A KK query from a Poker Novice

TangledUpinBlue

Last Monday in PPP feeder to the weekly Grand Final for Irish Open. Down to 2tables. I have pretty good reads on all the table (9 handed) except for villain who has just joined and 1 other. From memory, I have c20/25 times the blinds which are 150/300 (no more buy ins). Villain has a little less than me but not much say c20 times the blinds. He is in UTG+1. I am in MP with 4 to act after me, 2 with low stacks < 7 times the blinds, 1 loose cannon, and 1 no read. Overall I am pretty comfortable and have been acquiring chips with a wide range of hands.

Villain goes allin. The other players ahead of me fold. I am dealt KK. What is my move?

Will post my action and the outcome later tonight.

For info, I am playing in these feeders for experience. Have got to 4 x GFs out of 5 weeks, and have been finishing in top 4 in a little under 1 in 3. Doing all right but making some real howlers post flop which is probably the biggest leak in my game.

Ste05

You have to call here, an unknown will do this with more than just AA, making it a call. It's just unlucky if he had AA this particular time.

Norwich Fan Rob

its unlikely villain will open jam for 20bb+ with AA from utg+1 (hes a moron if he does).
Therefore , u are ahead, and villian will have 22 outs with a hand like TT, JJ or 3 outs with a hand like AQ, AK a lot here.
Its an insta call in a regular tourney, as this is a sat, and u have a large stack, and so does he, u might want to reference the number of seats available, if say 10 seat and only 18 left, u will qualify anyway, so dont risk it, but if only 3 of 4 seats, or less, and work to do, its a must call.

bubbleking

insta call as said already if he open pushes with aces hes an idiot. you are most definately ahead at this point but this is PPP so you probably* sucked out.

*personal opinion that chances of a player getting dogged are higher on PPP than anywhere else in the world.......ever.

phantom_lord

Call, and hope he's pushing a middle pocket pair hoping to pick up the blinds or something like that. Can't imagine this is how many would play aces.

Scotty #

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

its unlikely villain will open jam for 20bb+ with AA from utg+1 (hes a moron if he does).

Is this very logic not a good reason to push in EP with AA?

EDIT: I'm specifically talking about the late stages of MTT.

Hectorjelly

Scotty # wrote:

Is this very logic not a good reason to push in EP with AA?

EDIT: I'm specifically talking about the late stages of MTT.

I really wouldnt expect someone to fold AA utg either; that doesnt make it a good play

dvdfan

With your stack in the latter stages of a tourney i would fold for a couple of reasons:

1) A good technical player would not go all in preflop at that stage of the tourney unless he was been blinded out.

2) A good techinical player would not try a semi bluff with a middle pair or even go all in with AK on a table he has absolutely no read on the other players (hes just joined the table) with the position he holds with his stack just to collect the measly blinds of 150/300 when he has 20 times that.

If he was trying to steal the blinds 1000 raise would be more reasonable.

So you can rule out he has a good understanding of poker and is making a bad move. So what would i put him on, maybe either AA,QQ or JJ unlikely KK since you have the other 2, with that in mind and considering there is a good few stacks under 7,000 and 4 to act after me i would fold because the small stacks may be getting desperate and if 1 or 2 of them join all in your pair of kings chances would decrease. (Just as im typing my kings just got whacked by A5)

With your position there would be plenty more opportunities IMHO.

Edit/ Of course youve 30 seconds to compute all this in your brain

Goodluck2me

Hectorjelly wrote:

I really wouldnt expect someone to fold AA utg either; that doesnt make it a good play

he wont get all your chips from folding them. jamming isnt all that bad a play for the said reason, but at 150-300 its still horrible, at 1-2 its bad but not quite as much.

Goodluck2me

dvdfan wrote:

With your position there would be plenty more opportunities IMHO.

Edit/ Of course youve 30 seconds to compute all this in your brain

all your chips, preflop you have KK, what more do you want?

phantom_lord

goodluck2me wrote:

all your chips, preflop you have KK, what more do you want?

Pocket aces

Scotty #

Hectorjelly wrote:

I really wouldnt expect someone to fold AA utg either; that doesnt make it a good play

Yes but what makes it such a bad play?? I'm not condoning the move I'm just curious why it would be so bad to push in this scenario. OP said villain had 20xBB so not a massive stack (I presume). He's presumed to have a weak(er) hand because he's pushed in EP. A 3x or 4x raise from EP is supposed to represent a strong hand ain't it. Should he check in the hope of a raise?

dvdfan

TangledUpinBlue wrote:

Will post my action and the outcome later tonight.

So what was the hand

Mellor

Similar hand happened to me last tuesday. DIT student game.
7 handed, its folded to the villian in late position, he is last before the dealer i think, he makes it 2400, blinds 600. Dealer folds. I have about 18k in the SB and look down and find KK. He has been playing tight so I know he has a big hand, he also mentioned something about waiting for aces a while ago and his total stack is now down about 5600. I put him all in for 4200 more, BB folds.
He insta-calls and flips over Aces and i cringe

Flop comes three blanks.
Turn King
River King

TangledUpinBlue

For what it is worth, I folded (I know, wussy). The loose (or so I thought) player next to me called with JJ. The villain had 77 and hit his set on the river to beat the caller. But there was a K on the flop so I would have had trips as well. Anyway thats results orientated.

Thanks for the advice. I still cant figure out in my mind whether I made the right choice and it bugged me for the rest of the tourney. I eventually made a ridiculous post flop decision on the final table which knocked me out and, on reflection, I had not put the hand behind me and moved on

Marcom

Personally i think its a bad decision to let that go. Only one starting hand beats you, even if he has AA you have 5 opportunities to outdraw him and you could potentially take a player out of the tournament. With KK there is always the fear a lower hand will beat you but you can only get your chips in ahead...

Norwich Fan Rob

Its such a clear call, he almost never has AA here, most likely AK or a middle pair, his jams states he has a hand he doesnt want to see a flop with.

By pushing with AA here, u are losing a LOT of EV, as people will often fold the likes of AQ, AK, 99 ,TT..........make a decent raise, and a hand like AK will often come over the top of u, or else just call and go broke on a K high flop, give them a chance to make a big mistake.
By pushing, u also take away the chance of someone making a re steal against u.

There are numerous reasons why an open push here with AA is awful play.