F***ing Jacks

The_Chopper

2 hands from the boards SE tourny - let me know what you think.

Hand 1:
Blinds at 75-150
Villian makes it 450 from middle position, (3rd raise in 6 hands)
I flat call on the button with JJ (I don't raise as I plan on playing small pots early)
Flop comes 9 high with 2 rags,
Villian leads out for 600 (he's good enough to make continuation bets)
I raise to 1500 (7500 left behind),
Villian reraises to 3100 leaving 1500 behind (now the pot is approx 5600, opps)
Me????

Hand 2:
Blinds 100-200
Villian 11k
Me 18K

Villian raises in middle position to 600 (he's range is any A, any pocket pair, and king rag )
I reraise to 1500 on the CO with JJ.
Flop 10, 8, 7
Villian leads out for 3k,
I???

BigCityBanker

call 1, reluctantly fold 2 on the basis that you dont need to be involved against somebody with such a big range when uv got a v v playable stack - J 9 is one of my favourite "now where did that come from" hands - and it smells like he has it.

The_Chopper

On the first hand I was thinking I was behind to the reraise on the flop. I put him down for either QQ or KK after the reraise. But the pot odds were so favourable to call. Also villian is an excellent player who's capable of anything. He probably wouldn't effectively risk his whole tourny on nothing.

2nd hand the range is much wider. I know I could be up against anything from pocket 6's to A10.

luckyvegas7

feel your pain, last 10min...15k triwanka... jj twice in first 4 hands...k rag twice.

fuzzbox

In hand 1 - If you dont know what to do when your opponent shoves - then just call the flop.

Im not crazy about your raise size either.

Looks like he wants you to call though, so you can fold. However, you look like you have something like 66/77/88 fairly often.

I dunno - flip a coin.

The_Chopper

fuzzbox wrote:

In hand 1 - If you dont know what to do when your opponent shoves - then just call the flop.

Im not crazy about your raise size either.

Whats wrong with the raise? 2.5 times the 1 st bet is a good information bet, no?

fuzzbox

The_Chopper wrote:

Whats wrong with the raise? 2.5 times the 1 st bet is a good information bet, no?

You are totally ignoring the pot size.

And if its a good information bet - then your decision should be easy .... right?

The_Chopper

fuzzbox wrote:

You are totally ignoring the pot size.

And if its a good information bet - then your decision should be easy .... right?

How am I ignoring the pot size?
Preflop there's 1125 in the pot (BB 150 + SB 75 + 2* raises of 450)
On the flop there is a bet of 600 (pot size 1725)
What's wrong with a raise of 1500 in this spot?

Yes my 1500 was meant as an information bet. However by the time I was reraised there was alot of chips already in the pot - this made my decision tougher

fuzzbox

You ask him to call 900 to win a pot of 3225. You offer him good odds 3.5:1.

Furthermore its a terrible information bet - if your decision is now tough

The_Chopper

fuzzbox wrote:

You ask him to call 900 to win a pot of 3225. You offer him good odds 3.5:1.

Furthermore its a terrible information bet - if your decision is now tough

I still think my bet was a good information bet - the fact that I didn't act upon it is just bad play.

In tournament play I wouldn't call 900 into a 3225 pot with nothing if i had only 3600 behind - would you? Even if the player has 2 overs such as AK, he's not gettin his odds to call, unless he gets a free card on the turn. If he has a hand like top pair with an ace kicker I want him in the pot everytime as he's still not getting the correct odds, again unless I give him a free card on the turn

phantom_lord

The_Chopper wrote:

Even if the player has 2 overs such as AK, he's not gettin his odds to call

is he not getting better than the required odds to call?

The_Chopper

phantom_lord wrote:

is he not getting better than the required odds to call?

No: Assuming he has AK, he's odds of hitting an A or K on the turn is approx 14%. The pot is offering him 3.5 to 1 or 28.5%

I'm not just going to check the turn if another blank falls.

fuzzbox

The_Chopper wrote:

I still think my bet was a good information bet - the fact that I didn't act upon it is just bad play.

The reason that you didnt act on it, is because you inflated the pot so much with your raise, that you couldnt bring yourself to fold.

So its a bad information raise.


But if you like it - then go for it.

phantom_lord

The_Chopper wrote:

I still think my bet was a good information bet - the fact that I didn't act upon it is just bad play.

I'm not a fan of this raising for info lark. Especially if it ends up committing you to the pot and you gain nothing for it. I don't see what this bet achieves. You get your info, but in doing so you almost have to ignore it and call because you're committed...

Hitman Actual

The_Chopper wrote:

2 hands from the boards SE tourny - let me know what you think.

Hand 1:
Blinds at 75-150
Villian makes it 450 from middle position, (3rd raise in 6 hands)
I flat call on the button with JJ (I don't raise as I plan on playing small pots early)
Flop comes 9 high with 2 rags,
Villian leads out for 600 (he's good enough to make continuation bets)
I raise to 1500 (7500 left behind),
Villian reraises to 3100 leaving 1500 behind (now the pot is approx 5600, opps)
Me????

Hand 2:
Blinds 100-200
Villian 11k
Me 18K

Villian raises in middle position to 600 (he's range is any A, any pocket pair, and king rag )
I reraise to 1500 on the CO with JJ.
Flop 10, 8, 7
Villian leads out for 3k,
I???

Any more info on hand 1 i.e. any history against this villain, how has he seen you playing? I ask because sometimes you see weird players making a silly re-steal of what looks like a steal by you of his c-bet, if you get my drift. And this hand is played very weirdly.

I also don't really understand the comment about playing small pots early on. JJ is worth raising here, I think (edit: on a re-read, a call is fine looking at the stack sizes).

In hand two, I think I just call (although it's getting to be a big chunk of your stack, so maybe not), but I wouldn't like having to call an all-in or a big bet on the turn when my hand more-than-likely hasn't improved. But he may slow down on the turn when you call, and you could then pick up a bluff by him on the river. TBH, I'm not really sure about this hand, but you could easily be ahead considering his range.

Ollieboy

Hand 1

With the raise in MP to early position, why not put in a reraise in here before the flop, 1 to isolated the player and two to find out if your JJ is any good. The reraise is very strong move on the flop and would get most players to laydown everything except AA/KK. He would only call with QQ if he puts you on JJ/1010, or he thinks your capable of a reraise on the flop because you thing his bet is a continuation bet.

I would rather reraise on the flop and get my information, by flat calling preflop any continuation bet on the flop will get you to drop your hand also with overcards.

Also, his reraise is telling you he has a made hand and your now price in at this stage and nearly have to call.

cardshark202

Hand 1: Just call the flop. The raise achieves little but makes him fold everything you beat.

Hand 2: Tough spot, I think call and shove turn.

The_Chopper

lenny_leonard wrote:

Any more info on hand 1 i.e. any history against this villain, how has he seen you playing? I ask because sometimes you see weird players making a silly re-steal of what looks like a steal by you of his c-bet, if you get my drift. And this hand is played very weirdly.

I also don't really understand the comment about playing small pots early on. JJ is worth raising here, I think (edit: on a re-read, a call is fine looking at the stack sizes).

In hand two, I think I just call (although it's getting to be a big chunk of your stack, so maybe not), but I wouldn't like having to call an all-in or a big bet on the turn when my hand more-than-likely hasn't improved. But he may slow down on the turn when you call, and you could then pick up a bluff by him on the river. TBH, I'm not really sure about this hand, but you could easily be ahead considering his range.

Villian in hand 1 has just started raising alot in middle to late position. He's making a continuation bet every time it's then checked to him or he's first to act. The villian here has actually replied in this post, I don't even think he remembers the hand

Hand 2 I was 50/50 whether I was ahead or not - looking back folding might be the correct option as there are better places to get chips with my stack size at that point

The_Chopper

cardshark202 wrote:

Hand 1: Just call the flop. The raise achieves little but makes him fold everything you beat.

Hand 2: Tough spot, I think call and shove turn.

Surely flat calling on the flop achieves little here. If a blank falls on the turn and he bets again, do I still flat call?

At the time of hand 1 I felt I should fold the flop,

Hand 2 I was convinced I was ahead

Ollieboy

The_Chopper wrote:

Villian in hand 1 has just started raising alot in middle to late position. He's making a continuation bet every time it's then checked to him or he's first to act. The villian here has actually replied in this post, I don't even think he remembers the hand

Hand 2 I was 50/50 whether I was ahead or not - looking back folding might be the correct option as there are better places to get chips with my stack size at that point

Hi Chopper, I do remember the hand and thats why I replied in the way I did to see what people thought of my thought process.

I was getting short and not in the best mood for this game, I had hit the flops in each of the earlier hands, in this hand I nearly laid down my QQ, but I than thought about it and knew you were able to read a continuation bet. I didnt expect you to come over so big and than I start putting you on AA/KK. I than figure you might have JJ or 1010 or just making a move as you knew I could laydown a hand if I felt I was behind, you had also made some great laydowns up to this.

I felt if you had AA/KK you would have reraised me preflop, so JJ was the only hand I could put you on and I felt sure I was ahead(80% anyway). So I decided to raise enough to make you call and get all the chips into the middle, hoping to see 1010 or JJ. I was relieved when you turn over JJ, but I gave those chips away as quick as I got them, so sorry about that....lol

The_Chopper

Ollieboy wrote:

Hi Chopper, I do remember the hand and thats why I replied in the way I did to see what people thought of my thought process.

I was getting short and not in the best mood for this game, I had hit the flops in each of the earlier hands, in this hand I nearly laid down my QQ, but I than thought about it and knew you were able to read a continuation bet. I didnt expect you to come over so big and than I start putting you on AA/KK. I than figure you might have JJ or 1010 or just making a move as you knew I could laydown a hand if I felt I was behind, you had also made some great laydowns up to this.

I felt if you had AA/KK you would have reraised me preflop, so JJ was the only hand I could put you on and I felt sure I was ahead(80% anyway). So I decided to raise enough to make you call and get all the chips into the middle, hoping to see 1010 or JJ. I was relieved when you turn over JJ, but I gave those chips away as quick as I got them, so sorry about that....lol

You had a good read on the whole hand and well played. If you had pushed all in after I reraised you I would have folded for 100% sure.

I know you remembered the hand, was only taking the mick

At that stage of the tourny I was playing quite well and was confident. I wouldn't have reraised there with anything as I had position.

That's twice you've gotten the better of me, we'll meet again

Ollieboy

The_Chopper wrote:

You had a good read on the whole hand and well played. If you had pushed all in after I reraised you I would have folded for 100% sure.

I know you remembered the hand, was only taking the mick

At that stage of the tourny I was playing quite well and was confident. I wouldn't have reraised there with anything as I had position.

That's twice you've gotten the better of me, we'll meet again

that was only 1 hand, you still last longer than me, but I look forward to the next time, olde wise one...lol