Poker Argument 2

DITTag

This is between myself and Bobo_fett... I would like your opinions on this matter... Jackpot €20 F O.. .. 2500 starting stack with about 45 runners...With blinds 150 and 300 in this hand Bobo_fett is on the small blind with about 2200 and average stack about 4000. UTG limps.. Utg+1 limps and 4 others limp including the button. Boba_fett says both UTG and UTG+1 both have folded to raises a couple of times after limping and they were not decent players. The other players who limped were decent players... Anyways his point is that no matter what his hole cards were it was a good idea to push cause he didnt expect a caller! My argument is very bad push for two reasons!

1: Your only goin to get called by a better hand
2: Limpers in early position are bound to have a monster

Results to come later! Opinions please?

Daithio

I agree with Boba_fett on this one. Your first point, that you're only going to get called by a hand that beats you, is true, but the fact is you're probably not going to get called. You might, but in the long run this play has a positive expectation because of the amount of times you won't get a caller, and you'll almost double up without having to go to a showdown. You're shortstacked and have to gamble from time to time, and this is a spot to do it. If you do get called you're rarely going to be worse than a slight underdog, unless the first limper has limped with a big pair.

The second point you make is pretty questionable too, a limp doesn't always have to be a monster, especially if you have seen the same player limp with rubbish already. Realistically the only person you have to be worried about getting a call off is the utg limper. It's very rare that somebody limps with a monster after there have already been limpers before them, they're much more likely to have small pocket pairs or suited connectors.

So yeah, I think it's the correct push with any two there, but I'm guessing he pushed with rubbish and utg had limped with AA/KK. :rolleyes:

Gholimoli

this is push is infact very good play and a very effective way of collecting alot of chips.
the two points you made dont really apply.
its true that if you get called your most likely behind but the fact is if any one had a calling hand they would have raised with it most most likely.
the only person you should be affrid of really is the UTG as he may have have limped with a big hand but when short stakced you need to take some chances and this is a perfect chance as Dathio said.
the point here is most of the limpers can not afford to call you even if they knew you would do this with any two card.
say if you did this with 72 and one of the limpers had JT and he knew you had 72 ,he would still be facing a very hard decision for a call for a huge chunk of his stack as 72 is not that much of a dog to JT and most of the limpers would have hands like this.

califano

I wouldnt reccomend making this move in a low buy-in event like a €20 FO.

fiddlesticks

I disagree with the push, in these games not everyone plays poker to the highest of standards and the calling ranges of a lot of players increases a great deal.
There is a huge amount of limping utg and utg+1 with big hands with the expectation of a preflop raise so they can come over the top with all their chips. Happens all the time.
Given utg has folded to a raise, it probably wasnt in this position and with the image of him folding to a raise after a limp, he probably felt he was going to get raised again which makes sense to him.
A very good play in fairness to the push, in a game where people play poker to a higher standard but not in this. I think he will be able to pick a better spot.

gerry87

I might have seen this hand, did he flip over T3 and yell "What can you limp then call that with???"

I didn't think about it at the time, but thinking about it now, if it was that hand, it was an alright move, then the huge stacks who might have gambled with a weak Ace had already folded so everyone who limped wasn't likely to call with anything other than a decent pocket pair or a high ace. And since it's unlikely anyone at that stage would limp with a high ace, there aren't many hands that could call.

I could have the wrong hand though.

cooker3

rounders123 wrote:

I wouldnt reccomend making this move in a low buy-in event like a €20 FO.

Well I have played this a few times and this is a move I like making and do a lot as Boba_Fett will tell you.

Yes players are pretty bad but in general they don't get too out of line, for reasons Gholi and Daitho have said above this is very good move and majority of times it works and opponants will fold, if you seen them fold before when they have just called then all the better.
At this game 4 weeks ago or so I pushed in these type of situations so many times it was funny yet they still couldn't find a call 90% of the time (the other 10% when they called I luckboxed it

So in general at this game and most games, good move.

aodea

well its a good move in a different game but in this game its a differnt matter. I always call with aces kings and queens knowing someone will raise and i can isolate them. it happens every time its just how the game is played at the jackpot. The standard is very poor so its a matter of finding hands and isolating players who think kj and kq are monstors. Also it is not rare that the first two limpers will call with marginal hands its just the standard there. Im, not saying its a good poker play but its how i find you have to play in this game.

ditpoker

aodea wrote:

The standard is very poor

how many times have you cashed in this!?

I think the play is grand and one i have done a few times but i have found in the jackpot 20 game you're more likely to get a caller than in a slightly higher buy in game. Perhaps pushing with ANY two cards i disagree with here but you can definately have a much wider range. Boba_fett is a good player and is better than the vast majority of players in the jackpot game so making this move he is only giving up his skill edge. If he takes a free flops from BB and misses he still has a playable stack i think. Also, at this blind level i dont think the average is as high as 4000.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

aodea

well jeff i aint cashed in this but in fairness a lot of outdraws have seen to that. to be honest i just think pushing gives away any advantage u have against these players. its generally a lot easier to make them fold after the flop well thats just my opinon. but as you say jeff you have a much better record in this so who am i to argue with you

Mellor

How did the hand play out?

DapperGent

ditpoker wrote:

Boba_fett is a good player and is better than the vast majority of players in the jackpot game so making this move he is only giving up his skill edge.

I dunno this boba_fett but making this move is a demonstration of a skill edge rather than the giving of one up.

DITTag

From the standard of the tourney your going to get called by the likes of QJo or K10o... I agree this is a good play in say the Fitz EOM

boba_fett3099

gerry87 wrote:

I might have seen this hand, did he flip over T3 and yell "What can you limp then call that with???"

Yeah this is the hand. I thought this play was fairly standard tbh and as Cooker3 siad its a great way of picking up chips in the mid stages of a tournie. Definately something you should have in your arsenal. I disagree with what people are saying about it being a bad move in this game, because the average limping range in this tournament would be much wider than in a higher buy-in tournament like the Fitz EOM for example!

As Gholi said there aren't many hands that can call me and when i do get called im likely 35-40% so if i think this raise can get through even more than half the time then it has a huge +EV.

The way the hand played out i had T3 and UTG had kings and flopped quads:mad:...fcuking fish!!!

BTW which seat were you sitting in gerry??


Heres a link to a similar thread on 2+2: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=7270998&page=

gerry87

i dealt the hand... Sincere apologies

Rnger

ditpoker wrote:

Boba_fett is a good player and is better than the vast majority of players in the jackpot game so making this move he is only giving up his skill edge.

it takes skill to recognize such an oppurtunity as this and push

Trippie

If the kings wernt there you would of gotten away with it but these things happen

came 6th tonight for €600 btw, i busted when the blinds where 3/6k, i had 120k with an open ended straight flush draw on the flop and ended up losing to top pair,it left me with only 16k left and in the blinds soon so i just said **** it went all-in next hand

ianmc38

Absolutely standard move. WP.

boba_fett3099

Unlucky but good result...I should try playing instead of dealing more often:D!!

Flushdraw

Trippie wrote:

came 6th tonight for €600 btw, i busted when the blinds where 3/6k, i had 120k with an open ended straight flush draw on the flop and ended up losing to top pair,it left me with only 16k left and in the blinds soon so i just said **** it went all-in next hand

Well i think you played it right and if you had of taken down that hand, it would have given you a good shot on taking the tournament down. Good performance though. Look at the brightside, u got a lift home aswel instead of putting the 600 into a cash game and tilting it away!!