Dangerous Box Junction in Cork City

olearydc

Hi

There is a very bad Junction box on the wilton road in Cork city. Its the Juction between Wilton Gardens and the Wilton Road.

It was bad before when there were only two lanes, one lane towards Wilton and the other towards Denney's Cross. But now with the bus lane its gone from bad to bleeding dangerous with upwards of 1 crash a week.

I have been emailing the council for nearly 2 years now (Started in December 2005) and have had replies back from most of the people and the council have tried to improve the layout by making the yellow box juction bigger with better signs but these crashes are still happening. I have also over the last few months sent a photo when I have actually seen one, But normally its just the glass on the road or a smashed car next to my house that indicated that another crash happened.

This is the email I sent the first time


I feel I have to put pen to paper with regard to the disastrous road layout on the Wilton Road.
I am living just at the yellow box junction across from Wilton Gardens, and witness near misses on a daily basis, and then an actually crash nearly on a weekly basis.
We have spoken to Gardai from both Bishopstown and Togher stations and have written to the Traffic Depart at city hall, but to no avail.


We have a number of issues, which seem to converge at the yellow box junction
Last year there was only one lane going towards Denny’s Cross which only spilt into 2 once people had passed the Junction Box.
Accidents were happening then, when cars as they should, stopped at the start of the junction if not able to pass through but cars behind which could see the 2 lanes ahead if they wanted to turn Right at Dennehy’s Cross went over the solid white lane and then hit or ploughed into cars coming out of Wilton gardens, Because both parties were blind to each other. It was a happening on a regular occurrence with people who had gone over the white line being at fault.

Now we at a situation were there are now legitimately 2 lanes and still people are blind to each other.
We now have more issues with accidents happening on a weekly occurrence with numerous near misses. This could end in a fatality



Reasons why there are more accidents:

1. The bus lane is still being used by cars and if a car (blue) sees the black car is stationary (because of yellow box) will naturally come out if going towards Wilton shopping center. The green car is doing at least 30MPH, both cars cannot see each other due to the black car and we have a potentially nasty incident.
2. Green car in middle lane, indicates to go into inside lane, Blue car believes car indicating to go up Wilton Gardens and now we have the same situation as #1
3. Cars which are in middle lane, try and correctly go into inside lane (Bus lane) as arrows indicate before junction but because this has become a known black spot, other cars have gone into the bus lane from way above and won’t let these cars in. This has caused numerous traffic hold ups and a few acts of Road Rage
4. Outside rush hour, cars can be on inside and outside lanes and some have tried to outpace each outer to get into the correct lane after the yellow box junction. The speed has increased because of this.

We strongly believe that there is potential for a fatality if things are left as they are. At present I have seen numerous car crashes and have to console a number of people who have been involved in them, from the young to the old, from the people picking up the children from the primary school; I have personally tried to help out after the incident. We know about this area so we can be ultra careful, but we are sending you this mail in order to help the people who only find out the hard way.
Car owners then have to pay vast sums of money to get their cars fixed, pay out on insurance claims and lose their no claims bonus through no fault of their own let alone the time the Gardai have had to waste being called due to this complete mess, which incidental they agree is a disaster.


Do any other people have any ideas on what could be done here:

• Who to contact with regards this proplem?
• Whos at fault when a crash happens here (It Can't all be the drivers fault)?
• Any stories about this juction?

There was another crash yesterday, 1 young lady was crying her eyes out - Its not fair to her or others when there is a known issue here for 2 years...Any idea's..thanks again


EDIT

Did try to explain the situation in the email (badly! )..You might have to read it more then once to understand what I was trying to say, if you know the junction it might be easier

Wishbone Ash

There are several junction like that in Dublin, some with 3 lanes in each direction. The blue car would have to cross 3 lanes before making a right turn. I've never known it to be a major problem. Most motorists here seem to exit with caution, one lane at a time, checking the next lane before advancing further.


You could send a registered letter to the Chief Engineer responsible for junctions. That way, in the event of further accidents, they would know that you would have some proof that you had alerted them to the problem. You could also try your local County(City?) Councillors and TDs.

I feel I have to put pen to paper

In an E mail!!!

olearydc

Hi There Wishbone

I used to live in London where there were these types of box junctions as well. seemed grand and never a issue. Never did I see the amount of damage that is being caused here.

The differance with this one is that there is no space to edge out slowly to check the next line. The lanes are tight (where there were 2 lanes, there are now 3!!). If/When a car on the inside is not blocking the yellow box (they dont like giving space as the middle lane cars pull in around that point) and do give space to a car coming out of the secoundry road, the space is sometimes just barely big enough to come out.
The car coming out cannot see ANYTHING, even if it edges out slowly, the nose comes out a bit onto the 2nd lane, the car coming down at 30 mph on this lane can not move anywhere...bang!

I was putting on new tiles onto the roof of our house with my father..Scaffolding was up outside my door...you would not belive the amount of near misses we witnessed in only a few days with 1 big thump of a crash. during the rush hour, every 10 mins or so a screech of brakes and horns blasting and they were the lucky ones....

Wishbone -- I feel I have to put pen to paper --

Wishbone Ash

olearydc wrote:

The differance with this one is that there is no space to edge out slowly to check the next line

I see where you're coming from. Sounds very dodgy allright. The junctions I referred to have a fair bit of space.

(I wouldn't fancy exiting that junction in a JCB :eek:)

lostinsuperfunk

Yep, I know someone who has had a crash there. I suppose it could be fixed by traffic lights (maybe sensor controlled) or by banning right turns exiting Wilton Gardens (not much of a solution, really!).

This is slightly off-topic, but if the green car carries down Wilton Road, towards Dennehy's Cross, wishing to turn right into Magazine Road, it will encounter a strange traffic lights sequence at Dennehy's Cross. There is a right turning lane on Wilton Road, but there is no "right arrow" light, just the normal green light. When the light goes green, the oncoming traffic (city to Wilton direction) does not move for a while. This means the green car has time to safely turn right. This is great, but how is anyone supposed to know if they haven't seen it before? The first couple of times I was there I thought the first oncoming car had stalled so I just waited there.
It also might be a bit dangerous if several cars behind the green car assume they all can go right without giving way to the oncoming traffic.

Even more off-topic, has anyone noticed how the old Dennehy's garage has become a short cut to let people beat the lights at Dennehy's cross? Mainly used by people in Mercs and boy racers...

dmeehan

i think the main problem at this junction is motorists using the bus lane

people are using the bus lane to get in lane far too early
i think the best "solution" would be to change the lanes at the Denehys cross junction as follows:

left lane
current: left turns & straight
change this to left turns only

right lane
current: right turns only
change this to either srtaight & right turns or ban right turns altogether


the above changes would stop people getting "in lane" so early. the current situation is ridiculous where 90% (my own estimate, not a fact!!) of the traffic is forced into 1 lane and the remaining few get a lane all to themselves for right turns at the cross roads.

Lennoxschips

that hole wilton road is a mess. there are hardly any arrows to tell you which of the three lanes are in what direction

if you drive down there at night when it's empty and are unfamiliar with the road, you see three lanes all divided by broken lines, and have no clue how many lanes there are in each direction

dmeehan

also, I have NEVER seen a bus in that Bus Lane
is there actually a route that uses it????

Lennoxschips

the number 8 from bishopstown, i've been on it plenty of times

Happy Bertie

Lennoxschips wrote:

that hole wilton road is a mess. there are hardly any arrows to tell you which of the three lanes are in what direction

if you drive down there at night when it's empty and are unfamiliar with the road, you see three lanes all divided by broken lines, and have no clue how many lanes there are in each direction

I drove that road once when I visited Cork and I really did not know which direction of travel the middle lane was. In the US and many other countries they use a yellow line in the middle to distinguish the direction of traffic flow. I once suggested to the NRA to use a light green colour for this purpose on Irish roads. To many foreigners Ireland's 2-way roads could be confused as 2 lanes going in the same direction (like on a dual carriageway). There is really no way to know unless you familiar with the area.
Also what is the purpose of the yellow junction box? Isn't it always the rule that a vehicle should not enter the junction unless it can clear it on a green light. What a waste of yellow paint (which could be used to paint the dividing lines on our roads.)

olearydc

This is from a web site http://www.2pass.co.uk/boxjunction.htm

How to use a Box Junction

Box junctions make it possible to keep the flow of traffic moving and therefore keep the junction clear, by preventing traffic from stopping in the path of crossing traffic.




Our diagram above shows a box junction at traffic lights. You should enter the box junction if you wish to turn right and your path is blocked by oncoming traffic.

It is OK for you to wait on the yellow criss-cross providing your exit road is clear.
If you wait outside the box in these circumstances, you could fail your driving test.

When the way is clear move away smartly and do not cause an obstruction.
Be careful when queuing inside the box junction as you may not have time to clear the junction before the traffic lights change.

olearydc

I Agree about some of the comments above..

The idea of a bus lane was great...but its not working, Its a second lane for cars so its not working.

The idea about yellow paint is a great one, I've seen a few cars over the years coming up the middle lane (I'm sure they thought they could!!)
When it is only for going down...But not seen any accidents because of it, so far..thankfully

The bus lane is only used officail during Peak hours (maybe 4-5 hours a day)...And thats when the car's use it...Great idea

Lennoxschips

Happy Bertie wrote:

I drove that road once when I visited Cork and I really did not know which direction of travel the middle lane was. In the US and many other countries they use a yellow line in the middle to distinguish the direction of traffic flow. I once suggested to the NRA to use a light green colour for this purpose on Irish roads. To many foreigners Ireland's 2-way roads could be confused as 2 lanes going in the same direction (like on a dual carriageway). There is really no way to know unless you familiar with the area.
Also what is the purpose of the yellow junction box? Isn't it always the rule that a vehicle should not enter the junction unless it can clear it on a green light. What a waste of yellow paint (which could be used to paint the dividing lines on our roads.)

there should be a solid line dividing the traffic flow directions, that's the european standard i think.

Lennoxschips

olearydc wrote:

This is from a web site http://www.2pass.co.uk/boxjunction.htm

How to use a Box Junction

Box junctions make it possible to keep the flow of traffic moving and therefore keep the junction clear, by preventing traffic from stopping in the path of crossing traffic.




Our diagram above shows a box junction at traffic lights. You should enter the box junction if you wish to turn right and your path is blocked by oncoming traffic.

It is OK for you to wait on the yellow criss-cross providing your exit road is clear.
If you wait outside the box in these circumstances, you could fail your driving test.

When the way is clear move away smartly and do not cause an obstruction.
Be careful when queuing inside the box junction as you may not have time to clear the junction before the traffic lights change.

aren't all junctions with oncoming traffic like that, yellow lines or no yellow lines? that's what i thought anyway?

i've never understood what it's all about

Wishbone Ash

Lennoxschips wrote:

aren't all junctions with oncoming traffic like that, yellow lines or no yellow lines? that's what i thought anyway?

i've never understood what it's all about

If there is no yellow box a driver going straight ahead is legally entitled to enter and stop in the middle of the junction even if this causes inconvienence when the lights change (not very mannerly though). If there is a box they must wait until their exit is clear even though they may have a green light.

A vehicle turning right can enter a box and wait provided their exit is clear but must obviously give way to oncoming traffic. If their is no box they may enter the junction and wait regardless of whether their exit is clear or not.

Lennoxschips

aha, i see. all junctions are treated as box junctions over here then, even though there's no markings