Its final ,I want to learn Omaha...

Gholimoli

Ok folks,
Ive been thinking about picking up Omaha for a while and have just really been too lazy to do it and spending my time on holdem.
Since im on a break from online holdem at the moment ive decided now its time to start learning Omaha.
Now I have maybe only played a few hundred hands (prob less than 1K) in Omaha ever so my level is very very basic.
I would like to start reading about it first before playing it and I was just looking at Amazon to order a few books but I thought I ask here first.
How should I start this?
What books should I get first?
What are good sources of information on it?
Any other tips that you think may help is much appreciated.

5starpool

Dive in at the deep end. Learn how not to play properly, and play in the Fitz. Let me know when you will be there

I'm glad you are at least looking at the light, if not seeing it. Omaha is a great game.

Gholimoli

5starpool wrote:

Dive in at the deep end. Learn how not to play properly, and play in the Fitz. Let me know when you will be there

I'm glad you are at least looking at the light, if not seeing it. Omaha is a great game.

I disagree this is bad advice.
Your thinking is flawed and your logic is crap .

5starpool

Gholimoli wrote:

I disagree this is bad advice.
Your thinking is flawed and your logic is crap .

Must be why the cash games in the Fitz feel like home then

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

Ok folks,
Ive been thinking about picking up Omaha for a while and have just really been too lazy to do it and spending my time on holdem.
Since im on a break from online holdem at the moment ive decided now its time to start learning Omaha.
Now I have maybe only played a few hundred hands (prob less than 1K) in Omaha ever so my level is very very basic.
I would like to start reading about it first before playing it and I was just looking at Amazon to order a few books but I thought I ask here first.
How should I start this?
What books should I get first?
What are good sources of information on it?
Any other tips that you think may help is much appreciated.

Play with Halibut heads up for bankrolls. Should break you in easy.

Either that or join the all-in blind game on Tribeca every night. It'll give you an idea of the variance encountered in the game.

Daithio

I'd agree with Dom Gholi. I'm still learning but it's very beatable even if you have a basic knowledge of the game simply because of the amount of absolute fish playing it. Game selection is HUGE, I'm playing 2-4, 3-6 and sometimes 5-10 online now when I spot a couple of muppets, but I started getting into it in the live cash games. Basically have a look at what everybody is doing in them and do the opposite. There might be one or two good players at the table and have a look at the hands they are playing, what they are not playing, how they are playing them etc. If you do get into a game with Dom copy him. You shouldn't lose too much in these games if you just play tight, in fact you should win the standard is so poor.

Starting hand selection is the big thing, and it's where you should start. This is where people mess up the most coming from hold em IMO, and is the main reason there is so much value in the game. All the way up the levels online right to the top you see people making huge mistakes preflop calling big raises with absolute junk. You should be looking to play around the same amount of hands as you would in a hold em game, perhaps even less. Most people see any omaha hand and think 'ah sure I could hit the nuts with the right flop', or they see 2356 or some crap and immediately put the original raiser on AA, calling off alot of chips preflop hoping to crack them.

Position is also HUGE, probably more so at the slightly higher stakes where people will put down a hand, but IMO there is NO hand that I will reraise OOP unless there is a fair chance I can get it HU and get most of either my stack or the other guy's stack in preflop, and I'd only do this with a decent AA. I see people reraising from say the SB with bad aces, kings, even queens all the time, and then betting out at any flop OOP, where there is a huge chance somebody has connected with it. Bad players lose a fortune with big pairs in omaha. In this situation I'd just call and hope to flop a concealed high set, giving up on it most of the time if I miss. Alot of people do their tanks rerasing OOP with big pairs, mainly players converting from hold em. Big pairs aren't nearly as valuable in omaha as in hold em.

Another point that can't be stressed enough, which may seem to contradict what I said previously, is that a hand in omaha only really begins when the flop is dealt. This is why reraising OOP is such a bad idea, even with monster starting hands. A big problem alot of hold em players have is that they find it very difficult to give up their strong starting hand when they don't connect with the flop. This doesn't mean you should start playing more hands preflop because you can always hit a strong hand, you still want to keep a preflop edge, but you just have to be willing to give up strong starting hands that don't connect.

For the mean time though you should have a google online for a guide to good starting omaha hands, head into the fitz and sit down with €100, only playing these good hands. Don't by any means get caught up in the whole gambling element of the game, calling for 'value' and all that crap. Just ignore what most of the others are doing at the table, play a tight solid game, you should turn a small profit and you'll gradually figure out the game.

Gholimoli

Daithio wrote:

I'd agree with Dom Gholi. I'm still learning but it's very beatable even if you have a basic knowledge of the game simply because of the amount of absolute fish playing it. Game selection is HUGE, I'm playing 2-4, 3-6 and sometimes 5-10 online now when I spot a couple of muppets, but I started getting into it in the live cash games. Basically have a look at what everybody is doing in them and do the opposite. There might be one or two good players at the table and have a look at the hands they are playing, what they are not playing, how they are playing them etc. If you do get into a game with Dom copy him. You shouldn't lose too much in these games if you just play tight, in fact you should win the standard is so poor.

Starting hand selection is the big thing, and it's where you should start. This is where people mess up the most coming from hold em IMO, and is the main reason there is so much value in the game. All the way up the levels online right to the top you see people making huge mistakes preflop calling big raises with absolute junk. You should be looking to play around the same amount of hands as you would in a hold em game, perhaps even less. Most people see any omaha hand and think 'ah sure I could hit the nuts with the right flop', or they see 2356 or some crap and immediately put the original raiser on AA, calling off alot of chips preflop hoping to crack them.

Position is also HUGE, probably more so at the slightly higher stakes where people will put down a hand, but IMO there is NO hand that I will reraise OOP unless there is a fair chance I can get it HU and get most of either my stack or the other guy's stack in preflop, and I'd only do this with a decent AA. I see people reraising from say the SB with bad aces, kings, even queens all the time, and then betting out at any flop OOP, where there is a huge chance somebody has connected with it. Bad players lose a fortune with big pairs in omaha. In this situation I'd just call and hope to flop a concealed high set, giving up on it most of the time if I miss. Alot of people do their tanks rerasing OOP with big pairs, mainly players converting from hold em. Big pairs aren't nearly as valuable in omaha as in hold em.

Another point that can't be stressed enough, which may seem to contradict what I said previously, is that a hand in omaha only really begins when the flop is dealt. This is why reraising OOP is such a bad idea, even with monster starting hands. A big problem alot of hold em players have is that they find it very difficult to give up their strong starting hand when they don't connect with the flop. This doesn't mean you should start playing more hands preflop because you can always hit a strong hand, you still want to keep a preflop edge, but you just have to be willing to give up strong starting hands that don't connect.

For the mean time though you should have a google online for a guide to good starting omaha hands, head into the fitz and sit down with €100, only playing these good hands. Don't by any means get caught up in the whole gambling element of the game, calling for 'value' and all that crap. Just ignore what most of the others are doing at the table, play a tight solid game, you should turn a small profit and you'll gradually figure out the game.

cheers Dave.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ianmc38

I play way more hands in Omaha than I do in holdem.

Dont overplay AA. Most players up to 2-4 raise nothing but AAxx/KKxx style hands. Make sure you mix it up. 4 connectors or 3 connectors with a pair, double suited connectors, 4 broadways are all good raising hands eg 89TJ, TJQQ, JQKA

As Dave said, dont reraise out of position. The only time you want to be reraising with say AAxx from the SB is when you can get a large % of your stack in preflop.

Be extremely careful with bottom and even middle set. The hands I've lost the most money on are sets.

Beware of getting freerolled with the nut straight.

Make far fewer continuation bets.

Some people hate the Omaha section in SS2 . I think it's an excellent starting point for beginners and would recommend you read it. I can loan you my copy this weekend if you want to borrow it.

Stay away from tribeca. All the players there are really good so you should definitely avoid any Omaha games there, especially 1-2 up to 5-10

Gholimoli

thanks Ian.
if if you dont mind bring your book along so i have a look.

5starpool

Omaha is far more of a maths game than holdem as the big hands that develop are regularly made hands against draws, or the same hands with redraws etc. What you want to do online especially is have a very tight range (although I am guilty of opening it up a tad too much at times) as Dave says.

Play big pairs, but not overaggressively preflop unless you can get it all in pretty much head to head with AA.
Play connecting cards especially if suited. 8h9cThJc is a lovely hand to see. If they are gapped too much, or there is one dangler then let it go.
Pinpoint the players who are obviously holdem players and never, ever bluff against them (bad idea in general unless you know the lone A move for example has a chance of working).
Raising preflop is not as important in Omaha as usually this will only swell the pot making something like middle set much harder to play. Don't raise OOP unless it is for a good reason.

As Dave says, there are a lot of poor Omaha players out there, both online and live. It is both really enjoyable and really frustrating at the same time.

Get ready to shout 'Pair (or Don't Pair) the board' regularly.

Gholimoli

where can i learn the most common odds.
for example in holdem the most common drawing hands are str or flush and you know what the odds for them are.
also hand equity .
for example how a certain hand rates against a certain draw ?
what is the strongest draw?

what is the best starting hand (i would imagine AAKKss) .

what is a good Omaha calculator(like poker stove for Holdem).

5starpool

Gholimoli wrote:

where can i learn the most common odds.
for example in holdem the most common drawing hands are str or flush and you know what the odds for them are.
also hand equity .
for example how a certain hand rates against a certain draw ?
what is the strongest draw?

what is the best starting hand (i would imagine AAKKss) .

what is a good Omaha calculator(like poker stove for Holdem).

Dunno. I am self edumacated, which helps you pick up loads of bad habits along the way.

The best starting hand is AAJTds. I had it last night for the first time, and I was sitting in the 100 game in the Fitz, and managed to get my stack (only 320 due to a lost pot about 2 hands earlier) in 4 handed preflop. Missed the flop, hit runner runner straight for the nuts

AAKKds is probably not far behind it to be honest, but there are less straights to be made, also if you make a flush, you have to rely on someone paying you off with the Q high.

Another important thing is that if you flop the nuts out of position with no redraw it can be a dangerous thing, so be cautious about how you play it.

5starpool

Also, it is quite common to have top set vs a flush draw and a wrap. e.g:
QcQs8c6h vs AhKsJh9s on a QhTc2h board. Technically the QQ is ahead, but a 9,J,K,A or heart would give hand 2 a better hand (18 outs I believe) so they are slight favourite, and if they hit on the turn will be a 4-1 fav going to the river.

The odds are of course the same as in holdem, and you cannot credit someone to have that many outs against your top set during a hand, but that is why I have heard it called the Nuts game a lot. you have to be nuts to play it, and have the nuts to win it.

In a lot of situations though it will be top 2 pair vs bottom set, esp if there is an A on board and no raise preflop. If scare cards don't come then I would generally push my bottom set in this situation, but most of the time bottom set is asking for trouble.

I think the default setting you should adapt (as with Holdem too I guess) is that until you are familiar with the type of hands that you play with, the type of hands that win, and a feel for the texture of an Omaha flop, be cautious. Not as cautious as Olly last week though of course

ollyk1

5starpool wrote:

Not as cautious as Olly last week though of course

I'm taking this kind of trash talk from the guy who went broke playing omaha against 4 fish!! lol

Plus my ROI from ONE round of omaha was 32% so I'll take that every night of the week if it means playing like that. Put it another way my hourly rate was a tasty €150 per hour in a game with €1 €1 blinds!!!


Bottom line is I played infinitely looser in the omaha round then the holdem round!!! (I didn't play one hand of holdem voluntarily)

Meh I'm a rock....

Flipper

Gholimoli wrote:

where can i learn the most common odds.
for example in holdem the most common drawing hands are str or flush and you know what the odds for them are.
also hand equity .
for example how a certain hand rates against a certain draw ?
what is the strongest draw?

what is the best starting hand (i would imagine AAKKss) .

what is a good Omaha calculator(like poker stove for Holdem).

Hey Gholi,

We actually spoke about this in Dundalk a few weeks back and as me and Daithio agreed, there are no good books. The only enjoyable one I've read is Stuwart Reuben's "how good is your pot-limit omaha". It goes through hands Reuben has played himself and allows you to decide what way you'd have played. He's full of sh*t half the time but definatly worth buying.

I wouldn't get too tied up in starting criteria. I myself play 65%-70% of hands in 6 or less handed tables. This is fairly loose play but what you have to remember is that Omaha is a flop hitting game. WHen you're starting off, I'd play only made hands (with a view to improvment) of nut draws until you get a better feel for the game.

Strongest draw: this would have to be either a 20-card wrap (holding 4589 on a board of 67x) or of course, the holy grail of omaha, the top set and nut flush draw.

AAKKds, AAKQds, AAJT are all monsters but my favourite is 89TJds as it's more deceptive (when you re-raise) and easier to get away from. Generally, when you see a re-raise, it's like someone waving a flag and screaming "I have Aces!!". In these situations, I would almost certainly call with a wide variety of hands to try and catch two pair or a straight IF my opponent is known to "get married" to aces or has a decent stack behind. One other thing here: if the player that has the Aces is a decent sort, if a board comes something like 678 or 9TJ, I might try and steal the pot away from him knowing that he won't call with just the overpair.

If you have the Aces yourself, you might be best trying to sqeeze all but one opponent out of a pot. You will almost always be 6/4 fav - and in omaha, that's enough. The only time Aces are not favourite against a given hand is this: AA62 (none suited) against 89TJ (double suited). The Aces will win 49% of the time.

A paired board is where you see most newbies make mistakes. Houses get turned over all the time so I'd be slow to commit my money with a bad house if I wasn't sure of where I stood.

I think the reason that there is no good book out there is that it's near impossible to write one. The game is far more complex and mature than holdem and is one that can only be learnt one way - through your pocket. All what I've written might seem like garbage but I've won a LOT on Stars and Party Poker in the bigger games over the last few months with my style of play.

Three final points:
Always be aware of collusion in omaha. It's huge. Watch out for squeeze play and best hand play (they're the most common).

Never, ever play capped games. They are a donks wet dream.

Alway play Halibut heads up. He's a fish

58o

Flipper wrote:

Hey Gholi,


Three final points:
Always be aware of collusion in omaha. It's huge. Watch out for squeeze play and best hand play (they're the most common).

Never, ever play capped games. They are a donks wet dream.

Alway play Halibut heads up. He's a fish

Could you elaborate on this please. What specifically should you look for?

Flipper

1) Best hand play, where the two players play only the better of their two hands

2) Squeeze play, where the two raise constantly to drive others out of the pot when both hold bad hands

3) Pot building, where the two raise strategically to force a third player to pay the maximum when one of the partners holds a strong hand

cardshark202

Also, read the PLO forum on 2+2, Roundtower is one of the best(if not the best) posters on there and there is often the odd good thread with some good discussion on it.

Also: Buddylist 'Glendalough' on tribecca. He's an absolute fish. A total donk will donate his stack to you very easily.

accensi0n

5starpool wrote:

Dunno. I am self edumacated, which helps you pick up loads of bad habits along the way.

The best starting hand is AAJTds.

No its not.

AAKKds is.

cardshark202

accensi0n wrote:

5starpool wrote:

Dunno. I am self edumacated, which helps you pick up loads of bad habits along the way.

The best starting hand is AAJTds.

No its not.

AAKKds is.

correct

Mr. Flibble

5starpool wrote:

Play big pairs, but not overaggressively preflop unless you can get it all in pretty much head to head with AA.

Is Omaha different from holdem, where you are happy to be AI pf with AA vs any number of players? Is it -EV to have AA vs a few other players in Omaha, or if you have AA (and a big BR) should you get all in PF with AA if you can? Disregarding cases where your opponent will also have AA and possibly freerolling with better side cards.

5starpool

accensi0n wrote:

5starpool wrote:

Dunno. I am self edumacated, which helps you pick up loads of bad habits along the way.

The best starting hand is AAJTds.

No its not.

AAKKds is.

Well I know which one I prefer.

accensi0n

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Is Omaha different from holdem, where you are happy to be AI pf with AA vs any number of players? Is it -EV to have AA vs a few other players in Omaha, or if you have AA (and a big BR) should you get all in PF with AA if you can? Disregarding cases where your opponent will also have AA and possibly freerolling with better side cards.

Omaha Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8c Ad 9d Ah 108311 28.73 254802 67.59 13879 3.68 0.306
Kd Jd Kh 9h 79149 20.99 297027 78.79 816 0.22 0.211
9s 8s 7c 6c 116920 31.01 246193 65.30 13879 3.68 0.328
Jc Qd Qh Jh 58247 15.45 318259 84.42 486 0.13 0.155

5starpool

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Is Omaha different from holdem, where you are happy to be AI pf with AA vs any number of players? Is it -EV to have AA vs a few other players in Omaha, or if you have AA (and a big BR) should you get all in PF with AA if you can? Disregarding cases where your opponent will also have AA and possibly freerolling with better side cards.

Your edge is far less in Omaha, and the more players the less the edge. Even though you will probably be a marginal favourite for the hand the edge is much less smaller multiway in Omaha, and is not something I like to do unless I really fancy a gamble and there are several side pots, all of which you are in.

ianmc38

I'm remember reading somewhere recently that AAJTds is better than AAKKds, though I cant remember the source.

accensi0n

5starpool wrote:

accensi0n wrote:

5starpool wrote:

Dunno. I am self edumacated, which helps you pick up loads of bad habits along the way.

The best starting hand is AAJTds.
Well I know which one I prefer.

Want to play 1000 headsup hands with me holding AhKhAdKd and you holding AsAcJcTc?

Daithio

ianmc38 wrote:

I play way more hands in Omaha than I do in holdem./QUOTE]

Flipper wrote:

I wouldn't get too tied up in starting criteria. I myself play 65%-70% of hands in 6 or less handed tables.
/QUOTE]

I think this is true if you're an experienced omaha player, and most of the really big winners play almost any four (eg Halibut). But for starting off and learning the game playing tight preflop is definitely a good idea, especially in the Fitz game where the stacks are relatively shallow. In a deep stacked game I'd play alot more hands preflop, in the 6 handed 3-6 game on Full Tilt I play 40% of the hands. I probably could be a little looser but as I said I'm still learning the intricacies myself.

Mr. Flibble

accensi0n wrote:

Omaha Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards           win   %win     lose  %lose       tie   %tie       [COLOR="Red"]EV
8c Ad 9d Ah  108311  28.73[/COLOR]    254802  67.59     13879   3.68    [COLOR="Red"] 0.306[/COLOR]
Kd Jd Kh 9h   79149  20.99    297027  78.79       816   0.22     [COLOR="Red"]0.211[/COLOR]
9s 8s 7c 6c  116920  31.01    246193  65.30     13879   3.68    [COLOR="Red"] 0.328[/COLOR]
Jc Qd Qh Jh    58247  15.45   318259  84.42       486   0.13     [COLOR="Red"]0.155[/COLOR]

So thats +EV. Omaha is easy then, AA: all in, else wait.

edit:
I can't say I'm any expert, but in my brief encounters with PLO I've found that the key it to raise in position and play very little OOP. I'd raise in pos intending to build the pot not necessarily caring if I hold better cards that the callers. So you have position in all the big pots and PLO, for me, seems so much harder than holdem to play OOP.
This pretty much means if you c-bet against not a very good player you find out where you are pretty quickly, or force them to float oop. I've also found that playing deeper in Omaha makes more sense than in Holdem, as the flop and turn bets are usually bigger as opponants can have bigger draws. I have really only played shorthanded so I'm in pos more often, and am playing idiots. Don't know if this gem is of much use in the real world.

accensi0n

Mr. Flibble wrote:

So thats +EV. Omaha is easy then, AA: all in, else wait.

How do you get it to look all pretty?

5starpool

accensi0n wrote:

5starpool wrote:

accensi0n wrote:

Want to play 1000 headsup hands with me holding AhKhAdKd and you holding AsAcJcTc?

If you make my hand double suited I would consider it. As a side bet, we could see whose urine gets higher up the wall.

accensi0n

5starpool wrote:

accensi0n wrote:

5starpool wrote:

If you make my hand double suited I would consider it. As a side bet, we could see whose urine gets higher up the wall.

You need that side as a chance to win all the money back that I took from you in the main bet don't you?

Mr. Flibble

accensi0n wrote:

How do you get it to look all pretty?

Use [code ] [/code ] tags, like you use quote tags.

mewso

One book I would recommend is Omaha Poker by Bob Ciaffone but as has been said there are not that many books out there worth reading.
I've been playing low limit 6 handed on Boyle lately and the standard can be very bad which is handy as I too am still feeling my way.

rag2gar

Is there any books worth reading for a beguinner, one which perhaps lays out all the top hands etc?

Lafortezza

rag2gar wrote:

Is there any books worth reading for a beguinner, one which perhaps lays out all the top hands etc?

Ralf Slotbloom has written a new PLO book, it's meant to be decent.
You'll find various sites around the net giving starting hand charts and so on.