Cash game hands

The_Chopper

Playing a live texas pot limit cash game last night, blinds at 1/3 with an optional live straddle.

Hand 1:
Villian is a loose drunk aggressive player. He can make plays with any pair, any draw and is liable to call all ins with these same hands.
I limp in middle position with Jh10d.
Flop Q J 10 rainbow
Checked to me, I lead out for €15 (pot size bet)
Villian makes it €50 (€150 behind)
Folded back to me and I raise enough to stick him all in.
Good or bad play?

Hand 2:
I'm on the live straddle for €12 (stack of €500)
7 players limp, i check with 6d 2d (pot €96)
Player 1 and 2 check dark, I bet €25 dark before the flop comes down (a bit of a stupid play)
Flop comes 6s 5d 3c
Villian raises me to €75 (villian is an excellent player and is capable of raising me with any 2 cards).
I call (approx pot €240).
Turn Jd
I shove
What do we think of this play?

Hand 3:
Before the hand I have €1100, villian has me covered
I complete on the small blind with Kh 4h.
Flop Ad Kd 4s
Checked around to villian who bets €15
I raise to €50 (villian is an ultra agressive player if he hits any of the flop)
He calls
Turn 4c
I check - he bets pot (€120)
I call
River 8s
I check - he bets pot (€360)
(Here I can rule out AA, KK and AK as villian didn't raise preflop. He could have a 4, but I don't think he'd bet pot on the river with just a 4)
me?????

Gholimoli

all looks good.

Hand 2:
i dont like the preflop play but i like the shove.
if he is a good player he would raise you there with almost any two over cards knowing that you can have much of a hand playing blind.

hand 3:
shove .

BigCityBanker

Hand 1 - I would do the same as you. u r unlikely to be behind and he has a draw or top pair + poor kicker. If he flopped a stright well then thats just tought titty but i would have replicated your play.

Hand 2 - pump it up!!! he dont know wat to put u on and i think u were right - I would again have replicated your play.

Hand 3 - get a ruling there appears to be two 4s in the deck. In any event whats he gonna have to beat you with unless he slow played KK? Unlikely - it appears he has just paid you off.

BigCityBanker

Hand 1 - I would do the same as you. u r unlikely to be behind and he has a draw or top pair + poor kicker. If he flopped a stright well then thats just tough titty but i would have replicated your play.

Hand 2 - pump it up!!! he dont know wat to put u on and i think u were right - I would again have replicated your play.

Hand 3 - get a ruling there appears to be two 4s in the deck. In any event whats he gonna have to beat you with unless he slow played KK? Unlikely - it appears he has just paid you off.

ianmc38

Hand 1 your are ahead of a large range of hands here. KQ/KJ/KT will all do the same here, so shove is good.

Hand 2 is ok. He'll fold alot of better hands and you'll have outs if he calls.

Hand 3 You've ruled out every hand that beats you except A4. If you don't think he pots it here with a lone 4 then you're saying he must have a boat or air. AA/KK/88 will all be raised by a LAG preflop. Therefore, based on your read you should flat call as he won't put more money in unless you're beaten.

spectre

Gholimoli wrote:

hand 3:
shove .

Call. I don't like the shove. Surely -EV

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

all looks good.

Hand 2:
i dont like the preflop play but i like the shove.
if he is a good player he would raise you there with almost any two over cards knowing that you can have much of a hand playing blind.

hand 3:
shove .

What do you mean you don't like his preflop play in hand two. He's generating a nice bit of action with the straddle both check dark and he bets $25 dark what's wrong with this?

I do this a lot playing live to generate action.

ianmc38

NTL I don't see how betting 25 in the dark is in anyway +EV. Sure it may generate action but a huge proportion of the time you'll have to fold when someone raises as you'll have a bag of shíte in your hand.

I also pump the hell out of pots preflop when someone blind raises (when in position of course)

ntlbell

It's more of an image thing for me which works out +EV for the rest of session.

I like to give the impression of degenerate gamblooor nice and early.

Oh wait.

I am a degenerate gamblooor.

cardshark202

ianmc38 wrote:

I also pump the hell out of pots preflop when someone blind raises (when in position of course)

Thats called sickly punishing the blind raise.

Gholimoli

ntlbell wrote:

It's more of an image thing for me which works out +EV for the rest of session.

I like to give the impression of degenerate gamblooor nice and early.

Oh wait.

I am a degenerate gamblooor.

I actually thought he was joking here that’s why I didn’t respond.
Generating action?
Why would you want to generate action with a blind hand against two people who have seen their cards and oh yeah your out of position as well?
Only reason I can think of is if you are a degenerate gambloor .
are you?

Ste05

Gholi, I'm fairly sure he's talking about generating action later "in the session" as in, later hands, not this particular one...

EDIT: That old Gigabet chestnut of taking -EV spots now, that have an overall affect of +EV later in the session/ tournament

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

Gholi, I'm fairly sure he's talking about generating action later "in the session" as in, later hands, not this particular one...

EDIT: That old Gigabet chestnut of taking -EV spots now, that have an overall affect of +EV later in the session/ tournament

Ah come on Ste:
Do you not think there is cheaper ways of making an advertising play?
If the intention is to get the observant players to think that you’re a bad player then I don’t think it will work.
By betting blindly with your hand you’re not really advertising any particular flaws in your game or showing any area of weakness. You’re just saying that you’re not taking the game seriously. I think a good and observant opponent would not judge your game based on you betting with it blindly.
As for a none observant player, well they mostly just play their cards anyway so I think this is just waist of money IMO.

ianmc38

Well the Gigabet dilemma is actually a tournament related theory that directly correlates to stack size and has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

Generating action by betting blind is just spewing money/degenerate gambling. (Un)fortunately, I do both regularly so can see where he's coming from

AmarilloFats

Blind raise is fun.
If u can encourage some or all of table to join the party it's like a 3rd blinddddddd..........

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

Ah come on Ste:
Do you not think there is cheaper ways of making an advertising play?
If the intention is to get the observant players to think that you’re a bad player then I don’t think it will work.
By betting blindly with your hand you’re not really advertising any particular flaws in your game or showing any area of weakness. You’re just saying that you’re not taking the game seriously. I think a good and observant opponent would not judge your game based on you betting with it blindly.
As for a none observant player, well they mostly just play their cards anyway so I think this is just waist of money IMO.

Ah you sensible kids, you got no sense of adventure.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

Ah come on Ste:
Do you not think there is cheaper ways of making an advertising play?
If the intention is to get the observant players to think that you’re a bad player then I don’t think it will work.
By betting blindly with your hand you’re not really advertising any particular flaws in your game or showing any area of weakness. You’re just saying that you’re not taking the game seriously. I think a good and observant opponent would not judge your game based on you betting with it blindly.
As for a none observant player, well they mostly just play their cards anyway so I think this is just waist of money IMO.

There certainly is cheaper ways of advertising, I was just trying to point out that I didn't think NTL would be trying to generate action on this hand (that he hasn't even seen yet. :rolleyes:), but just to build an image that will hopefully get him paid off on later.

ianmc38 wrote:

Well the Gigabet dilemma is actually a tournament related theory that directly correlates to stack size and has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

I wasn't specifically referring to the "Gigabet Dilemna" just his general theory of how something that might be a -EV gamble now, can have +EV results in the future, be that a loose gambloor donkey image or whatever, it doesn't have to specifically relate to tournaments, and maybe I'll save this for another thread, (as this one is kinda getting hijacked, sorry Chopper), but I actually think it applies equally to cash games as to tournaments, (with alot of major adjustments obviously, but too boring to get into here and not strictly by the book so it's difficult to articulate properly here).

BigCityBanker

I always raise blind from UTG to the point where I get upset and complain if any of the players before me get knocked out or go for a p1ss or a smoke therby robbing me of my chance to raise it bling UTG. Id rather not hear the pros and cons of it as i will continue to do it.

It makes sense in my head anyway - and that is one sick place.. :eek:

NickyOD

There's nothing wrong with limping a lot preflop in very loose PL games.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Uh - huh: ya big fish.:D

This talk of generating action // advertising plays is madness IMHO. Blind straddles and dark raises OOP are rubbish plays that will cost you money in the short term.

As for long term gain?

IMO you should play every hand at a cash game hard. Give nothing easy away, make people pay to see more cards / get information / draw out on you - have the patience to wait for the right spot to make a move.

Players who talk of pumping up the action / gambling are really saying that they get bored when having to sit out a run of poor cards. I believe that in live cash games a patient, Tight - aggressive strategy pays off in the long run. Particularly when you see some of the rubbish play at Live games in Dublin and beyond.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

The_Chopper

It's a regular cash game I play in. The reason I blind bet and raise in this game is to generate action. Quite a few of the players generally pay me off when I have big hands because of this. I generally play my big hands similarly, implying that I haven't looked when I have.

Hand 1: I pushed he turned over Q 10 - I hit a J on the river (what a fish am I)
Hand 2: After much diliberating he calls with 6 7 (great call) - I river a 2
Hand 3: I push (bad play) he calls and turns over A4 - doh