[article] Government urged to release more data on Transport 21

Navan Junction

Frank McDonald , Irish Times, 11/10/2006

The Government needs to release much more information on its €34.4 billion Transport 21 investment programme so that there can be an informed public debate about the policy choices, according to a major report released yesterday.


The report, compiled by transport specialist Prof Austin Smyth of the University of Westminster, queries why the Government has not followed established practice in other EU countries by spelling out the economic justification for its plans.

It also calls for councillors from local authorities in the greater Dublin area to be represented on the board of the proposed Dublin Transport Authority to voice the views of their constituents and ensure a degree of democratic accountability.

Prof Smyth's report - previewed by The Irish Times on August 28th - suggests that many of the "policy-delivery problems" in the transport area resulted from the "arbitrary remits" of the various bodies charged with overseeing transport policy.

Now officially published by the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport (CILT), it recommends that procurement of new projects should be handled collectively to meet the needs of transport operators such as Iarnród Éireann, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann.

It also recommends that the regulation of transport should be independent of these organisations, potential private-sector stakeholders and be "at arms length" from Government to avoid potential political interference.

The report argues that there are contradictions between Transport 21 seeking to restrain car use in the greater Dublin area while pursuing a major roads programme elsewhere that would erode the competitiveness of a "modestly enhanced" inter-city rail network .

"This will pose an even greater challenge in meeting our commitments under the Kyoto agreement on greenhouse gas emissions," said Prof Smyth. "It will also promote further spatial dispersal and rural isolation without necessarily taking the heat off Dublin."

Referring to widely-varying estimates for the cost of the proposed airport metro line in Dublin, he asked why so little information had been made available when the Government "seems so confident that a metro is economically justified".

The CILT is holding a half-day conference, Transporting Ireland, in Dublin on Wednesday, October 18th. Further information may be obtained from the institute, telephone (01) 6763188 or email info@cilt.ie

© The Irish Times

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2006/1011/1160340203956.html

road_high

In relation to this topic, anyone see Cullen on Prime time last night discussing T21? The commentators were whinging that the projects hadn't been properly costed or justified etc.
I had to agree with Cullen; he was pointing out that if they didn't have the plans these would be the very ones complaining the plans weren't in place.

Seth Brundle

I saw Cullen. He came across as an idiot!
The crap coming out of him! He wants the public to get value for money yet won't provide details of economic value for money or why certain projects & routes have been decided upon.

DerekP11

kbannon wrote:

I saw Cullen. He came across as an idiot!
The crap coming out of him! He wants the public to get value for money yet won't provide details of economic value for money or why certain projects & routes have been decided upon.

FF=CRH.

popebenny16

DerekP11

Looks like we're back so, and not a moment too soon.

I mean c'mon if you out there actually think that T21 is anything other than a cheap political stunt then you are best safely kept away from e-mails from those Nigerian oil scammers.

why the Government has not followed established practice in other EU countries by spelling out the economic justification for its plans.

Because there's "nothing ruled in, nothing ruled out"

T21 has one aim and one aim only - to get the government over May. After that - kaboom.

If the opposition had any guts at all they'd simply come out and say T21 is a load of fetid dingos kidneys. But they wont, because its a finely tuned document that appears to be full of substance but really has more holes in it the more you look.

Aero21 more like.

Navan Junction

popebenny16 wrote:

T21 has one aim and one aim only - to get the government over May.

And because the opposition are completely USELESS they'll get away with it without any danger of political fallout.

I'm moving to the West. At least there if there is a problem or an issue, they at least close ranks to get it sorted.

Here people just meekly follow and accept their lot.

Victor

I think this is the way to go.

http://audgen.gov.ie/documents/specialreports/06_NationalRoadsAuthority.pdf

westtip

Navan Junction wrote:

I'm moving to the West. At least there if there is a problem or an issue, they at least close ranks to get it sorted.

.

Some differences of opinion on the WRC out here in the West Nav.

By the way if anyone thinks T21 was the biggest PR nonsense ever - basically announcing they were going to do what they said they would do but hadn't you wait until they launch the next National Development Plan - boy oh boy is that going to be the biggest pre-election stunt or what.

Navan Junction

westtip wrote:

Some differences of opinion on the WRC out here in the West Nav.

That is true too.. Meant in general.. If I went west I'd go the whole hog to connemara or Galway city - I don't think I'd be considering any of the areas where the WRC would pass through anyhow..

BTW, there is a piece about cycle trails in todays times..

DerekP11

popebenny16 wrote:

Looks like we're back so, and not a moment too soon.

I mean c'mon if you out there actually think that T21 is anything other than a cheap political stunt then you are best safely kept away from e-mails from those Nigerian oil scammers.



Because there's "nothing ruled in, nothing ruled out"

T21 has one aim and one aim only - to get the government over May. After that - kaboom.

If the opposition had any guts at all they'd simply come out and say T21 is a load of fetid dingos kidneys. But they wont, because its a finely tuned document that appears to be full of substance but really has more holes in it the more you look.

Aero21 more like.

Amen brother benny. Swiss cheese, the lot of it.

The funny scenarios will follow. If FF get back in, the "slowdown" will ensue. If its a Government formed by the current opposition, it'll be like handing the instructions for the space shuttle to a shop assisatnt.

Navan Junction

DerekP11 wrote:

If FF get back in

Breaking news... FF up 8% in opinion poll

DerekP11 wrote:

If its a Government formed by the current opposition, it'll be like handing the instructions for the space shuttle to a shop assisatnt.

More breaking news.. Inside FGer says it looks like FG will not commit to Navan rail link. There goes "a vote for FG is a vote for Navan rail" by the looks of it.

It would be ironic if rail campaigners were forced to campaign in Meath to keep Cullen in his job. From what the grape-vine is whispering, then this could be the case...

Slice

It's a bit dissapointing how silent T21fan is on this subject, there's nothing but consensus going on...

Navan Junction

Slice wrote:

It's a bit dissapointing how silent T21fan is on this subject, there's nothing but consensus going on...

I think he got disillusioned too, having read a thread he started on the P11 board.. Think is in the canteen

Zebra3

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=184&si=1706643&issue_id=14769

Luas system 'too costly' and limited

EACH peak-time journey on Dublin's Luas tramway costs the taxpayer around €6, even when the savings from fewer car journeys are counted, the annual Dublin economists' conference was told, writes Brendan Keenan.

Robert Wattt of Indecon said there were serious doubts as to whether any more Luas lines should be built, given their high costs and limited capacity.

It had been shown in other cities that dedicated busways could carry five times as many passengers as the Luas 6,000 per hour, while Metro and DART lines could carry over 50,000."At present, there is not enough demand to justify the Metro line to Swords and Dublin Airport," he said.

"But housing and commercial development could take place along the line to make it competitive. Luas does not have the capacity."

He said there was not enough data available to assess the value of major projects in the Government's Transport 21 plan, most of which was not costed in any case.

"We need to count the very considerable disruption costs during construction of projects like Luas," he said.

Anyone know who or what Indecon are?

Seth Brundle

http://www.indecon.ie/

Metrobest

Zebra3 wrote:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=184&si=1706643&issue_id=14769



Anyone know who or what Indecon are?

Yawn. We''ve heard all this before. These bozos in Indecon should be tranquilised.

spacetweek

>"At present, there is not enough demand to justify the Metro line to Swords and Dublin Airport," he said
This runs totally counter to everything else we've heard and frankly I don't believe it.

No, dedicated busways are NOT better than Luas because buses suffer from poor image in Dublin (and rightly so) and many people will not use them on principle. Also, since they are a different mode, there is the issue of network fragmentation - illustrated by the mad proposal to extend Luas into the docklands by means of an electric bus - so people are supposed to get Luas as far as Connolly and complete the remaining <1km of their journey on a different mode. Finally our idea of dedicated busways (a few white lines on the road) falls far short of the type encountered abroad that the spokesman is referring to.

In addition, couching Luas solely in economic terms ignores unquantifiable but very important benefits such as its social impact. In the sense that it provides good public transport to people who previously had none or wouldn't use PT because it was inadequate, Luas is very valuable.

Navan Junction

Metrobest wrote:

Yawn. We''ve heard all this before

Correct.

DerekP11

Dedicated busways are not necessarily white lines on a road. Think the Luas alignment, but with long bendi buses as opposed to trams and the additional infrastructure.

Just tossing that one into the pot.