Clutch/gear trouble

up for anything

I don't know if I'm posting this in the right place or if I'm supposed to post it at all but if anybody out there can tell me what might be wrong, I'd be grateful.

I just got into the car and couldn't put it into first or reverse or any gear. I ended up putting it in second and starting the car, got it into third but then it wouldn't budge from third. I had to switch off and start again. It won't go into any gear easily and some not at all. Any idea what's wrong before I ring my garage man?:(

want2play

ah, your gearbox is gone!

up for anything

Please, please tell me you are joking.:(

want2play

up for anything wrote:

I don't know if I'm posting this in the right place or if I'm supposed to post it at all but if anybody out there can tell me what might be wrong, I'd be grateful.

I just got into the car and couldn't put it into first or reverse or any gear. I ended up putting it in second and starting the car, got it into third but then it wouldn't budge from third. I had to switch off and start again. It won't go into any gear easily and some not at all. Any idea what's wrong before I ring my garage man?:(

Wish I was.... If you can put it in 1st or 2nd and the car moves then it may be not as bad, i doubt its the linkage to the gear box but that would be less expensive.

Chances are the gear cogs are damaged and the gearbox will have to come out and be rebuilt. Get it lifted to a garage and dont damage it anymore. I hope its something simple for you, but its going to need a rebuild if the damage is in the box. cost me €480 for a rebuild and refit, in a backstreet garage.

up for anything

I'd love to say thanks for the information but I wouldn't be able to get the words out between sobs. This couldn't have come at a worse time. Well, at least I know when the garage guy starts looking gloomy and expensive that he's not taking the piss out of me because I'm a woman. Th...sob... an... sob sob...ks.

Darragh29

want2play wrote:

ah, your gearbox is gone!

Might not be gearbox, could be clutch cable, clutch slave cylinder, clutch components, pedal problem, etc. What make/model is the car??? What does the clutch pedal feel like when you press it, does it feel normal???

Darragh29

want2play wrote:

Wish I was.... If you can put it in 1st or 2nd and the car moves then it may be not as bad, i doubt its the linkage to the gear box but that would be less expensive.

Chances are the gear cogs are damaged and the gearbox will have to come out and be rebuilt. Get it lifted to a garage and dont damage it anymore. I hope its something simple for you, but its going to need a rebuild if the damage is in the box. cost me €480 for a rebuild and refit, in a backstreet garage.

Please stop giving stupid advice to the OP. A gearbox problem is the worst case scenario here, this could easily be a simple problem from the information she has given.

want2play

True could be the clutch....I persumed you tried for that, see if the clutch holds the car - if it dosent should be easier on the pocket!

Darragh29

want2play wrote:

True could be the clutch....I persumed you tried for that, see if the clutch holds the car - if it dosent should be easier on the pocket!

What are you on about, "the clutch holding the car"??? You obviously haven't a clue what your talking about.

want2play

Darragh29 wrote:

Please stop giving stupid advice to the OP. A gearbox problem is the worst case scenario here, this could easily be a simple problem from the information she has given.

Oh ok darragh, preparing for the worse case scenario is stupid?

I really hope its simple but Im going by past experience, isnt that why people post on forums? for others advise / experience....you idiot.

Darragh29

want2play wrote:

Oh ok darragh, preparing for the worse case scenario is stupid?

I really hope its simple but Im going by past experience, isnt that why people post on forums? for others advise / experience....you idiot.

You don't send someone off to buy a gearbox just because you had a similar problem in the past that required you to buy a gearbox! Finding out what the problem is with her car is a process of elimination. You advised her that she needed a new gearbox without asking a single question about the make/model, what the clutch pedal feels like, etc. That's just pure thick.

want2play

Right darragh whatever you say, your in the wrong thread to be bitching.

As I said earlier; I persumed the clutch was already ruled out.

The first thing you'll notice is the pedal getting spongy on it then it gets hard to get in gear,and then you might feel it slipping a little,the slipping is usually what gives it away,and by the time you feel it slipping,its usually to late to save it,and another thing you might feel in it is a chatter when you let the pedal out,these are the most common things you,ll notice on a wearing clutch.

Darragh29

Just pointing out fact. The OP said nothing about a clutch problem being ruled out. She said she couldn't get gear and you told her to get a new gearbox-FACT.

want2play

Darragh29 wrote:

You don't send someone off to buy a gearbox just because you had a similar problem in the past that required you to buy a gearbox! Finding out what the problem is with her car is a process of elimination. You advised her that she needed a new gearbox without asking a single question about the make/model, what the clutch pedal feels like, etc. That's just pure thick.

Where did I tell her go off and buy a new gearbox? Are you illiterate as well as stupid?

I said what was from my own experience, I told her to get it to a garage and IF the gear box is damaged it MAY need a rebuild.

Jesus theres some people here with no common sense.

up for anything; take it to a garage to be sure.

want2play

Darragh29 wrote:

Just pointing out fact. The OP said nothing about a clutch problem being ruled out. She said she couldn't get gear and you told her to get a new gearbox-FACT.

Well? Im still looking for where I said "get a new gearbox"? - FACT.

Darragh29

OP, please feel free to PM me on this if you want a professional opinion on the problem you have. I'm not getting into a debate with someone on this thread who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

crosstownk

What is the make, model and year of the car? It may be your clutch and/or selector mechanism.

Did this problem happen 'all of a sudden' or has it been present for sometime, but slowly getting worse?

want2play

want2play wrote:

Well? Im still looking for where I said "get a new gearbox"? - FACT.

But darragh you cant even read?

overdriver

Can you kids stop squabbling for long enough to help her???

Sheeesh!

Redrocket

sorry i didnt read all that nonsense aobve, can some mod please delete it all!
i thought i had gearbox problems recently, i was sometimes unable to push into/out of 1st and 2nd, i got the clutch cable shortened/tightened, and its been working a charm since.

C_Breeze

the 1st guy that said your gearbox is gone is a tool!

95% sure it will be either

Clutch : pressure plate (you will need a new clutch)

Master cylinder for the clucth or either slave cylinder (or both)

Car Mad

stevenk wrote:

sorry i didnt read all that nonsense aobve, can some mod please delete it all!
i thought i had gearbox problems recently, i was sometimes unable to push into/out of 1st and 2nd, i got the clutch cable shortened/tightened, and its been working a charm since.

only helps for a while stevenk.i had the same problem in a a jap jeep(remains nameless:rolleyes: )i cudnt put it into first gear or reverse.so the mechanic told me put it into second then first so the cogs r spinning.it worked for a wile til he got the clutch.twas a clutch in mine anyway:mad: complete new clutch for me twas bout 370€ and i didnt pay for labour coz i know the mechanic well;) hope its only a simple problem for u tho.bring it to a mechanic u know and trust:rolleyes: theres a few good ones out there

kluivert

I was going to say clutch cable as well.

Need more details as to the type of the car.

Is the making loud grinding noises when you try to engage any of the gears.

Jood

Sounds a bit like what happened to me and my brother ( 2 puntos ). It turned out that it was the pressure plate that went in my car and I needed a new clutch. It came to 250e all together but then I knew the mechanic.

up for anything

Many thanks for all your input, lads. Is this what goes on behind the scenes in garages around the country when we leave our cars in! Knock down fights between the mechanics. No wonder when we come back to pick up the car there is always a hefty bill to pay. Everything in the engine gets changed just in case because no one can agree on any one thing.:D

Seriously, thanks. My mechanic came out to have a look at it. He sat into the car put his foot on the clutch and changed gears effortlessly.:o Why was my first thought 'oh ****e, I've brought him 15 miles into town for nothing' instead of 'thank f***, it's working ok and I won't have to shell out hundreds on new parts and labour.':D

He reckons it was an air bubble that got trapped. He said when he depressed the clutch the first time he did think there was a problem with it but he pumped it and then brought it up fully and it seemed to clear. He checked the engine for leakages and listened inside the engine bay to the sound the clutch made when I depressed it and said it all seems tickety boo. Relief all round.:D

Darragh29

Jood wrote:

Sounds a bit like what happened to me and my brother ( 2 puntos ). It turned out that it was the pressure plate that went in my car and I needed a new clutch. It came to 250e all together but then I knew the mechanic.

Punto's are famous for clutch failure. In my garage the Valeo 3 piece clutch kit for Punto's is the fastest moving item on the shelf.

up for anything

I drive a Chrysler Voyager seven seater.

Darragh29

up for anything wrote:

Many thanks for all your input, lads. Is this what goes on behind the scenes in garages around the country when we leave our cars in! Knock down fights between the mechanics. No wonder when we come back to pick up the car there is always a hefty bill to pay. Everything in the engine gets changed just in case because no one can agree on any one thing.:D

Thankfully no. In well run garages such as my own, professional people are training to use a systematic process of elimination to acurately diagnose faults first time every time. This is why I got annoyed with the other poster here, telling you your gearbox is fu*ked when it clearly isn't. If you had have taken his advice, your car would now be on the back of a tow truck (around 150 Euro) and you'd be wasting your time ringing scrapyards looking for a gearbox...

Seriously though, if you have an air bubble in your clutch hydraulic line, it might be indicating an upcoming seal problem at the clutch cylinder at the pedal or the clutch slave cylinder at the bell housing. Modern clutches now use a CSC (Concentric Slave Cylinder), which integrates the clutch release bearing and the clutch slave cylinder into a CSC which is located inside the bell housing of the gearbox, this CSC might be leaking out oil, keep an eye on your clutch fluid level. If its dropping, the fluid is leaking out somewhere.

quarryman

Had a similar problem with my focus, just wouldn't go into gear. Crawled down to a garage and he bled the clutch fluid. Couldn't get it working at all and just walked away "Sorry mate we're booked in all week", left me stranded as he locked up the garage. Rang the AA and was sorted in 10 minutes.

He just refilled the clutch fluid and pumped the pedal till there was a bite again, i was very relieved - no gearbox replacement!

buzz

You might be lucky just having to replace a syncro or 2.. Or try "Mr Gearbox"

Darragh29

quarryman wrote:

Had a similar problem with my focus, just wouldn't go into gear. Crawled down to a garage and he bled the clutch fluid. Couldn't get it working at all and just walked away "Sorry mate we're booked in all week", left me stranded as he locked up the garage. Rang the AA and was sorted in 10 minutes.

He just refilled the clutch fluid and pumped the pedal till there was a bite again, i was very relieved - no gearbox replacement!

I have a customer who stopped at a traffic light one day and when he went to take off, the clutch pedal went straight to the floor. He got the AA to tow him to the nearest garage, they had a look at it, (found out that a small piece of metal had come off the clutch pedal and it was no longer connected to the clutch cylinder, approximate cost of repair was under 200 Euro for new pedal box and other clips, etc), decided to tell him it was his clutch that was gone and wanted to charge him 1,300 Euro for replacing it (was a performance car).

He smelled a fish and had the car brought in to my place on a recovery truck for a second opinion and I think we had him sorted for 150/180 Euro or something like that...

Cowboys Ted!

maidhc

Darragh29 wrote:

. Modern clutches now use a CSC (Concentric Slave Cylinder), which integrates the clutch release bearing and the clutch slave cylinder into a CSC which is located inside the bell housing of the gearbox, this CSC might be leaking out oil, keep an eye on your clutch fluid level. If its dropping, the fluid is leaking out somewhere.

Sounds like a very silly design and an expensive one to fix. Is it?

Darragh29

maidhc wrote:

Sounds like a very silly design and an expensive one to fix. Is it?

Well it makes something that was once easily accessible and easy to replace, quite inaccessible. To replace a Concentric Slave Cylinder, the gearbox has to be removed, its just the same as changing a clutch. These CSC's now cause clutch failure when they leak as the oil contaminates the linings on the clutch disc and causes clutch shudder and slip. A reputable garage will always replace a CSC when replacing a clutch. I was at a Valeo conference recently (Valeo are Original Equipment Manufacturers of clutches for most vehicle manufacturers, they make these components for the vehicle manufacturers), and they said that 90% of vehicle manufacturers will be moving to a CSC actuated clutch system in the next 10 years. The one thing about the CSC though is that they are substantially more expensive than the old clutch release bearings, a CSC for a Ford Mondeo can cost up to 170 Euro. This is on top of the two piece clutch kit which could cost anything up to 300 Euro... They give a ligher clutch pedal though, simplify the clutch actuation system and replace two components with one, lowering the manufacturing costs.

maidhc

Darragh29 wrote:

Well it makes something that was once easily accessible and easy to replace, quite inaccessible. To replace a Concentric Slave Cylinder, the gearbox has to be removed, its just the same as changing a clutch. These CSC's now cause clutch failure when they leak as the oil contaminates the linings on the clutch disc and causes clutch shudder and slip. A reputable garage will always replace a CSC when replacing a clutch. I was at a Valeo conference recently (Valeo are Original Equipment Manufacturers of clutches for most vehicle manufacturers, they make these components for the vehicle manufacturers), and they said that 90% of vehicle manufacturers will be moving to a CSC actuated clutch system in the next 10 years. The one thing about the CSC though is that they are substantially more expensive than the old clutch release bearings, a CSC for a Ford Mondeo can cost up to 170 Euro. This is on top of the two piece clutch kit which could cost anything up to 300 Euro... They give a ligher clutch pedal though, simplify the clutch actuation system and replace two components with one, lowering the manufacturing costs.

Sounds really clever. Now you have to replace the clutch when the seal goes in the slave cylinder! Yay!

(My 1979 Ford digger has a 13" clutch with no hydraulic assistance, light clutch pedals... pah...)

AMurphy

up for anything wrote:

I drive a Chrysler Voyager seven seater.

I have one of those, Automatic... last time a clutch failed, it took a whole new box, $2500.
Yours, Diesel or petrol?. 4/5/6 cyl?.

Anyway, when you were experiencing this problem, went to put it into reverse, did the gears grind?. or not a sound?.
Given reverse generally has no synchro, I'd expect a lot of grinding.
Given the forward gers have synchro clutches, you cannot get them to grind, unless you push hard.
When you started in 2dn gear, did you have your foot on the clutch or just simply started and it took off.
What happened thereafter, ie did the clutch behave "normally" or was it still very difficult to change gear or even get it out of gear.

If you have a hydraulic clutch, it could have been as simple as a bubble in the line. You might also have a leaking master or slave cyl, master I'd suspect. Keep an eye on the level in the clutch reservoir and/or look for oil stains on the floor/carpet under your foot.

I do not knwo whether this clutch has a sdt slave cyo or the concentric type mentioned here. very easy to find out, follow the oil line from the reservoir to the clutch and see where it ends, outside the box, or leads into it through a hole in the bell housing, or some fitting into the bellhousing.

up for anything

Darragh29 wrote:

Seriously though, if you have an air bubble in your clutch hydraulic line, it might be indicating an upcoming seal problem at the clutch cylinder at the pedal or the clutch slave cylinder at the bell housing. Modern clutches now use a CSC (Concentric Slave Cylinder), which integrates the clutch release bearing and the clutch slave cylinder into a CSC which is located inside the bell housing of the gearbox, this CSC might be leaking out oil, keep an eye on your clutch fluid level. If its dropping, the fluid is leaking out somewhere.

Thanks for that, Darragh. It's going in for a service next week so I'll print out this and give it to my mechanic to read. There is a leak somewhere in the car because where it sits on the drive it always leaves a bit of a mark although no one can see from where but there is a thingy on the right hand side of the engine in the back (haven't a clue what it's called) that has stains all over it like liquid has been blown from somewhere else. I'll draw his attention to it in case that's part of the problem although he should have noticed it for himself.

Hopefully, it's still much ado about nothing.

AMurphy

up for anything wrote:

Thanks for that, Darragh. It's going in for a service next week so I'll print out this and give it to my mechanic to read. There is a leak somewhere in the car because where it sits on the drive it always leaves a bit of a mark although no one can see from where but there is a thingy on the right hand side of the engine in the back (haven't a clue what it's called) that has stains all over it like liquid has been blown from somewhere else. I'll draw his attention to it in case that's part of the problem although he should have noticed it for himself.

Hopefully, it's still much ado about nothing.

Given the RHS of the vehicle is the pully end of the engine on those vehicles, I suspect the item you speak of is the Power Steering pump and may leak at he shaft seal, then the pulley spins the oil all over the place, keep a check on your PS fluid also.

A clutch slave cyl is midways in the engine, front, center or back I have no idea. Post a few photos and we'll identify them for you.

up for anything

AMurphy wrote:

Given the RHS of the vehicle is the pully end of the engine on those vehicles, I suspect the item you speak of is the Power Steering pump and may leak at he shaft seal, then the pulley spins the oil all over the place, keep a check on your PS fluid also.

A clutch slave cyl is midways in the engine, front, center or back I have no idea. Post a few photos and we'll identify them for you.

I can't post any photos... my hard disk is full to bursting and I can't download anything onto it. I have a new one sitting here with GB galore but I need to suss out how to change it and change the internet modem driver as it's a different version of Windows on it. I'll post some if I manage to connect it all up anyone time soon.

AMurphy

I'm sure some other area of this "boards.ie" has an expert on how to make an exact copy of your current HDD to an newer/faster/bigger HDD. Otherwise, I have heard of a utility called "ghost" that's free and makes exact replicas of your hdd... or at least I think that's it.... don't take my word for it. I'm much better with chutches and carburettors than computers.

Meanwhile, and just for interest sake. Is your van a 6 or 7 seater. If 7 how is it arranged, 2+3+2 or 2+2+3, (seats from front to rear). Ours is a US version as you might suspect. 7 seater, 2+2+3, but you'd want 3 people on a strict diet to be comfortable in the back seat, so effectively it is a 2+2+2 and on long trips we throw out the back seat so it becomes 2+2+0, or re-arranged to 2+0+2 with the junk in the center of the van.

and here is a good site for your van;
http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php?showforum=16

Allpar.com

ogriofa

Haya,

96 mazda 121 - all fluid levels are normal, doesnt seem to be any gooeyness anywhere - 40K genuine miles - car in very good condition.

My clutch sticks if ive left it overnight/or at work all day (the last 2 days). One time it screeched, other 2 times no noise. Bring it back to neutral and it works.

Once its running, its grand.

Could it be a cylinder? Any ideas?

thanks