A tricky call.... and an all out bluff

jimbling

Hand1:

Don't know a huge amount about the villian. He is a decent player and quite aggressive.

The Family Stone 10474769-91250 Holdem No Limit $5/$10
[Oct 2 21:08:59] : Hand Start.
[Oct 2 21:08:59] : Seat 1 : -erdnase- has $715
[Oct 2 21:08:59] : Seat 2 : Niteingale has $1,288.64
[Oct 2 21:08:59] : Seat 3 : jimmbling has $550
[Oct 2 21:08:59] : Seat 4 : -alias- has $747
[Oct 2 21:08:59] : Seat 5 : Quasi123 has $3,043.50
[Oct 2 21:08:59] : Seat 6 : Mitt-Mitt has $518.89
[Oct 2 21:08:59] : -erdnase- is the dealer.
[Oct 2 21:09:00] : Niteingale posted small blind.
[Oct 2 21:09:01] : jimmbling posted big blind.
[Oct 2 21:09:01] : Game [91250] started with 6 players.
[Oct 2 21:09:01] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Oct 2 21:09:01] : Seat 3 : jimmbling has Jd Jh
[Oct 2 21:09:03] : -alias- folded.
[Oct 2 21:09:04] : Quasi123 folded.
[Oct 2 21:09:05] : Mitt-Mitt folded.
[Oct 2 21:09:08] : -erdnase- called $10 and raised $25
[Oct 2 21:09:11] : Niteingale folded.
[Oct 2 21:09:15] : jimmbling called $25 and raised $100
[Oct 2 21:09:18] : -erdnase- called $100
[Oct 2 21:09:18] : Dealing flop.
[Oct 2 21:09:18] : Board cards
[Oct 2 21:09:58] : jimmbling bet $160
[Oct 2 21:10:02] : -erdnase- called $160 and raised $320

Your move?



Hand2:
I think this is one of my faults... I put someone on a hand and I always think I can make him fold . Would you have folded if you were villian?

Note: This guy has no info on me. It's about the 5th hand, and I have won one pot via a pf raise-continuation.

Stir Crazy 10474917-72932 Holdem No Limit $3/$6
[Oct 2 18:52:51] : Hand Start.
[Oct 2 18:52:51] : Seat 1 : CashGalore has $802.48
[Oct 2 18:52:51] : Seat 2 : baron0118 has $501.50
[Oct 2 18:52:51] : Seat 3 : jimmbling has $479.75
[Oct 2 18:52:51] : Seat 4 : doctpoker has $426
[Oct 2 18:52:51] : Seat 5 : ElGringoo has $476.75
[Oct 2 18:52:51] : Seat 6 : RonanSully has $115.68
[Oct 2 18:52:51] : CashGalore is the dealer.
[Oct 2 18:52:51] : baron0118 posted small blind.
[Oct 2 18:52:52] : jimmbling posted big blind.
[Oct 2 18:52:52] : Game [72932] started with 6 players.
[Oct 2 18:52:52] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Oct 2 18:52:52] : Seat 3 : jimmbling has 6d 7s
[Oct 2 18:52:54] : doctpoker folded.
[Oct 2 18:52:58] : ElGringoo called $6 and raised $6

At this point I put the guy on AA. If I have no info on a player, I will almost always assume AA/KK here. I know some people do this with a much wider range, but majority not.

[Oct 2 18:52:59] : RonanSully folded.
[Oct 2 18:53:01] : CashGalore called $12
[Oct 2 18:53:03] : baron0118 called $9
[Oct 2 18:53:38] : jimmbling called $6
[Oct 2 18:53:38] : Dealing flop.
[Oct 2 18:53:38] : Board cards [6c 4d 4h]
[Oct 2 18:53:40] : baron0118 checked.

At this point I can play the hand a huge number of ways (including folding). I know he still has me beaten, but the board is dangerous. I decide to bet out.

[Oct 2 18:53:45] : jimmbling bet $24
[Oct 2 18:53:49] : ElGringoo called $24
[Oct 2 18:53:51] : CashGalore folded.
[Oct 2 18:53:53] : baron0118 folded.
[Oct 2 18:53:53] : Dealing turn.
[Oct 2 18:53:53] : Board cards [6c 4d 4h Jh]

I now decide to go down the check-raise route.... perhaps I'm just confusing the matter.

[Oct 2 18:53:59] : jimmbling checked.
[Oct 2 18:54:03] : ElGringoo bet $30
[Oct 2 18:53:40] : jimmbling called $30 and raised $60

I know this is a small check-raise.. but was really trying to push the idea of the 4. Thats probably the mistake right... He probably reckons id be trying to disguise it if I did have the 4.....

[Oct 2 18:53:43] : ElGringoo called $60
[Oct 2 18:53:43] : Dealing river.
[Oct 2 18:53:43] : Board cards [6c 4d 4h Jh 7h]

Whats your move?? Do you give up, or try and push him. Are you already certain this guy doesnt believe you. And if not, what do you think is the right amount to get him to fold the hand.

spectre

Hand 1: Looks like an easy fold

Hand 2: Generally, players who open min-raise with Aces cannot fold them. I would advise a fold but I know that if I got myself in this situation I would most likely fire again for 180

fuzzbox

Hand 1 - easy fold - and I most likely dont make it 100 preflop when he reraises me - he has AA/KK here a lot and he is not folding often.

Hand 2 - open minraise is not always AA/KK - min REraise is usually AA/KK though. Check fold the river - dont check/raise the turn, and just check/fold the turn when he calls your flop lead.

valor

never, ever try and get a donk off aces. as John_kane would put it, its suicide

cardshark202

Jimbling,

Don't take this the wrong way but having seen a few of your recent threads I recommend you move down levels unless you can afford to lose a few k.

Norwich Fan Rob

Ive started playing 5/10 on tribeca as my main game since Sunday, and its WAY softer than betfair £2/5, to say the least.
Ive also played with a couple of the guys in your HHs, and trying to get them to lay down anything is seriously -EV imo.

The first one, i almost never re raise to 100 pre with JJ, as basically u going to need a set most often to win a big pot there if called pre.
(although yesterday i did see 2 guys get all in for about $600 pre with 44 and 77).

The 2nd one, if u think he has aces (and he may very well not), 67 is a good hand to play to bust him, but u really dont want to play a big pot when u just hit the 6.

2 hands for amusement i played in the last 2 days on this 5/10.

I made it 30 on button with JT, 1 caller, flop comes JT5, he checks i bet 65, he calls, turn a 6, he checks, i push and he has 300 behind, so obviously calls with Q6.

Another i have AK, make it 40, 1 caller, flop A22, he checks, i bet 65, he moves all in for 800 !!!!!!, lmao, i call in a shot, he has KK, unreal.
(only for this damn 1 outer id be well up last 2 days instead of just a few hundred).

Flushdraw

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

Ive started playing 5/10 on tribeca as my main game since Sunday, and its WAY softer than betfair £2/5, to say the least.

I was watching your table for a bit last night NFR and youre spot on there! One hand that springs to mind is ( bit sketchy on details ). A raise to 35 UTG, you call, a reraise to 145 by SB, you both call.

Flop comes J 5 3 or similar

BB bets 290, UTG goes all-in for 435, u fold, BB calls....wait for it...

BB shows A 10 and UTG shows A Q

Ace high wins a 1350 pot lol..crazy!

Norwich Fan Rob

i remember that hand, those 2 were getting all in with all kinds of junk, i folded the best hand (TT)

i will be multi tabling this pretty much exclusively for the next couple of weeks and see how it goes.

bubbleking

hand 1: rarely reraise 4 times a raise with pocket jacks you are most likely behind unless your facing AK.

hand 2: never try to get a donk to lay down aces

Flushdraw

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

i remember that hand, those 2 were getting all in with all kinds of junk, i folded the best hand (TT)

i will be multi tabling this pretty much exclusively for the next couple of weeks and see how it goes.

Best of luck Rob. I defo think you have the game to take quite a lot of money out of the 5/10 swimming pool!

jimbling

cardshark202 wrote:

Jimbling,

Don't take this the wrong way but having seen a few of your recent threads I recommend you move down levels unless you can afford to lose a few k.

I am in a rush to get out of here so this is a quick knee jerk reaction to cardsharks advice. I will comment on the other remarks in a while.

I certainly won't take it the wrong way cardshark, but would prefer if you picked out the things you think I did/said wrong so I can at least attempt to back myself up... or take my faults on board.


I never play poker with money I can't afford to lose.

Also, I do not play poker like the rest of ye. I do not have the time or patience to grind (i.e. the size of winnings doesnt attract me). I only play occassionaly - in bursts. Therefore I am not under the usual bankroll rules.
I could go into a lot of detail here, but to be honest I feel I don't need to explain myself on this point.

I have made a lot of money (by my standards) playing poker this year, and almost 60% of that is due to the higher level cash games. I am under no illusion that I currently have what it takes to continually beat these games - but when I am playing well and running well I can. I always drop back down when I feel it going the other way.

I had 500 in my account (I never keep a large amount in my account) when I bought into a 3/6 game last week. I now have 3k, of which I will remove 1.5k tonight. I am fully aware I could lose some of that quite easily. I accept that.

This may all sound very stupid to you, perhaps stinks of fishy fishy.... but thats the way it is.
don't take me wrong..... I thank you for your concern.
j

cardshark202

Fair enough. Its just the few hands you posted were played less than optimally to put it mildly, which would make me question as to whether you are really a long term winner or just the recipient of some good variance.

With regards to the two hands you posted here, I would say all has been said already.
And the KTs hand from the other thread is an auto-fold from the SB, you shouldn't even consider calling a raise with that hand in that position.

jimbling

fuzzbox wrote:

Hand 1 - easy fold - and I most likely dont make it 100 preflop when he reraises me - he has AA/KK here a lot and he is not folding often.

Hand 2 - open minraise is not always AA/KK - min REraise is usually AA/KK though. Check fold the river - dont check/raise the turn, and just check/fold the turn when he calls your flop lead.

Hand1:
I'm not really sure how you can think Hand1 is an easy fold. The reason for that is because I don't see how you can think it's AA/KK here a lot of the time.
He has put in a standard raise from late position. These high level 6handed games are played very aggressively. His range is huge here.*
I know that you play at this level, so I am surprised you think this.

*Note that I did say at the top of the post that the player was aggressive.

Anyway...back to the hand in question. One of the main reasons I raised 100 here was to make him put me on AK. Wouldn't you put me on that? If the flop is large then he has to worry I've hit it (unless he does have a top pair), and if the flop is small, I can take advantage of that situation.
When he came over the top to my smallish flop bet, I made a judgement call. I believe he did put me on AK and he was just taking advantage of the small flop to push me off it.

Hand Completion:

[Oct 2 21:10:09] : jimmbling called $255 and is All-in
[Oct 2 21:10:09] : Showdown!
[Oct 2 21:10:09] : Seat 3 : jimmbling has Jd Jh
[Oct 2 21:10:11] : Seat 1 : -erdnase- has 5d 5c
[Oct 2 21:10:11] : Seat 3 : jimmbling has Jd Jh
[Oct 2 21:09:49] : Board cards
[Oct 2 21:09:49] : Seat 1 : -erdnase- has 5d 5c
[Oct 2 21:09:49] : -erdnase- has Two Pair: 10s and 9s
[Oct 2 21:09:49] : Seat 3 : jimmbling has Jd Jh
[Oct 2 21:09:49] : jimmbling has Two Pair: Jacks and 10s
[Oct 2 21:09:49] : jimmbling wins $1,102 with Two Pair: Jacks and 10s
[Oct 2 21:09:58] : Hand is over.




Hand2:
I do think I played this hand pretty badly, but I also believe a lot of it was an error of judgement. What I mean is that I think this move would have worked against most.
But as someone pointed out, the type of player that min-raises with top pair is unlikely to let it go.
But with 4 players in the hand - sb and bb included, I really can't understand why he didnt fear the 4.

Lets assume he was a good player who, on this occasion, happened to min raise with top pair.

I don't think I agree with you on the turn (to check fold once he calls the flop bet). A large number of players will call the flop bet to see what you do on the turn. I think my check raise was too small alright though.

I did make a third stab at it, and I did get called. He showed AA and won the hand.
I also disagree with you about the min-raise. I don't have the experience you have, but the majority of times I see this it ends up been a top pair.

jimbling

bubbleking wrote:

hand 1: rarely reraise 4 times a raise with pocket jacks you are most likely behind unless your facing AK.

hand 2: never try to get a donk to lay down aces

Just replying to this individually because so many people seem to think Ill be behind with JJ.
Why on earth do you think this??? There is only 3 hands in the deck that beat me. In almost every round in these games there is a raise into the blinds. Do ye honestly believe that someone has AA/KK/QQ every single round???
people raise in these games with everything and nothing... from small pairs to suited connectors to complete rags. Occasionally ill be behind here... but thats it.

Besides that, I would not always raise that large here*, but as explained in previous post, I wanted him to put me on AK. He knows I'm not going to do that with AA/KK.

*In fact, since I'm in the SB, I would quite often just call here and see how it pans out.



Secondly... You're all right about not getting a donk to lay down aces. I didnt know if he was a donk or not, but I guess you should always assume they are until I know otherwise.

thanks for all the advice and criticism.. it is appreciated.

fuzzbox

Sorry jimbling - I didnt see that it was 5/10.
The reraise to 100 is fine - but when he calls and raises me on that flop, then I usually just let it go, because most often he has me beat.

My comments about hand 2 stand - when you lead into a field on that flop and he calls, then he has a better hand than you and if its AA, then he wont fold, so just check/fold the turn yourself.

Btw - your comments about not getting stacked with KT when you hold top pair might be incorrect .... since you hold 67 here, and hit top pair, and lost a bundle !!

TacT

I like that JJ hand a lot given the fact that it's erdnase, he gets way too frisky with small pairs/AK a lot. Used to play a lot with him.

jimbling

fuzzbox wrote:

Sorry jimbling - I didnt see that it was 5/10.
The reraise to 100 is fine - but when he calls and raises me on that flop, then I usually just let it go, because most often he has me beat.

My comments about hand 2 stand - when you lead into a field on that flop and he calls, then he has a better hand than you and if its AA, then he wont fold, so just check/fold the turn yourself.

Btw - your comments about not getting stacked with KT when you hold top pair might be incorrect .... since you hold 67 here, and hit top pair, and lost a bundle !!

no worries fuzz....

as regards the KT hand. I think the two scenarios are incomparable. What I mean by not getting stacked with the KT and top pair is that, due to the raises etc I know that that hand won't be good enough to play. There is no way I will get stacked with KT on a K72 board for example.
With regards the 67 hand, I KNEW I was behind. I knew (to a highish degree) that he had AA/KK. I made the error of judgement that he would be concerned about the 44 on the board. I am in the BB and could have absolutely ANY two cards. This would not have happened in the KT hand.

Also a point.... at any lower levels I would never have tried to make this move at this point. But at 3/6 and above, people generally know when to fold a hand. Taking advantage of these scenarios is an important part of anyones game at this level. I know I got it wrong at this time, but I have often gotton it right.
I am not posting in regards to the move itself, but weather I should have known that he wouldn't fold (I do think that is the case) or weather there was some other approach I could have taken to make the move work.