Accusations in the 4 Aces

DS

Just looking for people's opinions on the following situation. I'm in the middle of the full ring €1/€3 PL Hold Em game in the 4 Aces, Galway, playing quite tight and talking to my friend away from the table when not in a hand. When I come back to the table after leaving for a chat for maybe the second time, the dealer (a girl, her name is Síofra I think) says something along the lines of "we don't do that kind of thing here", "one player per stack" or something to that effect, basically implying that I was somehow colluding with my friend, who had recently been eliminated from the cash game. We would have been talking in somewhat hushed tones, as my friend was giving out about another suckout. This is probably where she got the grand idea of collusion.

I then confronted her about this allegation in front of the manager (Mike Murphy), who, having just joined the game, seemed eager to resolve the issue, but with the help of some retarded (horny) players on the table she succeeded in blowing off the whole thing. I was drunk and didn't remember exactly what she had said at the time, which she was delighted to hear of course, and I didn't want to misquote her.

So I decided I didn't want to make a scene and said I'd wait for a better opportunity to bring it up. Anyway, when I decided to leave the manager was still involved in the game, so I left without complaining. I'm still very pissed off, as I felt she was questioning my integrity in front of the whole table just because she didn't like the fact that I was leaving the table for short intervals, when she easily could have relayed the situation to the manager and not said a thing, if she had a legitimate problem. This dealer has often shown herself to be overeager to reprimand people for anything remotely unusual at the table, especially newbies.

I'd like to hear what you think about the dealer's comments, and whether I should complain or not.

Butternutz

Hi ds i dont really post on boards but enjoy reading all the issues, as a dealer myself the importance of watching for collusion or tampering is very important,and if i thought collusion was taking place wouldnt confront the players myself, but inform the floor manager and let them deal with it, i think what the dealer was doing was trying to solve the issue in a humourous manner, If i were you i would call into the club later and explain the situation to the manager andhow badly it was dealt with.

Daithio

That's a disgrace that it was said at the table in front of other players, and that you were accused of it by the dealer before she'd even spoken to the manager about it. I'd go in and talk the manager in person without her there and let him know that that sort of behaviour from a dealer is really not on.

DeVore

Perhaps she meant that she thought you were going to talk to your friend for advice on the hand. You dont mention if you had cards at the time.

I've seen dealers in the fitz warn two chinese guys who were blatantly obviously talking to each other under their hands in chinese, so while its unusual I *have* seen it done.

If you werent in a hand at the time then its none of her business if you got up to talk to someone who wasnt even in the game. Lots of people go out for a smoke with each other because they are mates... I dont see anything wrong with it tbh...

DeV.

Mellor

DeVore wrote:

Perhaps she meant that she thought you were going to talk to your friend for advice on the hand. You dont mention if you had cards at the time.

I've seen dealers in the fitz warn two chinese guys who were blatantly obviously talking to each other under their hands in chinese, so while its unusual I *have* seen it done.



DeV.

Not being racist, but you should be allowed to speak in anything other than english at the table. Then again, if you happen to known chinese then if could be to your advantage.

bohsman

There is an English only at the table rule practically everywhere poker is played - in Barcelona it was Spanish and English only so in that case the dealer has every right to tell them English only.

Goodluck2me

bohsman wrote:

There is an English only at the table rule practically everywhere poker is played - in Barcelona it was Spanish and English only so in that case the dealer has every right to tell them English only.

ya i have seen several times dealers saying to foreigners in the fitz, english only whilst some of them are in a hand. it is only fair. by the way things are going though you could nearly have as much success speakign irish at the table!

NickyOD

I don't see any problem with a dealer correcting a player within reason as long as long as it's not in a derogetory manner (although sometimes it deserves it). Usually players should be spoken to away fromt he table but some players are just so consistently crossing the line that its impossible to do that and is very difficult for dealers to deal with. I know what the 4 aces is like and I can imagine the dealer has quite a dificult job so if she makes an a mistake its probably because she is used to that kind of behavious. I'm certain if you just explained what you were doing the dealer would have apologised and you could have enjoyed the rest of the game without any ill feeling. I also think its very inappropiate and rude for you to sit there say nothing and then come here and post this on boards, mentioning the dealer and managers names. It was clearly just a misunderstanding.

yopnailbrush

Is it not the dealers job just to deal cards and ensure the smooth runing of the table?

Are they not supposed to report such observations/thoughts to the floor manager, TD, etc and let them look after it?

yopnailbrush

NickyOD wrote:

I also think its very inappropiate and rude for you to sit there say nothing and then come here and post this on boards, mentioning the dealer and managers names.

I totally agree with the above statement...... Why couldn't you address the situation at the time?

The_Chopper

In the 4 aces casino there is no floor manager for cash games.
The dealers are impowered to deal with players in a fair way as they see fit.

By your own admission you were pretty drunk and things could have been misunderstood.

I know the dealer you are on about quite well, and while she can be cranky at times she's very fair.

As a regular in there I see a lot the dealers have to put up with, from cheats to drunk and back again. They have a tough job and it's not always possible to leave a table full of players to have a heart to heart with another player.

I agree with Nicky's comment completely in this matter

tricky D

The_Chopper wrote:

In the 4 aces casino there is no floor manager for cash games.
The dealers are impowered to deal with players in a fair way as they see fit.

This isn't good on many levels. Dealers need a floor manager to handle and make such decisions on these kinds of matters in a manner that deflects the flak and bad vibes from the dealer who usually has to continue at the table. This is especially important when questioning someone's integrity which needs to be handled with discretion and should done be away from the table if possible.

Also unless she actually overheard the conversation, she is merely speculating that you were colluding, which is less than ideal.

The_Chopper

tricky D wrote:

This isn't good on many levels. Dealers need a floor manager to handle and make such decisions on these kinds of matters in a manner that deflects the flak and bad vibes from the dealer who usually has to continue at the table. This is especially important when questioning someone's integrity which needs to be handled with discretion and should done be away from the table if possible.

Also unless she actually overheard the conversation, she is merely speculating that you were colluding, which is less than ideal.

FYI:
In the four aces a dealer will only speak to a player if another player has complained about him or her.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

goodluck2me wrote:

ya i have seen several times dealers saying to foreigners in the fitz, english only whilst some of them are in a hand. it is only fair. by the way things are going though you could nearly have as much success speakign irish at the table!

would love to see someone try to say "english only" to a native irish speaker!
it is the first language in the constitution, and you can't be banned from speaking it, no matter what the rules in the card club.

kakak1

Roundtower2 wrote:

would love to see someone try to say "english only" to a native irish speaker!
it is the first language in the constitution, and you can't be banned from speaking it, no matter what the rules in the card club.

No, but you can be banned from a members club if you don't play by the rules.

What the real problem here is playing cards when drunk. Not acceptable and should not be allowed by the club. This fellow can't remember what the dealer said to him so how does he remember what even happened on the night. Case dismissed.

Sangre

Roundtower2 wrote:

would love to see someone try to say "english only" to a native irish speaker!
it is the first language in the constitution, and you can't be banned from speaking it, no matter what the rules in the card club.

No, its the joint first language of Ireland. There is no first/second with English/Irish.
Any one in a poker room, is in a member's only club (which implies rules/regulations), on private property. The owner can tell them to do whatever he wants. The same way you can let whoever you see fit into your house.

Enigma365

Does much collusion happen in Irish casinos? Do people ever use code(in English) to say what they have or to request a move from a fellow colluder For example "I'm thirsty", could mean "raise please".

I wonder how common it is. It probably wouldnt be that eays or effective tho.

Can a members only club ban people based on race?

kakak1

Enigma365 wrote:

Does much collusion happen in Irish casinos? Do people ever use code(in English) to say what they have or to request a move from a fellow colluder For example "I'm thirsty", could mean "raise please".

I wonder how common it is. It probably wouldnt be that eays or effective tho.

Can a members only club ban people based on race?

they could refuse their membership because of race but could not quote it as a reason.

Goodluck2me

kakak1 wrote:

they could refuse their membership because of race but could not quote it as a reason.

theyd be shut down incredibly quickly if they did.

Goodluck2me

Sangre wrote:

No, its the joint first language of Ireland. There is no first/second with English/Irish.
Any one in a poker room, is in a member's only club (which implies rules/regulations), on private property. The owner can tell them to do whatever he wants. The same way you can let whoever you see fit into your house.

this isnt true either, they still have to abide by the laws of the country.

Sangre

Knew someone was going to point that out.

Fatboydim

The_Chopper wrote:

FYI:
In the four aces a dealer will only speak to a player if another player has complained about him or her.

That's exactly what I thought would have happened. Player complains and dealer has to mention it. I would say it's just one of those things. Someone thinks you might be getting tips off your friend ala Tiffany Williams. And that's not allowed. Probably just needed to be communicated in a better way. I also suspect that because you'd had a drink and didn't respond at the time it's probably one of those delayed reactions. That maybe you thought about it when it was too late to question the dealer about it. The moment had passed.

Just chalk it up to experience - and maybe the dealer will too.

DS

I'm certain if you just explained what you were doing the dealer would have apologised and you could have enjoyed the rest of the game without any ill feeling. I also think its very inappropiate and rude for you to sit there say nothing and then come here and post this on boards, mentioning the dealer and managers names.

I should clarify that I didn't sit there and do nothing. As I said in my original post, I confronted her straight away, asked her if she had a problem, and told her that she was making a very serious accusation. Then I got caught up telling some other mouthy player that it was none of his business. The manager was just sitting down to the game on my right at the time, and he asked what the problem was. I was fairly irate at this stage and she decided not to tell him what she had said, so he asked me and being drunk I couldn't remember what she had said at the time, so I dropped it. In hindsight, I actually did make a scene. If I was more sober I could have dealt with it more calmly and effectively. However, considering what she said I don't regret reacting the way I did at all.

She then smugly said "oh you can't remember now", as if she hadn't opened her mouth. This clearly shows that she is not concerned with the actual issue of collusion and knows it was a completely baseless accusation, but was more interested in cheaply undermining my integrity at the table. Otherwise she would have been eager to let the manager know.

It should also be noted that players regularly leave the table for extended periods without any problem. I did so only twice while I was folded and waiting for my next hand to be dealt, having already been at the table for at least an hour without leaving.

The reason I mentioned her name was to put the incident in context for people who know the dealers in the 4 Aces, as this kind of comment is typical of the dealer in question. I don't think it's in any way inappropriate to name the dealer. She felt it appropriate to make the accusation in public, and as such I will freely quote her on the subject.

It was clearly just a misunderstanding.

It was much more than just that. Even if she had reasonable evidence to suspect me of collusion, which she 100% did not, the way she dealt with it was totally unprofessional. There are many things a dealer should correct a player for immediately and at the table, and this is obviously not one of them. It's a very delicate issue which needs to be handled carefully. The way she went about it was provocative, wreckless, and guaranteed to create a scene.

In the four aces a dealer will only speak to a player if another player has complained about him or her.

That's not true.

RoundTower

Dealing with drunks is part of the dealer's job. In this case she should try and keep the drunk well behaved and not slowing the game down or breaking the rules. Normally she shouldn't need to call the manager here unless the player in question is really disturbing the game, in which case he should probably be asked to leave the game.

DS

That's completely beside the point. I may have been a bit drunk and absent minded, but I was very together otherwise, I hadn't spoken at the table at all up until that point, didn't break any rules, acted quickly at all times, and on the occasion's I left the table I was back before the action reached me, not that it's ever a problem to fold the hand of an absent player. This particular incident was the first time the dealer had said anything to me, so my prior behaviour was not an issue.

hairyfairy00

DS you had the oppertunity to approach me in the club after i had finished dealing (and still do ), you chose not to do so, instead you told one of the players sitting at the table that you were going to put your complaint on Boards (I was told this by the player in question yesterday).
I'm not going to discuss this matter further on Boards, if you want to discuss it come see me in the club.

NickyOD

nabbed

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Poker and people with drink taken dont mix .......... thats why u aint allowed sit if u are intoxicated in any way in both our clubs .......

It just stops all this aftermath ........ Dealers should also only speak when spoken 2 , im not been rude when i say this or when they need 2 move on the action then they can speak gettin involved in play only causes problemos , Thats y we got managers people 2 take away the unwanted at the table or deal with the problems .....

Lets all just have a big group hug with mike in the middle and forget about it ......just dont crush him in there


neill
bsp

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Gholimoli

bohsman wrote:

There is an English only at the table rule practically everywhere poker is played - in Barcelona it was Spanish and English only so in that case the dealer has every right to tell them English only.

your only saying this cuz im from Iran.

Marq

I've read this thread with some interest, and here's my opinion on the situation:

Síofra says something along the lines of "we don't do that kind of thing here", "one player per stack" or something to that effect, basically implying that I was somehow colluding with my friend

The dealer here was not "basically implying" anything. she was a stating rule that is almost universally applicable in live cardrooms. There should only be one player to a hand. Non-players shouldn't be at the table without a good reason, and if the dealer suspects in any way that you may have shared information about your hand with anybody else then he or she has a right to remind you of this rule. She did not explicitly accuse you of collusion, but that's how you chose to interpret it. From your posts it seems that you handled this situation very badly; you admit to causing a scene, you admit that you can't remember exactly what the dealer said, and you admit that although there was ample opportunity for you to sort this out with the dealer in question or the poker room manager, you did not do so, and instead posted your grievances here on boards.

On a somewhat related note, As a dealer of some considerable experience myself, I must say that dealing with drunks at the table is one of the most difficult and frustrating parts of the job. While the job may look easy, keeping the game moving quickly and within the rules becomes much harder when there are belligerent drunkards at the table. I am often very short with people who I feel are slowing up the game, and often come across as mean.

DeVore

You ARE mean.

DeV.

DeVore

The manager was just sitting down to the game on my right at the time, and he asked what the problem was.

...being drunk I couldn't remember what she had said at the time...

Do you think that maybe the first bit was a consequence of the second bit

DeV.