Shed without planning

Board@Work

Apologies if this is the wrong forum to post in!! pls move if necessary!

I am purchasing a house in north wicklow and a month after placing the initial deposit the estate agent has call me and told me that the shed in the back garden doesn't have planning permission.

she has given me two options:

1. they will knock it down
2. we go ahead with the purchase and i apply for retention planning after the purchase.

They are unwillign to apply for planning due to the added delay and the vendor now lives in Australia. I also am not in favour of this as I want to move ASAP.

The shed is a separate structure and not joined to the main house. It is made of corrugated light weight metal with a corrugated sloped roof. It has a concrete floor and has no electricity or running water. it has been there a number of years without any complaints. it measures by my calculations 26 sq meters but the estate agent measured it to 25 sq meters.

As the shed is quite sizable it was a major reason for purchasing this house so if they knock it down I will call off the purchase. My plan of action is to keep the shed, apply for planning after the purchase and also ask for money of the purchasing price of the house as it is an inconvience and I may have to knock it down and rebuild later costing me money.

Anybody been through a similar situation and got any advise for me. I am a first time buyer and new to all of this.


Thanks

Lex Luthor

http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/doeipub.nsf/0/559a098a4b8ace5580256faf00394f01/$FILE/PL5%20Doing%20work%20around%20the%20House.pdf

it looks like 25sq m is the max allowable for a shed without needing planning. Looks like you should throw away that tape measure

muffler

Your options here are fairly simple - either apply for permission for retention of the shed or toss it or if the auctioneer has said that it is 25 sq. metres and no more than 3 metres high then get her to arrage for someone to issue you with a certificate confirming this.

Victor

Talk to the local council, see what has had planning in the area over the last 7-8 years. Ask them what they would feel about a shed.

samo

We purchased a house where a block built shed had been built and during the contracts stage emerged planning permission wasnt in place (although wasnt strictly neccessary as complied with exemption limits)

I'd suggest you check the exemption limits as it may well comply and in our case our solicitor got the vendors to arrange for the county council to come out and inspect it - they then passed it as exempt and issued a certificate of compliance for it. There wasnt any charge for it and only added about a week to whole process so it may not be quite such a deal breaker as you'd expect.

Lex Luthor

The vendors are out of the country as the OP states, but their estate agent should arrange the coco to call out. Sounds like the structure is borderline and was probably built for that capacity

antoinolachtnai

Look at this in a realistic, commercial way. This shed might be outside the regulations, but it isn't necessarily going to cause you any serious problems. It sounds like it is quite close to the regulations, and no one has complained so far.

Now, the question for you is whether you want to make an issue of this. Because it is a free-standing structure and relatively small, I would suggest it is not worth making a fuss. The local authority has better things to do and is unlikely to want to make an issue of it either unless you or a neighbour bring it up (although anything is possible). The worst that can happen is that you will eventually have to knock it. It is really not worth that much; the most valuable part of the shed as you describe it is the concrete base that has been poured. My main concern would be that it is structurally sound and won't fall on top of anybody.

The biggest practical issue is whether the mortgage company will accept this arrangement. I don't think there will be a problem with it.

For what it's worth, I bought a house in 1999 in Dublin city with a shed and a small makeshift extension which the solicitor told me there was no planning permission for. I just pressed ahead. I had planned to knock both, which is why I wasn't too worried about it. However, both the extension and the shed are still there, and there have been no complaints or trouble.

Of course, you need to take your own professional advice as appropriate.

If you think you can get a discount of a thousand or so out of this, go for it.

Good luck with purchasing your first home!

Board@Work

thanks guys for your very useful replies.

Can anybody tell me if the 25 sq meters limit is measured internally or externally.

thanks

muffler

The floor area is measured from the internal face of the external walls/cladding

micks

Board@Work wrote:

thanks guys for your very useful replies.

Can anybody tell me if the 25 sq meters limit is measured internally or externally.

thanks

I'd just press ahead regardless as previously posted!
Worst cases are -
Mortgage co objects - i doubt will happen but then you look for retention or knock
Neighbour or other object in future and then you look for retention or knock

most likely is that you will never hear a word about it
estate agent will be covering herself ie she has told you - over to you now

if its 25sq metres then you'll be fine its supposed to be internal measurements but you'd prob get an architect to give a cert to cover it
If its there more than 5 years it'll be exempt also i think
i'd stay away from the council

personally i'd keep going with sale if that's the only prob

muffler

micks wrote:

If its there more than 5 years it'll be exempt also i think

Not quite right. If it is there more than 5 years and the Planning Authority have not contacted the owner/occupier of the property there is a statutory bar on the Authority preventing them from instigating legal proceedings.

The Planning Authority may not be able to do anything about it but the structure is still deemed to unauthorised development.

Generally not a problem but if the OP was to sell again then he could have bother if the surveyor or solicitor acting for a prospective buyer were "do it by the book" types

Victor

muffler wrote:

Not quite right. If it is there more than 5 years and the Planning Authority have not contacted the owner/occupier of the property there is a statutory bar on the Authority preventing them from instigating legal proceedings.

The five years has been extended to, I think, 7 years.

STaN

If its slightly over the limit internally, just put down really thick skirting boards temporarily. It works

serotonin_sam

STaN wrote:

If its slightly over the limit internally, just put down really thick skirting boards temporarily. It works

Just taking it a step further.

What if a shed was say - 7m2 over the exemption limit. If the pressure came on from the planning authority, could another internal wall be built - to bring it within the 25m2 limit? Would this offer legal coverage?

Do planning inspectors tend to provide notice in advance before calling round or do they (and can they legally) just drop by?

muffler

serotonin_sam wrote:

Just taking it a step further.

What if a shed was say - 7m2 over the exemption limit. If the pressure came on from the planning authority, could another internal wall be built - to bring it within the 25m2 limit? Would this offer legal coverage?

Do planning inspectors tend to provide notice in advance before calling round or do they (and can they legally) just drop by?

The floor area of any structure is calulated from measurements taken from the inner face of the external walls and includes everything on the inside such as walls, chimney breasts, stairwells etc. In the case you refer it wouldn't make any difference as to how many internal walls you build.

As regards the planner calling - they normaly arrive unannounced and only in the event that they cant get access to the property will they notify you

superman12345

muffler wrote:

The floor area of any structure is calulated from measurements taken from the inner face of the external walls and includes everything on the inside such as walls, chimney breasts, stairwells etc. In the case you refer it wouldn't make any difference as to how many internal walls you build.

True - but one can stud off an external wall, that is acceptable. (i.e. from an external wall, move in 1 or 2 feet, put up studwork, and slab entirely).
This is/was standard practice for builders building houses which had to be below grant size etc. - tbh, I doubt an extra sq.m. or 2 would bother anyone.

serotonin_sam

superman12345 wrote:

True - but one can stud off an external wall, that is acceptable. (i.e. from an external wall, move in 1 or 2 feet, put up studwork, and slab entirely).

Thats what I meant. I wonder would they allow you to do this retrospectively following an inspection?

superman12345 wrote:

tbh, I doubt an extra sq.m. or 2 would bother anyone.

Would be thinking along those lines also. Only thing is where theres a significant price to be paid in the unlikely event of things going pear-shaped, just have to be prepared for that scenario. Would only come into play if neighbours objected.

superman12345

If neighbours objected, you could apply for retention, or slap up the stud-work wall at that stage.

muffler

A couple of points to bear in mind here which could get rid of all the ifs and buts.

The shed cant be any higher than 4 metres with a pitched roof finished with slate or tile. If it has any other type of roof or finish then 3 metres is the max. height.

I recall a discussion here a few months ago where the Planning Authoruty insisted that the floor area was gross area and therefore took into account the external walls. They were wrong in doing this of course but according to the user who posted up the details they refused to give him written confirmation that his shed was exempted development and this had a knock on effect on his mortgage. I never heard if the matter was resolved or not.

serotonin_sam

What if the 'shed' was being used as a living space (meaning that it wouldnt be exempt from planning). If they discovered this (or more likely, it was brought to their attention), what steps would they take?

Would the property owner be able just to agree to change the use of the building and would that be the end of the matter? Can they fine you for this sort of thing or could they force you to remove the structure?

muffler

serotonin_sam wrote:

What if the 'shed' was being used as a living space (meaning that it wouldnt be exempt from planning). If they discovered this (or more likely, it was brought to their attention), what steps would they take?

Would the property owner be able just to agree to change the use of the building and would that be the end of the matter? Can they fine you for this sort of thing or could they force you to remove the structure?

First of all the property owner will not be in much of a position to "just to agree" to anything. Its more like if the planners will just agree.

He will have to make an application for retention permission. If he gets it, fine. If he doesn't then the Council will order the removal/demolition of the shed. You can be taken to court and fined and/or imprisoned.

serotonin_sam

muffler wrote:

If he doesn't then the Council will order the removal/demolition of the shed.

Would they not be inclined to consider a submission by the property owner to change use to that of a home office?

muffler

serotonin_sam wrote:

Would they not be inclined to consider a submission by the property owner to change use to that of a home office?

Of course the Council will consider and deal with any planning application but the planning application has to be made in the first instance and not just "agreed" as you previously put it.

If an application is for the retention of change of use of a building and permission is refused then the planners can insist that you make another application to change it back to its original use.

There are several options available to people in these circumsatnces but if you had something specific in mind you could PM me if you wanted a wee bit of advice