Hosting

Blaster99

So we had a happy little thread about hosting over in the broadband forum: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054997878 that ended up getting closed. I think it would be highly useful if we could have constructive discussions about hosting, within the general definition of constructive in a boards context.

I somewhat resent this thread being closed because the implication is that representives from local hosting companies can ensure that the topic is not debated which is most likely in the established companies' interest which is surely against boards's vendor-neutral philosophy?

Is it possible that we can find a way to open up the proper hosting forum and run it in a sensible manner? Sponge Bob did offer his time to run it in that thread and gave some hints on how to manage it. Perhaps it's time to give it another shot?

Sparky

There is a hosting forum, but there is a history behind the reason it was closed.

regi

We (as in the admins) debate this from time to time. They normally go like this:

<random admin> Hey, how about we reopen the web hosting forum?
... silence for about 10 seconds ...
<all in room> ho ho guffaw etc

Seriously, we could open it but we'd need to ban most hosting companies from posting to it.

miju

i was going to suggest that in the interests of fairness im sure the companies wouldn't mind that....then i though about shilling and how hosting was before......

shame though would be nice to see it reopened , perhaps get a few mini hitlers in to strictly police it........but do you want the hassle???????????

Talliesin

I think at least some of the admins are still on the Open mailing list. This pretty much guarantees that they'll not think that having the hosting forum would be a good idea. Unless maybe all the hosting companies got banned from Open for a while.

Or of course they all stopped constantly sniping at each other childishly [pauses to giggle to himself at suggesting such a deeply unlikely thing would be feasible enough to plan for].

Rollo Tamasi

I would like to see the reopening of the web hosting forum if it can be properly moderated.

ecksor

To me that sounds like wanting to see a crowd of angry cats if they could be properly herded.

steve-hosting36

I think, to be fair, most of the 'mature' hosting community is well behaved. Policing a focurm is quite difficult, but has been achieved in the UK - www.forum2.co.uk or in the ubiquitous www.webhostingtalk.com.

Simple rules, clearly explained and ruthlessly moderated would keep the forum in check.

Ideally, it would be a place where users could debate and discuss requirements and experiences, and where hosts would only post in response to a query and refrain from talking about or to each other (that should be a bannable offence).

A concern of course would be that some of the boards admins are now in the gainful employ of a host.... makes running an impartial forum somewhat difficult.

The Corinthian

steve-hosting36 wrote:

Simple rules, clearly explained and ruthlessly moderated would keep the forum in check.

I agree but this already existed - indeed some of the more ruthless moderation upset a few people. I would however add that it need far more than two mods, and probably needs a private ‘Hosting Mods’ sub-forum for consultation between mods.

A concern of course would be that some of the boards admins are now in the gainful employ of a host.... makes running an impartial forum somewhat difficult.

In fairness, you didn’t seem to mind back when the Web Hosting board was open and they were employed in your hosting company.

Seriously, it’s going to be very difficult to get moderators who are both ‘in the know’ enough to deal with the politics and completely without some potentially compromising connection.

On which note and for the record; I’m on friendly personal terms (or at least I think so) with all of the major hosts (excluding the telcos) in Ireland. I share an apartment with one, I do my Irish hosting with a different one, a number of them have been, and in some cases still are, clients and I even do a bit of reseller hosting on the side that has nothing to do with any of them.

So, for me being impartial is actually a necessity as I can get away with being a bollocks, as long as I’m impartial as it is favouritism and not ruthless bannings that engender real resentments.

Anyhow, that's my2c.

steve-hosting36

The Corinthian wrote:

I would however add that it need far more than two mods, and probably needs a private ‘Hosting Mods’ sub-forum for consultation between mods.

In fairness, you didn’t seem to mind back when the Web Hosting board was open and they were employed in your hosting company.
.

Employees being mods is one thing, but given the admin in questions role in that host, it is akin to me, Michele, or even Eoin Costello being an admin/mod

Agree on the sub-forum, and a rigorous charter. TBH, I think the community of boards users lost a useful resource when it was closed. I also think the hosts have 'moved on' in terms of the pettiness that existed a few years ago.

The Corinthian

steve-hosting36 wrote:

Employees being mods is one thing, but given the admin in questions role in that host, it is akin to me, Michele, or even Eoin Costello being an admin/mod

Fair point.

I also think the hosts have 'moved on' in terms of the pettiness that existed a few years ago.

LOL. I'm on the Open list too Steve and I wouldn't agree that this is the case - and I don't mean you on this occasion

steve-hosting36

:0 Well, some of us have moved on anyway I even 'like' Michele these days (eeep, don't tell him I said that )

Moriarty

In any case, broadband wasn't the place for that thread.

Not that there is a place for it at the moment.. but.. yeah..

watty

If the Hosting people are more mature now why did the thread have to get closed?

I wonder why Sponge Bob started it?

philologos

I'd personally like to see this forum re-opened... I know a good bit about web hosting and would like an open place to discuss it on boards (since I like boards too obviously )

cgarvey

The admin (Regi in this case, let's stop beating around the bush), isn't directly involved in the moderation of the forums, so his employer status is irrelevant, IMO. I've never seen him to post/comment/moderate that would even suggest that he would use his position against a competitor. If he was so inclined, then he'd have banned most of the hosters here a long time ago!!

The key is that moderation is transparent and according to a well worded charter. Forming such a charter will take some effort (and perhaps some discussion/input from the hosters as well. The existing charter is entirely inadequate and much too subjective.

Like The Corinthian says, getting someone to moderate the forum that will have a decent bit of field knowledge that is completely impartial will be tough/impossible, so it's down to wider audience acceptance and a clear charter, and perhaps more mods to give better coverage.

My €0.02
.cg

Blaster99

Alrightie then, what do we need to get this thing off the ground?

A charter and a moderator or two?

The Corinthian

cgarvey wrote:

The admin (Regi in this case, let's stop beating around the bush), isn't directly involved in the moderation of the forums, so his employer status is irrelevant, IMO. I've never seen him to post/comment/moderate that would even suggest that he would use his position against a competitor. If he was so inclined, then he'd have banned most of the hosters here a long time ago!!

I can see where Steve is coming from, however I would also agree with you. I’ve never seen Regi interfere with commercial threads so as to benefit a company he worked for or was a director of. I don’t believe he would.

At the end of the day it comes down to the moderators rather than the admins whether or not such a forum is impartial or not as it is they and not actually the admins who would carry out the moderation. Additionally it would be very unlikely that any admin would exert a preference as this would probably be treated with some distain by the other admins - yes, they do disagree.

TBH, if he or another Admin were to abuse their position it would be very obvious, very quickly, and then the entire forum would lose any and all credibility as a result.

Gordon

Blaster99 wrote:

Alrightie then, what do we need to get this thing off the ground?

A charter and a moderator or two?

Yes! That's all we need! It's as simple as that!

Judging by your complete grasp of the situation, and digestion of this thread - I suggest that you should be, at least, one of the 'moderator or two' moderators that is needed for the new and improved Hosting forum.

Actually, since you're the new mod of the forum - how about posting your suggestion for the charter up? Ah go on.

cgarvey

And underneath your OTT sarcasm, is that a factual answer as well? I.e. if we come up with a charter and extra bodies to help moderation, then it'll be reopened? I ask, because I'm unsure of whether or not SMod means you can re-open it, so I'm sorry if it sounds like a dig when I ask.

.cg

Gordon

Not sure cgarvey tbh. Only the Admins have power over forum creation/de-creation and mis-creation.

However, I think that if a great deal of thought goes into a possible charter and a decent input from people seriously interested in it, and interested in moderating it seriously - it would certainly speed things along. Whether it would be speeding to non-existance or existance, at least it would be getting there quicker.

Afaiu, it's not going to be reopened unless there is an exemplary case put forward for it. However, I'm just paraphrasing what I have read, being a smod my understanding is as much as the mods'.

philologos

I personally think it should go back but it has a long and horrible history and I don't think many are ready to put up with a repeat of that.

Blaster99

I have roughly 0 interest in Boards politics and its power hierarchy so I don't really know what an smod, mod, admin is or who is what. Before I spend time on a reformed charter I'd like to get some reassurance from whoever makes the decisions around here that the forum will be re-opened.

Asok

I believe what gordon was trying to say was "Put forward a draft charter and we will maybe think about it"

cgarvey

Hardly rewarding. Given that Blaster is the one investing time into it surely he's entitled to at the very least "we'll probably reopen it if there's a decent charter"?

ecksor

I don't see anything to suggest a deviation from the position that myself or regi have represented on here. We'll always listen to ideas.

steve-hosting36

I'm sure a few hosters and interested parties could put a little work into a new charter. Let me know if you need any assistance blaster99

philologos

I'll be willing to assist if needed just PM me with what you have

Blaster99

I've taken bits of the original charter and some very good bits from Web Hosting Talk.

The Web Hosting forum serves as a resource for people seeking advice on hosting and related issues. This is not the forum for issues around how to build a site in the first place.

Forum Rules:

• If you have an issue with the service you are receiving from a hosting company, contact their often excellent support team first to get it resolved. Threads that amount to tech support will be removed.
• You may not use discussions to recommend, praise, or belittle other products or services, or any company; without first hand experience of those products or services. This includes companies recommending other companies.
• You may not publish or discuss any information regarding your product or services, or future (possible) products or services, or any product or services you are, or have been, associated with. This includes, but not limited to suggesting your own services, or services of partners, clients, employers or friends.
• You may not post any messages that are commercial by nature.
• You may not post any message that directs others to any pages at your own commercial domain, including informational pages. A commercial domain is defined as a site that receives any type of income or links to any income producing properties.
• You may not direct others to contact you regarding your product or services or future (possible) products or services, or any product or service you are, or have been, associated with.
• You may not solicit the membership for feedback or suggestions on your product or services.
• You may not solicit users for any project or purpose external to the forum; public, private, or commercial. Most importantly our member base is not a resource to be "mined" by individuals, groups, or businesses, for profit or not for profit.
• You may only discuss details about your company and/or product offerings when the thread starter or poster has made direct reference to your company and stated something untrue or misleading, or something which clearly needs clarifying. The response must be in direct reference to the point discussed only and contain no added promotional information and/or fluff.
• Public posts debating these rules and/or moderators' enforcement of such, will be removed. We encourage feedback however and invite you to use the Feedback Forum if you have any questions or concerns.

The Corinthian

Blaster99 wrote:

If you have an issue with the service you are receiving from a hosting company, contact their often excellent support team first to get it resolved. Threads that amount to tech support will be removed.

There’s no need to be sycophantic - whether hosting companies have “excellent support team” or not is irrelevant, gives the poster an excuse to post if the support team is not excellent and makes an official value judgement to the quality of service out there that Boards should not be making. The point is that Boards is not the technical support for any of these hosting companies and not to be used to get speedier support simply because you reckon (often quite rightly) that posting publicly will get you seen to faster.

You may only discuss details about your company and/or product offerings when the thread starter or poster has made direct reference to your company and stated something untrue or misleading, or something which clearly needs clarifying. The response must be in direct reference to the point discussed only and contain no added promotional information and/or fluff.

How you’ve laid this out - at the end - is a little confusing, as it appears to contradict earlier stated prohibitions.

Personally, I was always of the opinion that hosters were welcome to pimp themselves if it was requested by others and was not a ‘bidding war’. That is to say someone asking “does anyone in Ireland do Ruby/JSP/Adult/whatever hosting” and hosters saying they did is OK, but someone asking “who’ll give me the cheapest deal” is not as it is simply asking for trouble. Given this, an eye will have to be kept out for shills in this area; someone asking “does anyone in Ireland do X hosting” one week after a particular host launches or revamps the service, should get nuked without mercy.

The same with reviews, if some (not hosts) are either happy or unhappy with a service then they should probably be allowed to voice their opinions - as long as they announce what domains they host. The reason for this is that it weeds out most of the shills that will appear from time to time.

steve-hosting36

I agree, also, if someone posts a review, the host in question should have the right to verify the review is from a real customer and a right of response.

watty

I think it is a good start.

Blaster99 wrote:

If you have an issue with the service you are receiving from a hosting company, contact their often excellent support team first to get it resolved. Threads that amount to tech support will be removed.

Remove the bold bit. It's irrelevent.
Add something like this.
* The Moderator's decisons and actions are absolute and final. They do not need to make sense to you.

WizZard

I would suggest a catch all "Making the natives restless" clause too

After Hours Charter wrote:

Making the natives restless
- This is a catch-all rule for general trolling, bitching and similar. Certain posters have an ability to piss off large quanties of regulars on here. If a moderator feels that said poster is doing this intentionally or is the cause of the mess, then the poster can and will be banned. If this poster was being goaded by others, then they'll be the ones getting banned. This rule will hopefully put an end to the bitching going on in here of late.

Blaster99

Seeing as there is no discernable decision making process it's difficult to see how this can be brought forward in a sensible manner.

Here's some comments on the comments:

The Corinthian wrote:

There’s no need to be sycophantic

Accepted, will remove the offending material.

The Corinthian wrote:

How you’ve laid this out - at the end - is a little confusing, as it appears to contradict earlier stated prohibitions.

Accepted, will reword or restructure.

The Corinthian wrote:

Personally, I was always of the opinion that hosters were welcome to pimp themselves if it was requested by others and was not a ‘bidding war’. That is to say someone asking “does anyone in Ireland do Ruby/JSP/Adult/whatever hosting” and hosters saying they did is OK, but someone asking “who’ll give me the cheapest deal” is not as it is simply asking for trouble.

Rejected.

Boards is a vendor-neutral environment and works at its very best when the community contributes. There's no reason to allow vendors to pimp. I don't think your example is realistic either, as someone who's asking for advice will want a subjective response to indicate which is the best choice.

steve-hosting36 wrote:

if someone posts a review, the host in question should have the right to verify the review is from a real customer and a right of response.

Rejected. That right is provided in the charter.

watty wrote:

I think it is a good start.

Bonus points to watty.

watty wrote:

Remove the bold bit. It's irrelevent.

Accepted.

watty wrote:

Add something like this.
* The Moderator's decisons and actions are absolute and final. They do not need to make sense to you.

Rejected. I did consider adding something like it but I can't really the value of it. It's pretty clear what the role of a moderator is.

WizZard wrote:

I would suggest a catch all "Making the natives restless" clause too

Rejected. I appreciate the point but that sort of stuff is best left to the discretion of the moderators and is difficult to regulate meaningfully in a charter.

The Corinthian

Blaster99 wrote:

I don't think your example is realistic either, as someone who's asking for advice will want a subjective response to indicate which is the best choice.

Nothing subjective about it - either a host does X or not. Questions that solicit opinions rather than facts are another matter.

BreadBoard

I'd just like to make a quick post and say that I'd like to see the Web Hosting forum re-opened too.

Blaster99

Here's an update based on the above. I've softened the stance towards vendors somewhat. May I suggest we leave it like this to get the forum up and running and if needed we can tweak it?

----

The Web Hosting forum serves as a resource for people seeking advice on hosting and related issues. This is not the forum for issues around how to build a site in the first place.

Forum Rules:

• If you have an issue with the service you are receiving from a hosting company, contact their support team first to get it resolved. Threads that amount to tech support will be removed.
• You may not use discussions to recommend, praise, or belittle other products or services, or any company; without first hand experience of those products or services. This includes companies recommending other companies.
• You may only discuss details about your company and/or product offerings when the thread starter or poster has made direct reference to your company. The response must be in direct reference to the point discussed only and contain no added promotional information and/or fluff.
• You may not post any messages that are commercial by nature.
• You may not post any message that directs others to any pages at your own commercial domain, including informational pages. A commercial domain is defined as a site that receives any type of income or links to any income producing properties.
• You may not direct others to contact you regarding your product or services or future (possible) products or services, or any product or service you are, or have been, associated with.
• You may not solicit the membership for feedback or suggestions on your product or services.
• You may not solicit users for any project or purpose external to the forum; public, private, or commercial. Most importantly our member base is not a resource to be "mined" by individuals, groups, or businesses, for profit or not for profit.
• Public posts debating these rules and/or moderators' enforcement of such, will be removed. We encourage feedback however and invite you to use the Feedback Forum if you have any questions or concerns.

watty

Now all you need to do is send crates of wine etc to the admins to bribe them to open the Forum.
I know where one is.

Random

+1 for reopening the forum.

watty

I don't think we get to vote. I think it is a matter of laying in razor wire to keep out flamers and bribing the admins to open it

koneko

I think those would have to be pretty considerable bribes tbh.

That or locking DeV away until the forum is created so he can't do anything about it

DeVore

Regi writes:
<random admin> Hey, how about we reopen the web hosting forum?
... silence for about 10 seconds ...
<all in room> ho ho guffaw etc


This is about the most accurate thing I have read in this thread. This actually regularly happens and it never gets old.

If the hosting companies really desperately need somewhere to communicate I'm sure they can eek out some HD space and an old copy of vBulletin.

Makes you think about why they so desperately want to be here...... hmmm.

DeV.

WhiteWashMan

its an insidious plot to be... erm... nefarious.

or vice versa.

Blaster99

Yeah it's a very devious plot that we've worked on for years. We're really all clevered disguised representatives of hosting companies. It's a long game; I've had to spew out over 2,000 posts of dubious quality just to seem credible when it came to suggesting that the hosting forum should be reopened.

Places like Web Hosting Talk work quite well so probably not worth wasting more time on the topic.

cgarvey

Blaster99 wrote:

probably not worth wasting more time on the topic.

I think you're right, especially with that level of arrogance as your only thanks for your efforts

Cloud

Thread closed.

The Sweeper

/me whispers: PSSST!! JB!!! HIT THE LOCKITY BUTTON!

Beruthiel

Cloud wrote:

Thread closed.

Would you like me to assist you there oh benevolent Overlord?