Womens Self Defence: Oldschool!

Jimkel

Wing tsun.
The name means "Beautiful Springtime" A girls name in China.
legend has it was developed by a woman named Yim Wing Tsun under the guidance of a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui in China.

Yim Wing Tsun needed to defeat a large warrior who treathened to force her to marry him, She asked for some time (a year i think) to pray and prepare for marraige. During this time she begged Ng Mui to help her escape this marraige. The nun agreed to help and began refining Shoalin techniques to suit Wing Tsuns needs. After studying this new style Yim Wing Tsun then sent a message to the Man saying she would marry him on the condition that he defeats her in a fight. He laughed and agreed.

Of course she won and the embaressed Man fled never to bother her again. This is the legend. For those interested this site offers details into the "true" history of the art.
http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/truthrevealed.php


Wing Tsun (Wing chun, Ving Tsun) was made famous by Bruce Lee, including the famous 1 inch punch (Sometines called the 3 inch punch, The actual distance varies but the principal is the same).

Wing tsun is not designed for head to head weight matched ring/cage fights, it is designed for fast and effective self defence against a much larger and stronger opponent. Kind of like Guerilla tactics, Strike,stun,damage and dissapear.

Wing tsun is designed for Close up self defence, Unlike TKD/Kickboxing etc.(which are medium to long range stand up styles with minimal close up application)
It is also a suprisingly violent Martial art despite It's name.

Most of the kicks are to the shin and lower leg area including the groin and knees. The parries and Punches are built on a nucleous (Circular) system of protecting vital points whilst also being effective attacks. The most interesting thing about Wing Tsun is probably the fact that a block can also be a Punch, simultaneously with the same arm. As opposed to The Karate\TKD basics of Block then Punch.

There is also alot of "using the opponents force against them" Style Grappling. Not in a flashy "Use the force" Aikido way, but in a purely scientific and functional way. A complex yet effortlessly simple Kung Fu. Not to be confused with Shoalin Kung Fu, Wing Tsun has more in common with Phillipino Martial arts then it's Chinese counterparts.It was also the Driving force behind Bruce Lee's theory of "Jeet Kune Do".

The idea is not to knock out an opponent but to strike weak points in quick succesion such as the Eyes,nose,throat,Solar plexus,kidneys, and groin, (Even the toes). Untill the pain becomes unbearable. Which would be very quickly judging by the following:

The Record for the fastest punch is held by Wing Tsun Grandmaster William Cheung (Student of Bruce Lee's teacher Yip Man, And Yip Mans top Student even over Bruce).The experement was carried out in Havard where he achieved an amazing 8.3 complete punches per second!
At this speed you could imagine a woman being capable of stunning a man long enough to make an escape. Or do him some nasty damage.

And if given enough time and study this 400+ year old Martial art could possibly be the ultimate in womens self defence.

Black Swan

Jimkel wrote:

Yim Wing Tsun needed to defeat a large warrior who treathened to force her to marry him, She asked for some time (a year i think)

Only a year of training? Obviously a legend! Urban legend? Interesting story and MA style. Worth looking into. Thanks for bringing it up.

john kavanagh

Jimkel wrote:

The Record for the fastest punch is held by Wing Tsun Grandmaster William Cheung.

pity he couldn't land one in this fight.

Colm_OReilly

There is also alot of "using the opponents force against them" Style Grappling. Not in a flashy "Use the force" Aikido way, but in a purely scientific and functional way.

I love how science is used all the time on this thread, without any sort of back up data. It always reminds me of the scene in Anchorman "It's AnchorMAN, not AnchorLADY, and that's a scientific fact!"

A complex yet effortlessly simple Kung Fu.

That's a little oxymoronic, isn't it? One could probably say that about any style/art/system/sport and show "evidence" to support it.

Jimkel

Interesting story, thanks for posting it.

Jimkel wrote:

Most of the kicks are to the shin and lower leg area including the groin and knees. The parries and Punches are built on a nucleous (Circular) system of protecting vital points whilst also being effective attacks. The most interesting thing about Wing Tsun is probably the fact that a block can also be a Punch, simultaneously with the same arm. As opposed to The Karate\TKD basics of Block then Punch.

Not true, in the style of kenpo I'm learning the blocks are strikes. Must be a bit of Wing Tsun in there!

Millionaire

those stomps to the shins, especially inward stomp where you push your boot down the shin, can be lethal.

I seen photo of leg wounds, after people had been stomped in shins with this in real life, with shoes on. The damage was horrific, and even shocked me.

If you go to Lee Morrisons site www.urbancombatives.com and go to the articles, there is one about some SD instructor "tank" someone from NZ down under, and a very intersting article on when these kicks are used.

Jimkel

Deleted User wrote:

Interesting story, thanks for posting it.



Not true, in the style of kenpo I'm learning the blocks are strikes. Must be a bit of Wing Tsun in there!

When I referred to Karate I was referring to the Okinowan/Japanese martial arts which have been developed from the Okinowan arts of "Te". "Karate" was a Term atrributed to Gichin Funakoshi, Founder of Shotokan and the father of modern Karate .Originally translated as "Tang Dynasty hand" or "China Hand", reffering to the mix between Okinowan "Te" (Hand) and Chinese (Kara) techniques.Kara meaning Tang, The Japanese nickname for China.

Following Japan's invasion of eastern China in 1933 and After a meeting of Karate masters, the name was changed to mean "Empty Hand". The Kanji
Or written word for "Tang" was changed To "Empty", But it is pronounced the same. Hence Karate referres to the styles coming from this region and developed by the students of the masters of these styles. Shotokan, Goju-ryu, ****o-ryu, Wado-ryu, Kyokushin Are some of the most famous Styles Of Karate.

Kenpo (Kempo) however was a blanket term in japan reffering to various feudal chinese Martial arts whos names were usually too long for general use, Kenpo as a modern martial art is also a blanket term for Various styles of mixed martial arts based on Shoalin, Jujitsu and Karate.Sometimes referred to as Kenpo Kung fu. People started to combine Shoalin Kung Fu and Grappling techniques from Japan, But used the structure of Karate to make it easier for students to Learn. As a result Kenpo became widely referred to as Karate, yet it holds no lineage to Okinowan Te, and therefore is not Karate. Kenpo is really just a modern way of teaching Kung fu.

So there could very well be Some Wing tsun in your style, Or Jujitsu, Or Shotokan. Kenpo is a mixture.

From a different perspective, All the Blocks in Shotokan are effective strikes also. But the Direct route of Wing Tsun punches is is also a block without any extra movement. that's what I was referring to.

Very interesting Jimkel. I don’t know much about the history of various arts.
I tried to do a bit of online research a while ago but there’s so much ‘politics’ between the various kenpo associations that I found it impossible to find definitive answers about origins/influences etc.
So I decided to forget the arguments and focus on the training!

Jimkel

To be honest John your Probably right, He gets his ass Kicked. I have never seen Footage of him, But it is true about the record for Fast Punching.

Check these out

Fast Punching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuH-GYUHyQw&mode=related&search=

Jeet kune Do teacher (Based on Wing tsun) Very fast
http://comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=612

Some techniques (Pity about the sound)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6aw4H-ahQ

I don't know if this is real, but if it is fair play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ4tYfq6sUw&mode=related&search=

I'm not advocating Wing stun, My intention was to raise the issue of Martial arts which rarely get talked about. What I wrote is what I know of Wing Chun. I don't study it anymore and I'ts very hard to find a good teacher with the correct Lineage (to Grandmaster Yip man, Bruce Lee etc). I Could only find one club In Ireland when I searched the web. My old Teacher, who has a modern approach and advertises his club as self defence for men and women.

Jimkel

Deleted User wrote:

I decided to forget the arguments and focus on the training!

I agree, If you find a style and club you are happy in and benifitting from., Who cares about history. The only reason I know about karate's history is from books and research and asking questions to my teachers out of personal interest. I used to do Kenpo, one of the best fighters I know is a kenpo 3rd dan. I study Shotokan now, one of my sensie's is also a kenpo black belt. I love the idea behind Kenpo I just find it hard to find a good club where it's tought well. Some places just hand out black belts, Like Tae Kwon Do or indeed, Karate. You know your onto something good if it's extremely hard to get a black belt. That means a high standard of Instructors.

Roper

Jimkel wrote:

You know your onto something good if it's extremely hard to get a black belt. That means a high standard of Instructors.

No, I don't think thats anywhere near the case. Just because something is hard to get doesn't mean its a guarantee of skill or ability. I know guys who've been doing martial arts for years and took a long time to get their black belts but can't kick snow off a rope. How long did it take BJ Penn to get his BJJ black belt? 3 years or something, but I don't think anyone would dispute his skill.

And then theres places that don't have any belts, how do you test them?

LukeyJudo22

Jimkel wrote:

****o-ryu

That has to be my favourite style of karate.

Sorry i know it's a typo. Interesting history lesson though.

Millionaire

Good post Jimkel.....nice to see background on other MAs.

Shall check out the Vid links!

john kavanagh

Jimkel wrote:

He gets his ass Kicked. .

yes he does

Jimkel wrote:

But it is true about the record for Fast Punching.

maybe but not much use if all you can do is flail about on the ground when things go 'live'

Jimkel wrote:

I don't know if this is real, but if it is fair play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ4tYfq6sUw&mode=related&search=

lol you dont really think that's real do you? looks like an early Van Damme movie!!

Jimkel wrote:

Check these out

Fast Punching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuH-GYUHyQw&mode=related&search=

Jeet kune Do teacher (Based on Wing tsun) Very fast
http://comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=612

Some techniques (Pity about the sound)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6aw4H-ahQ

rehearsed demos against compliant 'opponents', very impressive :rolleyes:

Jimkel wrote:

I'ts very hard to find a good teacher with the correct Lineage (to Grandmaster Yip man, Bruce Lee etc).

yes, because that's whats important - gotta have the lineage!

Michael O Leary

Jimkel wrote:

I'ts very hard to find a good teacher with the correct Lineage (to Grandmaster Yip man, Bruce Lee etc). I Could only find one club In Ireland when I searched the web. My old Teacher, who has a modern approach and advertises his club as self defence for men and women.

Hi Jimkel,

I will use the generic name of Wing Chun so as to avoid confusion.

The Wing Chun that Yip Man learned is different from what he later taught as a teacher in Fatshan. The Wing Chun he taught in Fatshan is different from the Wing Chun he taught in Hong Kong in the 40's and 50's which again is different from what he taught just before he died in the early 70's. So the whole issue of lineage is very subjective.

Yip Man has two son's, Yip Chun and Yip Ching. Both have their own organisations and teach Wing Chun differently. Our chief instructor, Leung Ting states that he "based" his Wing Tsun on the generic art of Wing Chun. Kind of like the movie "Lord of the Rings" being based on the book. Leung Ting asks ,"who cares how traditional you are when you are being punched in the face?".

So in conclusion Wing Tsun/Chun is based on principles, not techniques. In Leung Ting Wing Tsun we follow traditional Wing Chun principles but we have modernised the way it is taught as the art is no longer being taught to groups of 4 and 5 the way it traditionally was in China.

The other school that you referred to, which one was it?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

pma-ire

Deleted User wrote:

Not true, in the style of kenpo I'm learning the blocks are strikes. Must be a bit of Wing Tsun in there!

In the TKD I teach blocks are natural hand and arm movements. The movements usually called blocks are used as strikes, with the ready positions used as parries, locks or chokes!

So

The OP was really a typical "look at how great my art is" post! Everyone has done it at one stage!! Full of generalisations and other stuff

pma-ire

Jimkel wrote:

When I referred to Karate I was referring to the Okinowan/Japanese martial arts which have been developed from the Okinowan arts of "Te". "Karate" was a Term atrributed to Gichin Funakoshi, Founder of Shotokan and the father of modern Karate .Originally translated as "Tang Dynasty hand" or "China Hand", reffering to the mix between Okinowan "Te" (Hand) and Chinese (Kara) techniques.Kara meaning Tang, The Japanese nickname for China.

Following Japan's invasion of eastern China in 1933 and After a meeting of Karate masters, the name was changed to mean "Empty Hand". The Kanji
Or written word for "Tang" was changed To "Empty", But it is pronounced the same. Hence Karate referres to the styles coming from this region and developed by the students of the masters of these styles. Shotokan, Goju-ryu, ****o-ryu, Wado-ryu, Kyokushin Are some of the most famous Styles Of Karate.

Lovely history lesson

"Te" is said to have come Chinese Chuan Fa Kung Fu?? Yes it has evolved in another direction. But many Okinawan based stylists are the ones that have driven alternative applications for the movements classed as being "Blocks" and straight strikes. Again your generalisation has left holes in your argument.

Jimkel wrote:

Kenpo (Kempo) however was a blanket term in japan reffering to various feudal chinese Martial arts whos names were usually too long for general use, Kenpo as a modern martial art is also a blanket term for Various styles of mixed martial arts based on Shoalin, Jujitsu and Karate.Sometimes referred to as Kenpo Kung fu. People started to combine Shoalin Kung Fu and Grappling techniques from Japan, But used the structure of Karate to make it easier for students to Learn. As a result Kenpo became widely referred to as Karate, yet it holds no lineage to Okinowan Te, and therefore is not Karate. Kenpo is really just a modern way of teaching Kung fu.

I've not seen any history of Kempo/Kenpo reaching beyond the last centuary??

pma-ire

Jimkel wrote:

Some places just hand out black belts, Like Tae Kwon Do or indeed, Karate. You know your onto something good if it's extremely hard to get a black belt. That means a high standard of Instructors.

My God man! You've got some blinkered views on other martial arts that you have not had any contact with??

pma-ire

john kavanagh wrote:

lol you dont really think that's real do you? looks like an early Van Damme movie!!

I was just gonna post that!

It looked very very staged and I don't think that any strikes really landed or were thrown with any intention?

Jimkel

Roper wrote:

No, I don't think thats anywhere near the case. Just because something is hard to get doesn't mean its a guarantee of skill or ability. I know guys who've been doing martial arts for years and took a long time to get their black belts but can't kick snow off a rope. How long did it take BJ Penn to get his BJJ black belt? 3 years or something, but I don't think anyone would dispute his skill.

And then theres places that don't have any belts, how do you test them?

I'm not talking about time, It's possible to get a Kenpo balck belt in about 3 years, Shotokan about 4. I'm just pointing out that some clubs do indeed hand out black belts, To guys who can't kick snow off a rope. In some kenpo clubs you have to fight, 1 person, then 2 and 3 at the same time. I say fight but when being attacked by 3 people It's really just survival. In the USKF (Shotokan) among other things you have to fight (not spar, full contact, no points or anything like that) up to 7 people in a row, These people have to be black belts or 3rd brown, and only when the panal of judges is satisfied you can hold your own will you pass. You don't actually have to win every fight, just be still standing and able to defend yourself at the end. As a result people grading for their black belt usually come out bruised and battered, but hopefully with a first dan. However some dont pass, and are required to train untill they can. There is no exceptions, if you can't fight , you dont pass. i think this should be a requirement for a black belt everywhere.

I regards to your question, I was talking about Karate and Kenpo to a Kenpo student so you have to take what I said in context. How do you test people without grades? Thats not my place to answer.
I used to go to a Kenpo club and was appalled when the guy who ran the hall was awarded an honourary black belt by the instructor, ok he helped the club alot but A Black belt!. He had never taken a class in his life. In Dragon the Bruce Lee story, Jason Scott Lee says" a belt is just for holding up your pants"

In the Wing Tsun club I was in the grades were denoted with coloured patches, You start off blue. Yet in boxing there are no grades, A fighter is judged by his skill in the ring, his knowledge and the commitment he puts into it. Some Kung fu places have Sashes. It doesnt matter, I was really saying try to avoid Kenpo or Karate clubs that have Black belts who couldnt fight to save their life.

Jimkel

pma-ire wrote:

The OP was really a typical "look at how great my art is" post! Everyone has done it at one stage!! Full of generalisations and other stuff

I don't practice Wing Chun, I just wanted to talk about it, It's a Martial art I find interesting. I wrote what I know but not as an ad for Wing Chun, Just to raise the subject.

I actually practice Shotokan.

Jimkel

pma-ire wrote:

My God man! You've got some blinkered views on other martial arts that you have not had any contact with??

I wouldn't say "no contact" ,I trained in Kenpo, Wing Chun, Judo, Shotokan and train with friends from other martial arts. I know a several TKD Guys (5) including one who is a black belt. Now just to be careful what I say because I know some people like to pick holes, 3 of them are very good, one of them is a beginner. The black belt is, put simply SH!te. Iv'e sparred with him and , well first of all he could not believe I never use armour, And second of all I won. (He wore his armour by the way) Now PMA-IRE I AM NOT SAYING TKD GUYS ARE BAD FIGHTERS BUT I AM SAYING THAT SOME CLUBS/ORGINISATIONS HAND OUT BLACK BELTS TO PEOPLE WHO CLEARLY DO NOT DESERVE THEM, I have seen this in Karate,Kenpo,TKD and Judo.
Once again I do not train in Wing Chun anymore. I train in Shotokan.

Jimkel

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Jimkel,

I will use the generic name of Wing Chun so as to avoid confusion..........................

www.iewto.org

Thanks Micheal, I learned a little something. I wanted to discuss Wing Chun in the hope that maybe someone would post a little about wing Chun, as usual I got mostly picked apart so it's nice to hear from someone willing to say something useful.

Years ago I was in a club under the Instructor Eugine Murphy in Finglas. I also read alot about Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do, I was young and had a bit of an obsession with Bruce Lee, So I thought that since there were no JKD classes in Ireland, I would get a solid base in Wing Chun. Unfortunatly, Like most 15 year olds I did not have the attention span or commitment to stick to it. I know I was there for at least a year and a few months, can't remember exactly how long tough, But eventually I Dropped out and decided to try my hand at Judo. Wing Chun still interests me, As you say it is a martial art built on principals, And it is those principals that attract me. plus it has served me well back in the rough old days in Coolock.

I suppose Lineage is hard to prove, and understand. I guess I meant some tradition or roots somewhere real in Wing Chun's evolution, Rather then a free floating club with no affiliations or History. I checked out the website, I might join sometime in the future when I get time, I already train 3 nights a week in Shotokan including one event a month, Martial arts wise it keeps me busy. But someday I plan on taking Wing Chun up so I know where to go when I do.
Also two female friends of mine want to give it a go, I said I would find a club somewhere , So now I have. Cheers.!

Nothingcompares

so let me get this straight jimkel, you're a shotokan black belt who is dismissive of other arts for developing black belts that can't fight properly?

Millionaire

Wing Chun questions?

Hi,

I am interested in Wing Chun, not cause I ever did it, but sort of MA history interest, re Bruce Lees evolution, early days to Jeet Kune Do.

What is difference or this big row about Wing Chun Vs William Cheung Traditional Wing Chun?

Something about foot work or something?

Also... I wonder when Bruce Lee was learning in Hong Kong, under Yip Man, did they spar, and use contact?

And I read once Bruce never finished the full system, but only learned part if it before he left for USA?

There was a mag back in 80s from UK called Fighting Arts International. It used to have excellent in depth interviews and articles.

I read a really indepth one on Bruce Lee, where alot of this early day training partners were interviewed. Apparently Bruce and the others, fought lots of challenges against other Kung Fu schools, and Bruce was a scrapper on the streets.

I believe Lee learned the basic, and look them out into the street "live" where fighting spirit, was the factor that helped him win. as well as hard training, as we all know he was obsessed.

He did beat the Hong Kong British School Boys Boxing Champ in a Western Boxing Bout, with minimal boxing training. Thats on record. Maybe Lee just had massive aggression and desire to win!

there are those out there, I have seen them, you can make any "style" work for them live or in the street. Just hardy tough aggressive fighters, with desire to win, and maybe a cold heart!

Colm_OReilly

The idea that a black belt makes a good instructor or coach doesn't really hold water.

Someone can be an excellent athlete/fighter but as regards passing that knowledge on, useless. From the other side, someone could be far better at breaking down and explaining things than actually applying them themselves. So they're a better instructor/coach than a fighter.

The proof of a good technical coach would be how well his athletes/students perform.

Colm

I see what Jimkel was trying to say, it just got muddied somewhere among all that history and belts and Bruce Lee

btw I've been three years at the kenpo and wouldn't be anywhere near 'black belt'. My own interpretation of 'black belt' is based on what I see in my teacher and that's a hell of a lot of hard work, seemingly endless patience and great skill at passing on information. I'd like to try other things too, maybe muay thai, when I feel more proficient in what I'm doing now.

Roper

Jimkel wrote:

I was really saying try to avoid Kenpo or Karate clubs that have Black belts who couldnt fight to save their life.

Hi Jimkel,
Yes I understand that, but I think a lot of Shotokan might be in that vein according to a lot of full contact stylists in this country. Remember that in terms of martial arts "fighting" looks very different in different clubs, and certainly in Shotokan clubs that I've seen (very few admittedly), its just been semi-contact and points sparring with bad punches.

Maybe your system is different though. But I'm just saying before you go pointing fingers and complaining about standards you should make sure you know where you stand in terms of ability. I would have said the same a few years ago as you TBH, and I think its a typical reaction for people who've been told how good their system is and know no different.

smacl

Colm_OReilly wrote:

The proof of a good technical coach would be how well his athletes/students perform.

Great point Colm, and one that I think is missed by many people taking up martial arts or any sport for that matter. Beginners should look at the achievements of recent students not the teacher. That said, most of the best MA teachers I have had have been sucessful compeitors themselves, though the converse does not hold true.

The problem that I see with belt systems is that they are viewed by the outside world as a generic standard, e.g. a TKD black belt is pretty much the same as a Kyukoshin black belt or a BJJ black belt, which is clearly not the case. It can mean that the person has followed a syllabus to a certain stage, proven their ability in competition, demonstrated their ability to teach, or mean nothing at all. It doesn't make belts worthless, but IMO, people place much more stock on them than they merit.

JimKel, sorry for going off at a tangent, and interesting opening topic,

cheers,

Shane

buck65

Some places just hand out black belts, Like Tae Kwon Do or indeed, Karate. You know your onto something good if it's extremely hard to get a black belt. That means a high standard of Instructors.[/QUOTE]

Ah come on get off Taekwon-do's back they don't just hand them out it takes at least 4 years of constant training and hard work to get a black belt. Anyway surely a black belt means that you have a good grasp of the art but not an end in itself I read in David Kahn's Krav Maga book that he only started to learn when he became a black belt. I understand that BJJ and Judo and some other arts take 7 or more years for a black belt but surely that represents the complexity of the art.
In essence Taekwon do is maybe not as complex as some others but each to their own.

pma-ire

Jimkel wrote:

Now PMA-IRE I AM NOT SAYING TKD GUYS ARE BAD FIGHTERS BUT I AM SAYING THAT SOME CLUBS/ORGINISATIONS HAND OUT BLACK BELTS TO PEOPLE WHO CLEARLY DO NOT DESERVE THEM, I have seen this in Karate,Kenpo,TKD and Judo.

This can be said of every style man!

It's down to the person and coach/instructor more than any art!

Nothingcompares

Jimkel explain to me the situation in which you felt a judo guy got his black belt unfairly.

monkey tennis

Jimkel wrote:

You know your onto something good if it's extremely hard to get a black belt. That means a high standard of Instructors.

Nope, you're grossly oversimplifying things. In Japanese universities, it's pretty common for karate students to get a black belt in little more than a year, and anyone who sticks it out is generally good enough to pass in this time. In fact, they say that only retards and foreigners take more than a couple of years :eek: or quit. Does this mean that Japanese karate instructors are no good?

If someone is finding it extremely hard to get a black belt, they could just be sh1te.

Jimkel wrote:

I'ts very hard to find a good teacher with the correct Lineage (to Grandmaster Yip man, Bruce Lee etc)

I literally laughed out loud when I read this.

TwoKingMick

buck65 wrote:

Ah come on get off Taekwon-do's back they don't just hand them out it takes at least 4 years of constant training and hard work to get a black belt. Anyway surely a black belt means that you have a good grasp of the art but not an end in itself I read in David Kahn's Krav Maga book that he only started to learn when he became a black belt. I understand that BJJ and Judo and some other arts take 7 or more years for a black belt but surely that represents the complexity of the art.
In essence Taekwon do is maybe not as complex as some others but each to their own.

In Korea, it's common practice for overwieght Canadian primary school teachers to get TKD black belts in six months. Same goes for their students. And this is the country who's culture TKD habits are based on.

Roper

TwoKingMick wrote:

In Korea, it's common practice for overwieght Canadian primary school teachers to get TKD black belts in six months. Same goes for their students. And this is the country who's culture TKD habits are based on.

Hmmm, that seems like an oddly specific example:D

Jimkel,
You never answered my question (or maybe you did and I don't get it!)
What about martial arts that don't require grades? Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Kickboxing?

Jimkel

Nothingcompares wrote:

Jimkel explain to me the situation in which you felt a judo guy got his black belt unfairly.

I was mates with a guy who done a Judo course, 6 months, one hour a week. At the end of this course , After completing it and paying his money, He was awarded a black belt. There were no belts in between. Just you've done the course heres your black belt. Now I know Judo guys work very hard for their grades so This annoyed me. I'm pretty sure what the Instructor tought as Judo was more of a self defence course based on Judo. But to this day that guy who took the course still says "I'm a black belt in Judo". He hasent done Judo since, That was about 5 years ago.

PMA-IRE here said that this can be true of all martial arts (Handing out Black belts) It depends on the instructor or whatever. I agree, I don't see why people are annoyed at this. I said That I have witnessed it in these arts because I don't want to be seen as making assumptions About arts I have not witnessed it in. But yes it could be true everywhere.

Jimkel

pma-ire wrote:

Lovely history lesson

"Te" is said to have come Chinese Chuan Fa Kung Fu?? Yes it has evolved in another direction. But many Okinawan based stylists are the ones that have driven alternative applications for the movements classed as being "Blocks" and straight strikes. Again your generalisation has left holes in your argument.

Firts of all, WHAT ARGUEMENT? I was not argueing so get off your TKD high horse. Okinowa was home to indiginous Martial arts now referred to as "Te".
Between Okinowan nobels travelling to China and Vice versa, Including various Japanese invasions, And travelling Bhuddists. Chinese Kung Fu Ideas and techniques were mixed into "Te".
Very much like Teakwon in Korea Combined with Karate to become Modern TKD.

As proof of this some of the Kata's in Shotokan have roots in Chinese styles.
various styles of Karate, notably Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu, obtained the routine "San Chian" from Fujian White Crane. A southren Chinese Style.

You Will see in Shoalin Kung Fu training the typical Horse Riding stance, With reverses punches coming from the hip, Just like in Karate. Nearly all eastern styles took something from Kung Fu at some Point in there history.

Type "Karate" into Wikipedia if you want to know more about Chinese influence in "Te"
This is not generalisation, It's simple Historical Fact.

pma-ire wrote:

I've not seen an history of Kempo/Kenpo reaching beyond the last centuary??

If you had of read my post Correctly you would Find I Stated that Historically Kempo\Kenpo AS A WORD was an abbreviation used to describe a large number of different martial arts, since the names were long.

I then Stated that Kenpo AS A MODERN MARTIAL ART is a name usually reffering to a system of Kung Fu combined with Jujitsu Yet tought in the same style as Karate is tought, To make it easier to digest for students. As a result of this Karate's techniques found there way into Kenpo and hence "Kenpo Karate".

It's common for two totally different systems to both call themselves Kenpo,
It is a blanket term.
It is also common for Karate to be misinterprated as another name for Eastren Martial arts. for instance a friend saying "Bruce Lee's Karate is great in that film".
In the West the terms "Kara te" and "Kem po" are generally Blanket terms Referring to a wide variaty of Arts and Fusions.

Michael O Leary

Jimkel wrote:

I'ts very hard to find a good teacher with the correct Lineage (to Grandmaster Yip man, Bruce Lee etc).

Hi all,

I think Jimkel is getting a bit of a hard time over this comment so I will put forward my thoughts and it may put his statement in context.

Just remember that Wing Chun is an unknown martial art to the general public, the only link being to Bruce Lee. Some people want to exploit this link and will advertise themselves as Wing Chun when in fact all they are teaching is a mish mash of stuff they read from a book and some Wing Chun out there is really crap.

By contrast nearly everyone knows what Karate, Kung-Fu and Judo is and most people could probably tell the difference between Karate and Judo as it is part of popular culture. So at least when someone questions the lineage of a Wing Chun school it provides a "rough" link to the historical art made famous in Hong Kong from the 1940's-1970's.

I imagine it is the same with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. A link might be there from the Machado (SP?) brothers or the Gracies themselves. In this case the question of linage can be useful against someone who has merely read a few BJJ books and is passing themselves off as a certified BJJ instructor when all they have studied is Wing Chun. At least you can ask, "So where did you learn your BJJ?"

Of course the whole question of linage can be abused and people can get too wrapped up in it.

Gerry,Millionaire

You asked the whole thing about the William Cheung Wing Chun dispute. Here is my brief version. It could be wrong.

Lots of people learned Wing Chun from Yip Man over the space of about 30 years and as linage is very important to Chinese, the question of a sucessor (sp) was very important. Anyway Bruce Lee went to America and William Cheung to Austrailia and after Yip Man died a Wing Chun committee was set up to oversee the promotion of the art and was headed up by Yip Man's senior instructors. William Cheung then arrived from Austrailia and basically said, "Hey lads, I know Yip Man never menioned it when he was alive but I am the only doing proper Wing Chun. He taught the rest of you (including Yip Man's two son's) a modified and less effective version while he taught me Dim Mak (pressure points) and lots of other stuff. I will show you but I want you to acknowledge me as the head honcho", and he promclaimed himself as the heir linage-wise. (I am paraphrasing:) ) The Wing Chun committee basically in their best Chinese stated, "Will ye ever feck off" and called him a chancer. So in a magazine interview William Cheung challanged anyone to fight him anytime so that he could prove his claim and in particular slagged of Leung Ting and his students. So in 1985 one of Leung Ting's students (Emin Bostepe) turned up at a Wing Chun seminar and fought him.

Some people state that William Cheung's Wing Chun is an improvement on the Wing Chun he originally learned and that he should just admit that he improved it himself the way Bruce Lee apparently did.

So in conclusion this is an example of where linage is a load of balls but on the other hand it can provide a tangible link between the person who made the art famous and the person who is now claiming to be teaching it.

Sorry for the long post.:)

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

Michael O Leary

Millionaire wrote:

Wing Chun questions?

Hi,

I wonder when Bruce Lee was learning in Hong Kong, under Yip Man, did they spar, and use contact?

And I read once Bruce never finished the full system, but only learned part if it before he left for USA?

Apparently Bruce and the others, fought lots of challenges against other Kung Fu schools, and Bruce was a scrapper on the streets.

Hi Gerry,

Briefly,,,:)

I don't know if they sparred. They did free chi-sau which is like chi-sau sparring to a specific range but I don't know if they sparred the same as MT. They sent a team to a Kung-Fu competition but were beaten so Yip Man lowered the price of Wing Chun lessons to get more people in and get a wider range of students.

However yes, you are right. Bruce Lee and other Wing Chun guys used to go and fight other schools on roof tops of buildings. Their main rivals were Choy Lee Fut Kung-Fu guys and in one fight Bruce Lee injured his opponent so much that the police got involved and Lee was sent/went to America.

Bruce Lee only did Wing Chun for about 3.5 years and some would say he never went beyond the basics and therefore had to change Wing Chun when in America whereas if he had learned the full system then he would have been fine. Lee's students however maintain that he was an innovator and would have improved and changed the system no matter how much he learned.

But then you have to look at his motivations for changing the system. Apparently he came up to one of his instructors one day and said, "From now on, no more teaching chi-sau (sticky hands). It takes too long to teach". So he dropped chi-sau as it was holding his up from teaching larger numbers of students.

Imagine the reaction he would have gotton on this forum if he posted that here.

Hope this helps,

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

john kavanagh

Michael O Leary wrote:

I imagine it is the same with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. A link might be there from the Machado (SP?) brothers or the Gracies themselves. In this case the question of linage can be useful against someone who has merely read a few BJJ books and is passing themselves off as a certified BJJ instructor when all they have studied is Wing Chun. At least you can ask, "So where did you learn your BJJ?

an even better question to a BJJ coach would be 'wanna roll?' or watch them rolling

if they are controlling and submitting you without relying on muscle you know you're in the right place. there are of course other factors in chosing a good place to train but for someone interested in performance this would be a much more important question than who they learned from.

Millionaire

Thanks Michael for the update on the info!

like any stye I guess the politics hit, and there is always someone who is the "real sucessor" to the founder. KM suffers the same these days with at least 3 rivial factions, if not more!

Yeah I can imagine your comments on Bruce saying it Chi Sau took too long to teach, as due to many accounts I read, he was impatient and very short and hot tempered by nature.

Apparently he had modified the WC to Jun Fan Gung Fu, and he was happy enough wiht it, until he was challenged in San Fran (over him teaching white people), (the chinese did not want whites to know king fu), and Bruce just about won the challenge. So if forced him to reevaluate his teaching/trainings hence the evolution to JKD.

Of course JKD has split many ways.

I know a guy in the UK who once spole the USA karate lendged Joe Lewis who trained alot with bruce. and Lewis said if Bruce could see what this successors had done to JKD and the change made, if would be turning in his grave!!! (if often wonder was this a reference to the big addition of Filipino MA into JKD by Insanto ???)

pma-ire

Jimkel wrote:

Firts of all, WHAT ARGUEMENT?

The fact that you think I used the word ARGUEMENT as a form of antagonism says it all really! :rolleyes:

And you don't have to tell me about Kara'te history man

pma-ire

Jimkel wrote:

Very much like Teakwon in Korea Combined with Karate to become Modern TKD.

TaeKyon has little to do with TaeKwon-Do! TKD comes from Shotokan Karate! Thats it! Korean practitioners just developed more of the kicking side and claimed it to be a link to this game that they had in the countries history.

It's like the GAA saying that Modern Hurling is directly linked back to Cucullan

Jimkel wrote:

Type "Karate" into Wikipedia if you want to know more about Chinese influence in "Te"
This is not generalisation, It's simple Historical Fact.

I know enough about it thanks Wikipedia is not a place that I would recomend to anyoen to be basing facts on! As it is a site that anyone can update with whatever facts that they want!

Jimkel

pma-ire wrote:

I know enough about it thanks Wikipedia is not a place that I would recomend to anyoen to be basing facts on! As it is a site that anyone can update with whatever facts that they want!

Oh I know that and am sure to double check any research I'm doing by asking Martial artists, Searching official sites for History, Reading books etc
I have found some downright Boll@x on Wikipedia. But The Karate History is quite accuratly fitting with other sources of Info,

Jimkel

pma-ire wrote:

TaeKyon has little to do with TaeKwon-Do! TKD comes from Shotokan Karate! Thats it! Korean practitioners just developed more of the kicking side and claimed it to be a link to this game that they had in the countries history.

It's like the GAA saying that Modern Hurling is directly linked back to Cucullan

I suppose thats true, I picked up a TKD book once and looked at the Kata's, They were the same ones in Shotokan.alot of Arts tend to claim Lineage to ancient Arts. TKD history is something of a mystery to me in many ways. So many different accounts. Each account I've read refers to Taekwon and karate techniques mixing over the years. I read once (in a guiness encyclopedia) that TKD was the oldest MA in the world, 2000 years old. Maybe it's roots go back quite far but thats gotta be a lie.
This is probably an example of people misinforming reaserchers about their style to give it more merit. However As far as TKD goes it's ancient history doesn't really matter as it's such a well established modern MA with a well respected modern history. It's like the Number one MA in the world as far as popularuty goes.

TwoKingMick

Jimkel wrote:

It's like the Number one MA in the world as far as popularuty goes.

And everyone knows popularuty = the best.

Unpossible

And everyone knows popularuty = the best.

pfft dont be silly, everyone knows black belts (especially 10th dans*) are the best :P






*self promoted ones

pma-ire

Jimkel wrote:

I suppose thats true, I picked up a TKD book once and looked at the Kata's, They were the same ones in Shotokan.alot of Arts tend to claim Lineage to ancient Arts. TKD history is something of a mystery to me in many ways. So many different accounts. Each account I've read refers to Taekwon and karate techniques mixing over the years. I read once (in a guiness encyclopedia) that TKD was the oldest MA in the world, 2000 years old. Maybe it's roots go back quite far but thats gotta be a lie.
This is probably an example of people misinforming reaserchers about their style to give it more merit. However As far as TKD goes it's ancient history doesn't really matter as it's such a well established modern MA with a well respected modern history. It's like the Number one MA in the world as far as popularuty goes.

The 2000 year old history came from the WTF camp when they were removing themselves from Gen Choi's group!

Where Choi just said that he was the only one to create TKD.

Every MA can claim history of this sort

Again it comes from national interest and not martial merit.

Why they did not play up more on the fact that the early Kwan members were successfully active in the Korean war is a mystery??

The late Park Jung Tae did speak of this but the rest kinda kept it quiet??

pma-ire

Jimkel wrote:

Oh I know that and am sure to double check any research I'm doing by asking Martial artists, Searching official sites for History, Reading books etc
I have found some downright Boll@x on Wikipedia. But The Karate History is quite accuratly fitting with other sources of Info,

Cool! :cool:

Once you are open to looking at other views, you will work out what makes sense as you read and hear more!

Remember a lot of Karate and TKD instructors only have the self serving versions of there arts history handed down to them from a high!!

It's not there fault. But it does lead to blinkered views on other facts that may be presented to them along the way

pma-ire

TwoKingMick wrote:

And everyone knows popularuty = the best.

You gotta hand it to them Koreans!!

47MartialMan

Jimkel wrote:

I'm not talking about time, It's possible to get a Kenpo balck belt in about 3 years, Shotokan about 4. I'm just pointing out that some clubs do indeed hand out black belts, To guys who can't kick snow off a rope. In some kenpo clubs you have to fight, 1 person, then 2 and 3 at the same time. I say fight but when being attacked by 3 people It's really just survival. In the USKF (Shotokan) among other things you have to fight (not spar, full contact, no points or anything like that) up to 7 people in a row, These people have to be black belts or 3rd brown, and only when the panal of judges is satisfied you can hold your own will you pass. You don't actually have to win every fight, just be still standing and able to defend yourself at the end. As a result people grading for their black belt usually come out bruised and battered, but hopefully with a first dan. However some dont pass, and are required to train untill they can. There is no exceptions, if you can't fight , you dont pass. i think this should be a requirement for a black belt everywhere.

I regards to your question, I was talking about Karate and Kenpo to a Kenpo student so you have to take what I said in context. How do you test people without grades? Thats not my place to answer.
I used to go to a Kenpo club and was appalled when the guy who ran the hall was awarded an honourary black belt by the instructor, ok he helped the club alot but A Black belt!. He had never taken a class in his life. In Dragon the Bruce Lee story, Jason Scott Lee says" a belt is just for holding up your pants"

In the Wing Tsun club I was in the grades were denoted with coloured patches, You start off blue. Yet in boxing there are no grades, A fighter is judged by his skill in the ring, his knowledge and the commitment he puts into it. Some Kung fu places have Sashes. It doesnt matter, I was really saying try to avoid Kenpo or Karate clubs that have Black belts who couldnt fight to save their life.

Rank/grades in Ving Tsun?