indiginous irish martial arts

paxo

During a recent conversation the topic of indiginous martial arts came up. I was asked about indiginous Irish martial arts. I was of the opinion that if they had existed none had survived into modern times. However curiosity led me to Google and hence to the following


http://johnwhurley.com/hurleyframeset-2.html
http://www.geocities.com/glendoyle/bata/
www.irishbareknuckleboxing.com/
http://maol.tripod.com/index-2.html

Some of these appear to be of the historical recreation ilk a la medieval sword fighting, others appear to be a commercial venture teaching a particular art. Now growing up in Ireland in the 60's and 70's I had never heard of these arts. I am interested to know if these arts had survived in any form, are there attempts to recreate them from old photos, books etc or is it a reframeing of existing martial arts eg escrima.

On a lighter note I once participated in a bare knucke and stick fight back in 1977. If memory serves me right it was 15 minutes into the second half of the county minor hurling final.

Paxo
Paxo

Roper

paxo wrote:

On a lighter note I once participated in a bare knucke and stick fight back in 1977. If memory serves me right it was 15 minutes into the second half of the county minor hurling final.

LOL:D

People are constantly trying to reinvent or repackage things to sell sell sell, unfortunately.

I think its fair to assume that there was some sort of system of fighting, but whether it was a coherent system is doubtful. They really only originated in the 20th Century, and we were into firearms by then.:rolleyes:

pearsquasher

As an extra on the set of "King Arthur" in Wicklow a few year ago I ran into a lot of re-enactors, medieval recreationists and a few fellows who tried to extrapolate how one fought with the weapons available to celtic warrior types back in the day. The people with the most savvy were English re-enactors and Scottish stunt fighters who made a big effort to research chronicals and sagas about how things were done and it seems to me the physical movement was very similar to classical, Japanese battlefield arts as I understand them. Similar principles were used in terms of stances, footwork, shielding, economy of movement etc its just that the weapons and armour were slightly different.

Theres also the fact that schooling of war-arts in a structured manner took Japanese warrior society by storm in the middle ages unlike anywhere else and hence the arts were preserved, and evolved with technoogy, there, more so than in any other warring culture. Had the same happened in Ireland you would indeed see Irish martial arts embodied in continuous lineages but we don't so it all has to be extrapolated from text which means you'll never get the feel of the indiginous fighting system the way you do with a continuous Japanese lineage as transmittd through the Ryuha system.

crazy monkey

Hi ALL,

Every region in the world throughout history has produced some type of combat training for its fighters/military...whether it as advanced as the asian martial arts or way ahead of its time such as, the combat training of ancient roman legionniares, gladiators of rome, the spartans of greece, [incidently the weight of a soldier's pack was "invented" by the Greeks and is still more or less the same today], pankration style of professional fighting of greece, who knows?

I wouldn't put money against the Irish having such a system, how developed or for that matter recorded and passed on no one can really be sure....truth of truths is that historically we are the one nation you don't fcuk with!!!

We were not conquered by the romans [and one or two other empires ]when they were the strongest empire in the world and we have produced some of the best soldiers for hire throughout history....you'll never beat the Irish and all that....

As for dermot mc grath I hate hearing "rubbish" like this personally...bare knuckle boxing? you mean scrapping...
I can kill man with a shotgun, if the gun is loaded, cocked and I pull the trigger.

It doesn't make my trigger finger the most dangerous finger in Ireland or does it?

If you want to learn about bare knuckle boxing ask travellers- they really know about it historically....for a good introduction into the world of Irish bare knuckle boxing give - BARE KNUCKLE FIGHTER: Memories of the undefeated fighting champion of Ireland by Bartley Gorman, King of the Travellers with Peter Walsh....failing that research Donnybrook fair...
Remember the term Donnybrook is an old Dublin expression meaning a brawl/a prize fight or an all in [anything goes fight]....

I think dermot mc grath and JK might disagree about Irish MMA history....Anyway I hope I haven't offended anyone....least of all the greatest bare knuckle boxing in all the land....


Take it easy guys......

Dyr

that glenn doyle thing is a load of b****x in IMO, he used to call his ancient family art "usice beatha bata rince" or something but obviously someone clued him in that the name is a pigs ear grammatically speaking and he's changed it. Oh and he just happened to have done FMA before he revealed his ancient family art. Worra coinkydink.:rolleyes:

The sad thing is that any chancer over here could make up the same story and sell it to the americans, and then the real fun begins..."hey guys...im a black geansai in comhrac aonair bás na mcdonaigh"

FiannaGym.com

There are pleny of societies that never created a system of combat and plenty that don't engage in combat.

The notion that fighting, conflict, war, etc is in some way "hardwired" into humans is quite wrong.

Anyway, when Ireland was conquired by Britain they either stamped out whatever indiginous styles existed or none existed in the first place. I am aware of "stick figthing", etc,

Truthfully though societies that develop army style warfare (rather than the individual martial arts styles of asia) usually develop sports as their main training. I would much rather be in a war against 100 Karateka than 100 Hurlers or rugby players. This is typical of eiropean socities.

And that is where the notion of "indigionous" arts in Ireland is, although quiant, false. During the period where war arts were exploding across the world, when europe was in the dark ages, Ireland was the land of saints and scholars and pretty much single handedly preserved the teachings of the ancients (The Grecco-Roman kind). To that end Ireland IMHO has no indiginous arts but shared a kind of european style of combat. Ireland seems to be a cultural anomally (indeed it was BEING a colony in western europe) but was still completetly european. Hopefully Ireland can return to its position of arts and cultural, educational and scholarly, nutrality and peaceful capital of Europe!

All IMHO of course.

Peace
Pearse

Unpossible

I think a good way to find out how we used to fight is by:
Looking up any paintings/sketchs of Irish warriors (that were made back in the day).
Reading up on our folklore (Fionn & the fianna etc) to see what weapons were used (and possibly how they were used).
Getting a group of people who arent used to weapons together, giving them practice weapons (and armour) and leaving them duke it out for a while. Train like that for a year and you're bound to get better and have your own style.

Then to get the total feeling go out into a field on the side of a mountain, strip off (lot of celts fought naked), paint yourself blue if there is a particular god you want to impress and just start fighting.

So I'll be at the Gap in Dunloe in a years time waiting.....THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE....

Dyr

FiannaGym.com wrote:

There are pleny of societies that never created a system of combat and plenty that don't engage in combat.

The notion that fighting, conflict, war, etc is in some way "hardwired" into humans is quite wrong.

I am intrigued by this and wish to subsrcibe to your newsletter, expand a little please.

FiannaGym.com wrote:

"Truthfully though societies that develop army style warfare (rather than the individual martial arts styles of asia) usually develop sports as their main training. I would much rather be in a war against 100 Karateka than 100 Hurlers or rugby players. This is typical of eiropean socities."

Most of the societies i can think of relied on sound tactics and training to prosecute warfare. Sports played an important role in that it gave the society a pool of fit, motivated young men to fill its armies but was it used as the main training of an army? i cant think of many examples of that. Is archery a sport when its being practised rather than used in battle? Is swordsmanship? Equestrian skills? It's somewhat ambigous to call them sports when their primary purpose was still to aid in killing the neighbours and nicking their land.

Anywhoo this leads to another point fianna mentioned: that most "martial" arts arent really all that martial. If they were then weapons, communications and group tactics would be the order of the day not duking it out mano a mano

Quillo

Ireland appears to have always had a strong sword tradition. The Scottish adventurer and renowned swordsman Donald McBane noted 5 or 6 schools of arms (I can't remember the number) in Limerick when he set up his school there in the 17th century.

Martial arts in Ireland of the time were heavily influenced by the various European schools of the day going back to the German authors of work on heavy battle swords and tactics the 15th century (Talhoffer, Meyer etc) through to the emergence of the later French and Italian masters.

Neville Gawley at The Limerick School of Arms is conducting ongoing research into the early use of the sword in Ireland and some good links and resources can be found on his website http://www.skynet.ie/%7Envl/cfi/main.php

Unpossible

Sports played an important role in that it gave the society a pool of fit, motivated young men to fill its armies but was it used as the main training of an army

I was told the finnish version of baseball is designed to help train snipers (and I suppose regular soilders too). The idea is that hitting a ball thats comming vertically down infront of you is tougher.

than 100 Hurlers or rugby players.

I hadnt thought of hurling being related to warfare before, but it does make a lot of sense. Isnt there a welsh hurling where you have to bring a small metal ball out of the village in order to win? And Ive heard of a Football like sport in Ireland where is was played between parishs, winner gets the ball into the opositions town square.


I think what would have helped in the past is knowing your weapon, the Finns for instance were deadly with axes, the reason being they were woodsmen being rasied cutting things (Vikings too crafted their ships using mainly axes). Also look at Gurka's (spelling?), they live with their knives. So I think a Celt/Knight would learn by always having a weapon in their hands (that and having a bunch of Duels, Battles, fights etc where the best survive).

paxo

Unpossible wrote:

I.


I hadnt thought of hurling being related to warfare before, but it does make a lot of sense. Isnt there a welsh hurling where you have to bring a small metal ball out of the village in order to win? And Ive heard of a Football like sport in Ireland where is was played between parishs, winner gets the ball into the opositions town square.


.

I once read that hurling was played between two villages, with the object of getting the ball to the opposing village to win. The interesting bit was that barrels of whiskey were provided to fire up the players and if you didnt play "hard" enough your hurley was taken from you. These games went on for hours at a time. Apparently serious injuries were commnplace.

pma-ire

paxo wrote:

I once read that hurling was played between two villages, with the object of getting the ball to the opposing village to win. The interesting bit was that barrels of whiskey were provided to fire up the players and if you didnt play "hard" enough your hurley was taken from you. These games went on for hours at a time. Apparently serious injuries were commnplace.

Modern Hurling and Gaelic Football were inventions of the Gaelic League so that us Irish would stop playing soccor and rugby!! We could just as easy have an All Ireland Tiddly Winks Championship!!! As that was the suggestion of the Arch Bishop at the time cause he felt Hurling sounded too ruff

Hurling was plucked out of the fables as a Celtic past-time and in those sotries it did have combative ellements.

That Bata stuff is a looney also!! While there may have been people handy with the stick it was mainly due to the fact that they were living in a more volitile environment and carrying the stick as a walking aid was both the fashion and practical, so why not use it!!

Valmont

It just has to be said that when I saw the title "indiginous Irish martial arts", I almost spat my tea over the screen:D

Dave Joyce

Apparently the Chinese government have denied the found the body of what is believed to be an Irish Celtic warrior a good while ago. His height/dress/weaponary were totally different to what would have been found in China in those times and he was also supposed to have red hair and a beard. Considering what Irish herbal medicine was like maybe we could also have had an influence on Chinese medicine.

smacl

pma-ire wrote:

That Bata stuff is a looney also!! While there may have been people handy with the stick it was mainly due to the fact that they were living in a more volitile environment and carrying the stick as a walking aid was both the fashion and practical, so why not use it!!

Stick fighting was very common in rural Ireland between the 17th and 19th century, see "The Irish Faction Fighters of the 19th Century", published by Anvil Books, Dublin, 1975, for an in-depth account of the practice. Faction fighting was a way of resolving disputes at a time when the law was not seen to serve the needs of the local people. It typically took place at fairs and other social gatherings where two or more factions would lay into each other with sticks. I'd guess given the extended time frame that this happened over, those that survived delevoped an amount of skill, much in the same way any other martial art did. My understanding is that a number of Spanish sword instructors were also involved in training the use of sticks to the Irish peasantry early on, in the hope that they would be useful against rising up against the protestant English. If you read 'The Gangs of New York', you'll note that the Irish gangs were in fact the remnants of Irish faction fighting gangs, and are frequently referred to as such (e.g. the dead rabbits).

Given that martial arts is about developing fighting skills, and most established civilisations have survived to be where they are today through fighting, I would guess that most countries with a significant indiginous population have some form of indiginous martial arts.

pma-ire

Dave Joyce wrote:

Apparently the Chinese government have denied the found the body of what is believed to be an Irish Celtic warrior a good while ago. His height/dress/weaponary were totally different to what would have been found in China in those times and he was also supposed to have red hair and a beard. Considering what Irish herbal medicine was like maybe we could also have had an influence on Chinese medicine.

Sounds like the script of Highlander 3??

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110027/plotsummary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlander_III:_The_Sorcerer

I know it's Japan but still

I do remember reading that the Celts came from Indo-European and , and travelled through parts of India and China for trade!!

http://www.natall.com/national-vanguard/115/celts1.html

Thats the end of todays history lesson!! I want a 5000 word essay on it by tomorrow!!!

Black Swan

I would wonder to what extent 700 years of occupation may have affected the transmission of any indiginous Irish martial arts?

pma-ire

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

I would wonder to what extent 700 years of occupation may have affected the transmission of any indiginous Irish martial arts?

Look what happened to Korea!

I see South Korea as being very much the same as Ireland in that it tried to reinvent itself when it gained freedom from Japan using loose claims towards old listed arts and games not really practiced anymore in that country.

TheBardWest

Reviving a (very) old thread here. Wondering if in recent years there have been any more developments on this front: i.e. anyone offering classes/training in any kind of traditional Irish forms? I understand that most, if not all, are some form of reconstruction vs. a linear, unbroken tradition. Even so, would be interesting and fun!

gstack

on a slightly related note

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=59475100

book about the heyday of wrestling in the US.
One of the styles prominent was Collar and elbow wrestling which originally came from Ireland. Interesting descriptions of matches between collar and elbow wrestlers, catch wrestlers and Greco Roman stylists.

cletus

I was under the impression that Collar and Elbow wrestling was Cornish in origin, not Irish

gstack

Nah read the book , I think there were a lot of different styles on the go at the time in the US , Cumberland, Lancashire, Collar and Elbow .

Catch wrestling apparently is an amalgamation of a lot of these styles.
Cornish wrestling was mentioned as well.

paganist

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/who-knew-collar-elbow-wrestling-still-existed-well-sort-1009588/

this scuffler fella seems to be interesting