can find them.
one link