Discussion of subtitles.

Playboy

I really hate the continual whining from people every time a movie from asia is remade. You dont have to watch the remake if you dont want to. The original is still there to be viewed whenever you wish ... the simple fact is that a large portion of western movie-goers dont like to watch subtitled movies. Remakes give a western audience the chance to enjoy some fantastic stories from another culture. Whats the problem? Infernal Affairs was a good movie .. the plot of the story was the best thing about it but I'm expecting Scorsese's movie to be far superior and I'm really looking forward to seeing it whether it's a remake or not.

Dont be at yourself

Playboy wrote:

I really hate the continual whining from people every time a movie from asia is remade. You dont have to watch the remake if you dont want to. The original is still there to be viewed whenever you wish ... the simple fact is that a large portion of western movie-goers dont like to watch subtitled movies. Remakes give a western audience the chance to enjoy some fantastic stories from another culture. Whats the problem? Infernal Affairs was a good movie .. the plot of the story was the best thing about it but I'm expecting Scorsese's movie to be far superior and I'm really looking forward to seeing it whether it's a remake or not.

THIS MAN IS RIGHT.

chump

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

THIS MAN IS RIGHT.

Different folks and all that, but I agree with him.

Memnoch

Playboy wrote:

I really hate the continual whining from people every time a movie from asia is remade. You dont have to watch the remake if you dont want to. The original is still there to be viewed whenever you wish ... the simple fact is that a large portion of western movie-goers dont like to watch subtitled movies. Remakes give a western audience the chance to enjoy some fantastic stories from another culture. Whats the problem? Infernal Affairs was a good movie .. the plot of the story was the best thing about it but I'm expecting Scorsese's movie to be far superior and I'm really looking forward to seeing it whether it's a remake or not.

I don't have a problem with remakes per say. I do have a problem with people heaping praise on it when the greatest thing about it is the original story line that... isn't even original since it's a remake.

The fact that a large portion of western movie-goers don't like to watch subtitled movies just displays their level of intellect, but I suppose big budget has always been about catering to the lowest common denominator.

p.s. I did enjoy watching the departed a lot

Memnoch

chump wrote:

Snob?

It was a good move, entertaining, well acted, enjoyable - that's what most people look for in a movie.

the move would have been nothing without the script

But that's brilliant, i'm a snob because I actually watch subtitled films and want credit given where it's due?

Whereas all the people who don't watch subtitled films are not snobs. I'm sure they have great reasons too for not wanting to watch them, sure whoever heard of one of those damn subtitled films being any good. Those asians can't make good films compared to the steep originality of hollywood!!!!1111!!1!

Dont be at yourself

How does watching a subtitled film make you more intellectual? It's this kind of attitude that I find absolutely abhorent in fans of, in particular, asian cinema. Hollywood is no more or less creative than the Japan, Korean or Hong Kong film industries. Just because you watch a subtitled Chow-Yun-Fat action fest, it doesn't make you any better than someone who watched the latest Bruce Willis one. Nor does watching and liking 2048 put you above those who enjoy Mullholland Drive.

In any thread that has ever appeared on boards.ie that referenced Asian cinema, there has always been a parade of dullards who want to show off how open-minded and indie they are by favouring asian cinema over hollywood, and seemingly automatically rejecting any attempt at a remake (or even, in this case, an "inspired by...") for no better reason than because its not subtitled or it features an A-List actor.

You said that a film would be nothing without it's script - true. But then the script for The Departed is not a translation of the Infernal Affairs script, it's a work that was based on the overall idea of Infernal Affairs. The actual script, casting, direction, editing, cinematography, score and actors' performances were all original, and all contributed immeasurably to the film's overall worth. To ignore those and just dismiss the film because it's not an original premise is ridiculous.

Memnoch

too many assumptions in your post to begin...

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

How does watching a subtitled film make you more intellectual? It's this kind of attitude that I find absolutely abhorent in fans of, in particular, asian cinema.

I never said watching a subtitled film makes you more intellectual. But refusing to watch films because they are subtitled certainly makes you less so.

Hollywood is no more or less creative than the Japan, Korean or Hong Kong film industries. Just because you watch a subtitled Chow-Yun-Fat action fest, it doesn't make you any better than someone who watched the latest Bruce Willis one. Nor does watching and liking 2048 put you above those who enjoy Mullholland Drive.

Sure hollywood can be pleanty creative, though there has been a dearth of good original films of late. I watch both asian and hollywood films and enjoy both so this point is kinda moot. Though I'd say i'm better than ppl who refuse to watch asian films simply because they are not hollywood

In any thread that has ever appeared on boards.ie that referenced Asian cinema, there has always been a parade of dullards who want to show off how open-minded and indie they are by favouring asian cinema over hollywood, and seemingly automatically rejecting any attempt at a remake (or even, in this case, an "inspired by...") for no better reason than because its not subtitled or it features an A-List actor.

so much bull**** in a single paragraph. I don't favour asian cinema over hollywood. There are good asian films and there are good hollywood films. I enjoy both and if an asian film like SPL turns out to be rubbish I'm happy to say so. I'm also not rejecting any remake. I watched the departed on friday night and quite enjoyed it. Though I lament the need for a remake, infernal affairs isn't that old a film and if so many people went to see the departed why couldn't they see the asian version instead? Intolerance or ignorance or both?

You said that a film would be nothing without it's script - true. But then the script for The Departed is not a translation of the Infernal Affairs script, it's a work that was based on the overall idea of Infernal Affairs. The actual script, casting, direction, editing, cinematography, score and actors' performances were all original, and all contributed immeasurably to the film's overall worth. To ignore those and just dismiss the film because it's not an original premise is ridiculous.

overall idea? Lol your kidding me. The script follows the story of IA pretty acurately apart from a few minor deviations and changes. Obviously they had to change things if they were making a film set in america rather than in Hong Kong and add in more features that appeal to american audiences.

I never ignored those things. I've said already that it's a good remake that does justice to the original. But all those things you mentioned would be meaningless without the original story, and that's where the real praise should lie.

Try less of the old foaming at the mouth based on petty assumptions next time.

Karl Hungus

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

Nor does watching and liking 2048 put you above those who enjoy Mullholland Drive.

I find this pleasantly ironic because David Lynch films are probably about as cult, if not moreso than Asian cinema.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I never said watching a subtitled film makes you more intellectual. But refusing to watch films because they are subtitled certainly makes you less so.

yeah, if you can't read and look at pretty pictures at the same time move to the states and buy yourself a season ticket for the WWE.

johnny_ultimate

The main reason I prefer subtitles is simple : the dubbing jobs are usually atrocious. Even in animated films - especially Studio Ghibli - I find the "Disney-ified" voices to be distracting and unsuitable. That's the reason I'm usually disapointed to find no subtitle option (Steamboy Im looking at you).

Dont be at yourself

Memnoch wrote:

too many assumptions in your post to begin...



I never said watching a subtitled film makes you more intellectual. But refusing to watch films because they are subtitled certainly makes you less so.

How so? There are many reasons for not wanting to watch sub-titled films. A lot is lost in rendering an actor's performance in a line of white lettering on the bottom of the screen - especially if the subtitling is badly paced or translated, as is often the case (I speak Japanese, and the difference in what is coming out of the actors' mouths and appearing in the subtitles is often staggering...), and so many people tend to avoid watching subbed films. Why should they, when there's plenty of decent english language films around?

And does poor eyesight make you less intellectual? :P

Sure hollywood can be pleanty creative, though there has been a dearth of good original films of late. I watch both asian and hollywood films and enjoy both so this point is kinda moot. Though I'd say i'm better than ppl who refuse to watch asian films simply because they are not hollywood

I watch and enjoy Hollywood and Asian cinema too, my dvd collection is split about 60-40 in favour of Hollywood, but I love lots of Asian cinema. But the view that Hollywood has had a "dearth of good original films" is a typical one, and in my view, misfounded. Hollywood has produced some great films every year - stuff like Crash, Hotel Rwanda, Donnie Darko, Training Day, there's plenty there if you look past the usual romcoms and blockbusters.

And you know, that's the same with Japanese cinema. Takeshi Miike is practically unknown in Japan, did you know? Japanese people pay money to see the same rubbish that Americans do, and the gems that slip through to over here generally arent widely watched in Asia either.

I watched the departed on friday night and quite enjoyed it. Though I lament the need for a remake, infernal affairs isn't that old a film and if so many people went to see the departed why couldn't they see the asian version instead? Intolerance or ignorance or both?

Infernal Affairs was a movie aimed at the asian market - and hence it is full of nuance and subtlety that is lost on a western audience. Is there anything wrong with remaking it with the aim of improving it for a western audience? This isn't a cynical cash-in aimed at your average blockbuster-goer anyway, it's a Scorcese film, boasting a cast comprised of some of the finest actors in Hollywood.

I never ignored those things. I've said already that it's a good remake that does justice to the original. But all those things you mentioned would be meaningless without the original story, and that's where the real praise should lie.

Sure, the original idea deserves much credit. However, imagine the same film, but directed by, produced by and starring the people who recently brought us Miami Vice? We'd have an entirely different film, and one that (probably, perhaps...) would be absolute rubbish.

Try less of the old foaming at the mouth based on petty assumptions next time.

What petty assumptions?

Karl Hungus

johnny_ultimate wrote:

That's the reason I'm usually disapointed to find no subtitle option (Steamboy Im looking at you).

That's strange, I watched it subtitled.

Karl Hungus

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

Hollywood has produced some great films every year - stuff like Crash, Hotel Rwanda, Donnie Darko, Training Day, there's plenty there if you look past the usual romcoms and blockbusters.

Donnie Darko, Hollywood? Independant film, surely.

I kinda get the feeling here that you're basically covering all American cinema with the "Hollywood" tag.

Dont be at yourself

OK, we'll ignore Donnie Darko - easily replaced by much of the output of Hollywood studios like Fox Searchlight, Miramax or Lionsgate... Or if they're too niche, stuff like Schindler's List, Memento...Fight Club...

But then much of the best Asian cinema is independent too - including stuff like Oldboy.

Which brings me neatly around to my point, that Western cinema is no better or worse than Asian cinema - we're just not as exposed to the asian dross as we are to that of Hollywood.

Karl Hungus

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

OK, we'll ignore Donnie Darko - easily replaced by much of the output of Hollywood studios like Fox Searchlight, Miramax or Lionsgate... Or if they're too niche, stuff like Schindler's List, Memento...Fight Club...

But then much of the best Asian cinema is independent too - including stuff like Oldboy.

Which brings me neatly around to my point, that Western cinema is no better or worse than Asian cinema - we're just not as exposed to the asian dross as we are to that of Hollywood.

Would it be too much nitpicking if I pointed out that Memento would also be a independant film?

I'll throw in and say that there have been Hollywood films lately that I've enjoyed a lot, such as Batman Begins, X-Men films and Pirates Of The Caribbean.

Anyway, I disagree. I think we're exposed to plenty of Asian dross, and I can think of dozens of by-the-numbers Asian horror movies that have been released by Tartan, anyone who's into the whole scene is certainly exposed to a lot of crap. I think I've been very outspoken about that on the Horror board though, and there's no denying the crap because I've been bored to ****ing tears by some of it.

Dont be at yourself

Anyway, I disagree. I think we're exposed to plenty of Asian dross, and I can think of dozens of by-the-numbers Asian horror movies that have been released by Tartan, anyone who's into the whole scene is certainly exposed to a lot of crap. I think I've been very outspoken about that on the Horror board though, and there's no denying the crap because I've been bored to ****ing tears by some of it.

The stuff released by Tartan is the tip of the ice-berg though - it gets a lot worse than by-the-numbers horror movies. And while you may disagree that we're not exposed to bad asian cinemas, do you acknowledge that asian cinema has just the same capacity to produce a turkey as a masterpiece as western cinema?

Karl Hungus

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

The stuff released by Tartan is the tip of the ice-berg though - it gets a lot worse than by-the-numbers horror movies. And while you may disagree that we're not exposed to bad asian cinemas, do you acknowledge that asian cinema has just the same capacity to produce a turkey as a masterpiece as western cinema?

I know, I just said Tartan for example, there's some awful garbage released by Arts Magic sometimes, that's just off the top of my head now. Do you have any more examples of worse films?

But anyway, that's an extremely difficult question to answer.

One could equate the whole arguement to a smaller scale, and just say for example take Disney and Ghibli. Now Disney has made some classics and memorable films, but also a whole load of turkeys, whereas Ghibli has consistantly come out with absolute fried gold. But then maybe that's not a fair representation?

As an aside to that though, maybe it's too much a personal taste thing? I'd probably say that their is on average better films made in Asia, and I could name a whole host of films to support this, but then you may not agree with my choices, and it could get into a whole personal taste thing right there.

So I probably can't give you the answer you want, all I can really say is that for me, there's been a lot better produced in Asia as of late.

Dont be at yourself

I know, I just said Tartan for example, there's some awful garbage released by Arts Magic sometimes, that's just off the top of my head now. Do you have any more examples of worse films?

But anyway, that's an extremely difficult question to answer.

One could equate the whole arguement to a smaller scale, and just say for example take Disney and Ghibli. Now Disney has made some classics and memorable films, but also a whole load of turkeys, whereas Ghibli has consistantly come out with absolute fried gold. But then maybe that's not a fair representation?

By choosing Ghibli, you have chosen perhaps Asia's most consistantly great studio, while in choosing Disney, you have chosen what is a very broad, and often hit and miss studio, so I would say that's an unfair comparison.

I've stopped buying Tartan and other labels DVD releases automatically, so cant judge films I've seen in relation to them. However, having lived in Japan for the past year, I've seen as many asian turkeys as american ones. Jet Li's Fearless (I think, perhaps a different name over here) would be one that stands out, as would Nihon Cinbotsu (Japan Is Sinking). Both big budgets, both as bad as Hollywood dross like The Day After Tomorrow etc.

As an aside to that though, maybe it's too much a personal taste thing? I'd probably say that their is on average better films made in Asia, and I could name a whole host of films to support this, but then you may not agree with my choices, and it could get into a whole personal taste thing right there.

So I probably can't give you the answer you want, all I can really say is that for me, there's been a lot better produced in Asia as of late.

Well, absoutely it's a personal thing. One man's Tanpopo is another man's Weekend at Bernie's!

garred

I can't understand how someone can give a film their full attention when it is subtitled. It does affect your viewing of a film. The Asian film industry being the key topic I suppose but no matter what the language if you have to constantly look down to read what is being said you are not experiencing the film, whether you miss facial expression, etc. There is nothing more annoying when you have to spend most of your time reading the subtitles during a large dialogue between 2+ actors and you miss the acting. Couple this with the fact that the subtitle does not always translate into actualy what has been said/meant, it does affect my viewing of a film.
There are many subtitled films that I thought were brilliant and a lot that I thought were crap.
I suppose it could be said if you want to read a film you'd get the book if you want to watch a film you get the movie. I would much prefer a dubbed film to a subtitled film. Anyone watching a subtitled film that can say the whole movie got their full attention is superhuman.

adonis

I think all of you are obsessed with asian cinema.
Subtitiled films come from every where in the non-english speaking world.
Thats a hugh amount of cinema and people (im not even going to try to guess how many) id say about 4 billion.
To exclude yourself from watching these movies just because they are subtitled is foolish and shows your lack of intelligence and lack of openness to other cultures.

sonic juice

I do not think subtitles deter the experience of the film,I mean you all read books and when you do you have a visual image of what is going on in your mind,simultaneous with the reading of the text .

Karl Hungus

garred wrote:

I can't understand how someone can give a film their full attention when it is subtitled. It does affect your viewing of a film. The Asian film industry being the key topic I suppose but no matter what the language if you have to constantly look down to read what is being said you are not experiencing the film, whether you miss facial expression, etc. There is nothing more annoying when you have to spend most of your time reading the subtitles during a large dialogue between 2+ actors and you miss the acting. Couple this with the fact that the subtitle does not always translate into actualy what has been said/meant, it does affect my viewing of a film.
There are many subtitled films that I thought were brilliant and a lot that I thought were crap.
I suppose it could be said if you want to read a film you'd get the book if you want to watch a film you get the movie. I would much prefer a dubbed film to a subtitled film. Anyone watching a subtitled film that can say the whole movie got their full attention is superhuman.

Funny enough, your stance on subtitled films inspired one of my Journal entries on this very subject.

Anyway, as for comments about being superhuman, to be honest with you, I'm far from it. I'm dyslexic, and I had a lot of problems in school because of this, but even I have no problem whatsoever with subtitles, so I can only assume that if you have a problem with subtitles, the problem lies solely with you.

But as for having to "Constantly look down" in order read subtitles, I have a fairly novel solution: Sit further away from the screen! Because you really must be a couple of inches from the screen if you actually have to look down.

garred

Read that blog entry, very good, did'nt think I could inspire anyone:)
Don't get me wrong I have watched and enjoyed many foreign/subtitled films but I stand by my point with regard subtitles. This is very evident when there is a lot of dialogue in a film. If you can honestly say you can fully experience a subtitled film, the whole film, the same way as say a dubbed film, you are superman in my books Karl.

Lochaber

Memnoch wrote:

I never said watching a subtitled film makes you more intellectual. But refusing to watch films because they are subtitled certainly makes you less so.

Mordeth wrote:

yeah, if you can't read and look at pretty pictures at the same time move to the states and buy yourself a season ticket for the WWE.

Hope there as some sarcasm here b/c I watch a lot of subtitled movies but I'd love a season ticket to the WWE... or at least tickets to all their shows here! anybody?

ShiverinEskimo

I disgaree with the point saying reading subtitles sacrifices your viewing of the acting. Our brains are more than capable of taking in moving pictures and text appearing in the same field of vision - I can drive and take in my speed limit, signage etc without ever not knowing what the car in front is doing etc. And as another poster speculated - while reading your brain is constantly analysing and forming images in your head - images which change constantly as the book provides further imagery.

I know so many people who refuse to watch films based on fact they are subtitled. I feel sorry for these people - never mind the asian films but even some German (Das Experiment, Downfall), French (Nikita, Amelie, Very Long Engagement), and Latin American (Motorcycle Diaries*) have provided some of my favourite films. I understand my examples above are hgely mainstream examples but they show that as long as you are open-minded enough to give subtitles a chance that Hollywood does not have a monopoly on good movies - and I feel this is where some of the resentment comes from. People who see originals and then hear of a Hollywood remake see it like someone who who is a Queen fan and hears G4 singing bohemian rhapsody.

Its like taking your favourite song and bastardising it only to hear some teenage runt who knows no better tell you that G4s new song is excellent...

I can see how it makes people's blood boil - lets face it - I know I'm very defensive of my favourite movies.

(*Yes - I'm aware this movie was funded by a substantial number of countries. Including the USA)