ROTR roundabouts

Sandwich

I see the ROTR still has the same section on roundabouts as when I did the test many moons ago. But I notice the general practice these days seems to be to indicate right if taking an exit that is more than half way round the r'bout - even if that exit is only the second (or even first) one after the one entered from. In conflict with my understanding: indicate left-first exit, no indication- second exit indicacted after past first, right indication - 3rd exit, indicate left after passing preceding one.

Am I out of date? Are the ROTR in the sticky above the current version?

colm_mcm

I'm of the same opinion as yourself. THe 12 O'Clock rule is only used as an example when all exits are at 90 degrees to each other. and is not a correct rule of thumb for roundabouts with exits closer together.
I had a disagreement with DrivingInfo over this.

The rules of the road state that for the 3rd or subsequent exit, you indicate right and take the right hand lane (where available)

Supercell

Try doing your driving test in Finglas and see if you come out of all the bloomin' roundabouts unscathed!

I think the opinions on this vary from one person to another.
Common sense would be that if going straight through and taking the second exit that you indicate only after the first exit, but when effectivly turning right on a non mini roundabout seems to be a very grey area for example.

I got a mark on my test today in Finglas coming up to a large roundabout which I wasn't familiar with and the tester just said take the second exit, I couldn't see the layout at all ahead and thought it was going to be a straight through but it was a right turn in the end - got a mark for that . I passed anyhow and its all academical, but jebus roundabouts are a very grey area imho.

colm_mcm

i don't think the position of the exits on the roundabouts should make a difference to the way you indicate.
For example: If the first exit off the roundabout is straight ahead, then you should be indicating left as you approach the roundabout.

Sandwich

colm_mcm wrote:

i don't think the position of the exits on the roundabouts should make a difference to the way you indicate.
For example: If the first exit off the roundabout is straight ahead, then you should be indicating left as you approach the roundabout.

Which is what I do, but as observed, seems no longer to be the normal practice.

I got a mark on my test today in Finglas coming up to a large roundabout which I wasn't familiar with and the tester just said take the second exit, I couldn't see the layout at all ahead and thought it was going to be a straight through but it was a right turn in the end - got a mark for that .

If you mean the second exit the 2nd exit you took was more than half way round, yet got marked for not signalling right comming to the r'bout , then it must be that the rules have changed, but the book hasnt been updated. As I suspected.

Any one done any driving lessons lately been given any advice on this one.

Also, if it has changed, then why no info campaign (unless I missed it)? There's even a TV add these days for overtaking which just restates the basics. Surely a change in practice would merit something similar.

BreadBoard

colm_mcm wrote:

i don't think the position of the exits on the roundabouts should make a difference to the way you indicate.
For example: If the first exit off the roundabout is straight ahead, then you should be indicating left as you approach the roundabout.

I agree. Also like Longfield sort of said, if you come up to a roundabout you don't know, what do you do?

Supercell

Sandwich wrote:

Any one done any driving lessons lately been given any advice on this one.

Also, if it has changed, then why no info campaign (unless I missed it)? There's even a TV add these days for overtaking which just restates the basics. Surely a change in practice would merit something similar.

Not sure that its a "change" in practice, more a diversity of practice.

In my first driving test which I failed I got no roundabout marks (there was only one straight forward one on the Churchtown route) but I got loads of marks for observation etc which I got a grand total of one today (roundabout!!) no marks at all from today apart from that thanks to good teaching.

As roundabouts seemed to be fine it wasn't an area of focus in my lessons.

What i'm saying is that there isnt consistancy, have read other people here posting about having to indicate coming off a mini roundabout!!
Think the rules of the road need to really clarify this down, I drove as I normally do, but did pick up a couple of roundabout marks, which another tester might not have given me and both would believe they were correct.

The rules of the road don't really contradict one or the other..is the second turn if past 180 degrees a right indicator or a no indicator and left after exit one or not..well tbh I dunno!, common sense to me is that its a right indicator!!

Sandwich

Longfield wrote:

common sense to me is that its a right indicator!!

No, not according to the roles of the road as linked in the sticky, which are unambiguous. But you seem to be in the majority to indicate right nonetheless.

BrianD3

I was taught the "12 o clock rule" by my driving instructor (ISM) I think the ROTR is ambiguous about this issue. On one hand it talks about first exit, second exit etc. But further down the page it talks about making left and right turns and going staright on. Here's what it has to say about turning right

MAKING A RIGHT TURN
Staying in the right hand lane, indicate your approach and maintain this signal until you have passed the exit before the the one you intend to take. Then change to the "left" turn indicator"

So as can be seen there is no mention of exit numbers here. If "making a right turn" is the relevant issue then any exit after 12 o'clock could be considered as "making a right turn"

JHMEG

The rules of the road haven't changed. There are just more drivers on the roads now making up the rules (and sticking to them) as they go along. Maybe "refresher tests" every couple of years would cure the problem?

Lex Luthor

BreadBoard wrote:

if you come up to a roundabout you don't know, what do you do?

go back and re-sit your test:rolleyes:

BreadBoard

Lex Luthor wrote:

go back and re-sit your test:rolleyes:

How about quoting all of my post, including the post I quoted before you roll your eyes.

I don't see you offering any constrictive comments to this thread.

J_R

Hi,

The rules on roundabouts did not change, however in the draft version of the new ROTR they have changed the explanation slightly.

!st and 2nd exits they left the same, however for the 3rd exit they changed

IF LEAVING BY ANY SUBSEQUENT EXIT

to

IF LEAVING BY ANY EXIT AFTER THE 12 O'CLOCK POSITION

See Roundabouts Ireland


IMHO.
If exit before (or at) 12 O'clock:
1st exit, stay left, indicate left on approach.
If 2nd (or 3rd, 4th whatever) stay left, do not indicate approaching, indicate left after you pass the exit before the one you want.

If exit is after 12 O'clock:
Treat as a right turn, indicate right, stay right - applies to all exits. Exception would be the 1st exit. Then irrespective where it is on the clock face would indicate left on approach.

Above for standard roundabouts. If a combination of roundabouts close together, and/or a roundabout with roads joining at various angles, some roads single lane, others 2 or more then the local council, the NRA or whoever is responsible should ensure that the lanes are clearly marked so that a motorist on approach can select the appropriate lane for their destination. These lane markings would then over-ride any, or all of the above.

The new Irish rule book (when published) will also give a brief explanation on mini - roundabouts. See above link. They copied - pasted this directly from the UK Highway code Roundabouts Highway Code.

Supercell

Small change in the wording but makes sense and clears up any misconceptions/misunderstandings.

Thanks J_R .

Vikings

How about a roundabout with 3 lanes? Like the one at Liffey Valley.

Coming from Liffey Valley and getting onto the N4 going in the Celbridge direction...

3 lanes. Left lane is for left turn only - Middle lane is for straight on or right and the Right lane is for right turn only.

However, on this roundabout there is (almost) 2 exits past 12 o'clock. One on to the N4 heading west and then one down to get on to the N4 heading to the m50. While it is essentially the same exit there are 3 lanes leading into it, from my experience of using it regularly the middle lane should be used to get on the the N4 heading west though the amount of cars i've seen in the right hand lane try cut across 2 lanes! to get onto it is amazing.

That roundabout can be quite dangerous when people dont know how to use it, been cut off 3 or 4 times already.

J_R

Hi,

The explanation in the ROTR and my interpretation above only apply to bog standard roundabouts. It would be impossible to give a detailed explanation for each possible configuration in a simple rule book.

That is why put in the bit about non-standard. In that case, road markings should direct traffic to the appropriate lane. In theory a stranger should be able to approach ANY roundabout and by following the lane markings and signage be able to negotiate that roundabout with no problem.

If they can not. Then the basic design of the roundabout is faulty, the lane markings are incorrect or the roundabout is full of Gob-sh**s

If people followed basic rules, and where provided lane markings there should be no problem.

Wishbone Ash

J_R wrote:

It would be impossible to give a detailed explanation for each possible configuration in a simple rule book

I agree. It even states in the Rules of the Road that it is "not an interpretation of the law".
For a detailed legal interpretation one would need to refer to the various Acts, Statutory Instrumentsand and Bye-Laws made under the Acts.

Silvera

Here is a good way to learn the correct procedure at roundabouts;)

(Just pick one car in turn and watch how they go) ........

Sandwich

Thanks J_R for the news on the new ROTR which explains some of the confusion.

Didnt know there was a draft new ROTR. Looks like an effort is being made to clarify the matter. I had never heard of the 12 o'clock rule as mentioned in some of the threads, but guess it is being taught these days in anticipation of the new rules.

I shall change my practice and use it henceforth.

A few observations:
- many of us try to , and tend to think we, drive by the rules of the road, cursing those who dont. But maybe we all are driving to out own interpretation of unclear rules.

- using the 12 o'clock rule. Doesnt this make all left hand (outside/biggest radius) lanes redundant if the 1st exit is past 12 o'clock in the many two lane roundabouts? i.e. you should not be in that lane until you stop indicating right.

- anyone know the second roundabout opposite Wesley College after leaving the M50 going towards Dundrum - the one before the big 3 lane rbout with the entry to Dundrum SC? Traffic going straight thru always takes the right hand lane. If you take the left lane coming into it, traffic joining from the 1st exit nearly rams you, having assumed you were taking the 1st exit - even tho they see you join the rbout, and dont indicate that you want that exit.

J_R

Sandwich wrote:

- using the 12 o'clock rule. Doesnt this make all left hand (outside/biggest radius) lanes redundant if the 1st exit is past 12 o'clock.

If you are taking the 1st exit, irrespective what 0'clock it is, you indicate left and stay left.

For example. 2 lane roundabout, suppose 1st exit at 2 0'clock, 2nd exit at 4 0'clock, 3rd exit 6 0'clock.

For 1st exit, indicate left stay left.
For 2nd exit, indicate right take inside lane, indicate left pass 1st exit, cross over and exit. (Of course first Checking mirrors blind spot)

Sandwich

Draft ROTR says if turning right, then indicate right, not only if its the 2nd or susequent exit?

Sandwich

Have just read it again. Seems that 'new' ROTR is as ambiguous as the old one. Gives one instruction for the first exit, and another if turning right. Does not account for the situation where the 1st exit is also a right turn, so contradicts itself.

I give up.:(

J_R

Sandwich wrote:

the 1st exit is also a right turn, so contradicts itself.

I give up.:(

You are taking the next left turn so indicate left and follow the road.
Why put a label on it. Only confuses, as you say. Accept.

The 12 0'clock explanation has been used in the UK for quite some time

Wishbone Ash

Sandwich wrote:

I had never heard of the 12 o'clock rule as mentioned in some of the threads, but guess it is being taught these days in anticipation of the new rules.

I was taught the 12 O'Clock rule many years ago.

Sandwich wrote:

anyone know the second roundabout opposite Wesley College after leaving the M50 going towards Dundrum - the one before the big 3 lane rbout with the entry to Dundrum SC? Traffic going straight thru always takes the right hand lane

Is there sinage there indicating this procedure? The rules governing roundabouts apply if there is not signs indicating otherwise.

Unfortunately on some roundabouts, motorists have established procedures which may be technically wrong but seem to be acceptable. Another example is the Malahide Roundabout (going Southbound) on the R132 (Swords by-pass). Many of the drivers on the left lane take the 3rd exit (Dublin in 2 O'Clock position)) having passed 1st (Malahide) and 2nd (Feltrim). It seems to be considered normal there.

Seth Brundle

Another example is the one at the Tesco Dundrum. Two lanes onto roundabout (from M50 direction) but traffic wanting to come off at the 3rd exit (1 O Clock direction) approaches the roundabout in the left lane and rarely indicates.

real_484

should check out the Jack lynch tunnel roundabout, absolute free for all. It is layed out very well all you have to do is follow the road/lane markings it is the f**Ker the travel all around the outside of the roundabout and cut everyone up that is the problem. If you want to see an accident it is the place to go. The basic rules of the road apply to it but if it is your first time on it four lannes of madness and mayhem.

_Kaiser_

I've found that with the amount of muppets on the road who don't indicate AT ALL on roundabouts is the biggest problem (the area around Blanch SC is a perfect example). If you hit the horn they look at you with a confused look

Though lane disipline and indicating in general is woeful in this country. I was coming down a road on Friday - 2 lanes, left for straight ahead, right for turning right - and just about to make the turn when the middle aged oul fella in the car to the left of mine decides he's going right too and nearly ran into the side of me (cue lots of "colorful language" on my part).

Me I've started to err on the side of caution on some of these not-quite-90-degree-exit roundabouts, ie: I'll indicate right until passing the 1st exit and then left coming to the 2nd. I find people behind tend to allow you to complete the manoeuver easier this way and most exits of these type are designed for you to merge from that lane so you don't have to make any drastic moves to hug the left kerb as you exit. The key is signalling in good time and watching the mirror before and while you move.

It's the same with dipped lights.. always on, regardless of the weather but the amount of idiots still driving around at speed in the dark/overcast/wet with no lights or parking lights - including trucks! :eek: - is staggering.

JamesM

Talking about roundabouts - What does anybody think of the new markings on the roundabout at the Tallaght exit of the M50 - Mainly coming from Templeogue to Tallaght or the opposite direction. Cars still go up the left lane and then cut over to the right to continue around the roundabout - even though there is a solid white line. Every time I have been on it there has almost been an accident.
Jim.

Del2005

Sandwich wrote:

- anyone know the second roundabout opposite Wesley College after leaving the M50 going towards Dundrum - the one before the big 3 lane rbout with the entry to Dundrum SC? Traffic going straight thru always takes the right hand lane. If you take the left lane coming into it, traffic joining from the 1st exit nearly rams you, having assumed you were taking the 1st exit - even tho they see you join the rbout, and dont indicate that you want that exit.

This annoys the hell out of me too, people go into the 2nd lane for going straight on a with the 2nd exit at 12o'clock. The latest problem now is people indicating right coming to it and then going straight on:mad: I just treat it as it should be done, stay left and indicate when past the fist exit, while checking all mirrors and looking over shoulders for muppets who can't do it properly and then blow their horn at me But I just ignore them as they are wrong.

J_R

Del2005 wrote:

This annoys the hell out of me too, people go into the 2nd lane for going straight on a with the 2nd exit at 12o'clock. The latest problem now is people indicating right coming to it and then going straight on:mad:

Me 2. Above all the "Make up your own Rules" this must rank as the most idiotic and stupid.

Do the muppets not realise a right indicator signal means "That you are going to turn right." Nothing else.

The rules of the road state you can overtake on the left

When the driver ahead has moved out and given a right turn signal, and you intend to go straight ahead or turn left.

So, any following traffic can legally attempt to pass said muppet on the left. Would be silly to try, but if they did and an accident happened muppet would be mostly to blame.

If in the driving test they indicate right then left for going straight ahead they get a Grade 3 fault. (And rightly so)

Jumpy

The one thing that a lot of drivers in this country dont seem to get is the fact that you must NEVER cross a lane line on a roundabout unless you are leaving at a single lane exit, and only ever when you are about to exit the roundabout.
The amount of people that veer into my lane so they dont have to steer as much is phenomenal.

Wishbone Ash

Jumpy wrote:

The one thing that a lot of drivers in this country dont seem to get is the fact that you must NEVER cross a lane line on a roundabout unless you are leaving at a single lane exit, and only ever when you are about to exit the roundabout.
The amount of people that veer into my lane so they dont have to steer as much is phenomenal.

I don't know about that Jumpy. At a busy roundabout in my area, one must approach the roundabout in the right lane to take the 3rd or 4th exit (as normal) The 3rd exit has 3 exit lanes but when one gets half way around the roundabout the left and centre lane are designated for the 3rd exit forcing one to cross to the centre lane. (The right lane becomes designated for the 4th exit (i.e. from where I entered).

If one were not permitted to cross lanes, why do they normally have broken white lines.

Jumpy

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I don't know about that Jumpy. At a busy roundabout in my area, one must approach the roundabout in the right lane to take the 3rd or 4th exit (as normal) The 3rd exit has 3 exit lanes but when one gets half way around the roundabout the left and centre lane are designated for the 3rd exit forcing one to cross to the centre lane. (The right lane becomes designated for the 4th exit (i.e. from where I entered).

If one were not permitted to cross lanes, why do they normally have broken white lines.

How many lanes enter the roundabout?
You should be going from the right lane direct to the center lane if there is two and no way to exit on all three on the other side. The markings on the road should be directing you to do so. Otherwise the roundabout must provide the ability to exit on all three lanes of the third exit. You should NEVER be forced to cross across another lane, unless there is a single lane exit. If you are, that roundabout needs to be reported as dangerous to the council.
I suggest you take a close look at that roundabout next time you are there.

BrianD3

J_R wrote:

Me 2. Above all the "Make up your own Rules" this must rank as the most idiotic and stupid.

Do the muppets not realise a right indicator signal means "That you are going to turn right." Nothing else.

What if the 3rd exit is at or before 12 o'clock. I have never seen this but there are a lot of "unusual" roundabout designs around so it wouldn't surprise me.

Re: 3 lane roundabouts and crossing white lines. What Wishbone Ash says is correct, there are roundabouts out there where even though you start off in a correct lane you are forced to make a lane change as you go around the roundabout. The N4/M50 rounabout used to be like this. If you were heading south along the M50 and wished to head west at the N4 turnoff you would find this scenario. Thankfully they have now changed the layout so this is no longer is the case. I reckon it can be a difficult and sometimes impossible to design and clearly mark out a 3 lane roundabout so that nobody ever has to cross a white line of they start out in the correct lane.

It might be easier if the "white" lines were different colours depending on which direction you were coming from...then again different colours would cause major confusion for many drivers

HelterSkelter

Sandwich wrote:

...But I notice the general practice these days seems to be to indicate right if taking an exit that is more than half way round the r'bout ...

That's great, cos general practice in Dublin seems to be no indicators at all on roundabouts, really gets on my nerves.

J_R

BrianD3 wrote:

What if the 3rd exit is at or before 12 o'clock. I have never seen this but there are a lot of "unusual" roundabout designs around so it wouldn't surprise me.

Stay left, do not indicate. Indicate left after passing the 2nd exit