Can I sell my house as a 4 bed??? Legal implications?

Conar

Hi All.

I'm just looking for a bit of advice before selling my house.
Originally when I was buying it (new build), it was listed as a 4 bed. That changed to a 3 bed with study before I actually finished the purchase.....something to do with planning permission.

The room is big enough for a single bed or nursery or whatever but I am actually using it as a study at the moment.

We have had 2 estate agents out valuing the house. One of them seems happy to put it up as a 4 bed. The other said that we would have to put it up as a 3 bed with study.
They both valued it at the same price so thats not my worry, I just reckon that people would be more likely to come see it if it was described as a 4 bed.
Once they are here they would see for themselves that you would get a single bed in there easily.

Anyhoo, are there any laws/rules/regs regarding this that I should be aware of?
Can anyone advise?

jdivision

I believe there is a regulation stipulating a minimum size to call something a bedroom. In addition some attic conversions don't qualify as a bedroom - the eaves height isn't enough.

Victor

Two things.

The planning permission may specify it is a 3-bed. Ivor Callely is selling his Cork house and has to describe 3 rooms as "store rooms".

The size of the room may not justify it as sufficiently large to legally be a bedroom.

Conar

I understand that it is legally a study, not a bedroom.
Can I call it a 4 bed though and point out that the 4th room is not legally a bedroom?
I really think that the 4th bedroom would make people come and look, there are less around than 3 beds. Obviously when the sale is going through it will be as a 3 bed.

Idleater

Hmm.

Read what you yourself posted and tell me what you think...

Conar wrote:

I understand that it is legally a study, not a bedroom.

Conar wrote:

Can I call it a 4 bed though and point out that the 4th room is not legally a bedroom?

Conar wrote:

Obviously when the sale is going through it will be as a 3 bed.

Now, I am not in the market for a car, but if I was and I was hypothetically looking for a BMW 7 series, and you offered me a bmw 5 series, saying it was a 7 series, do you think I would take you seriously? Especially since you want to charge me for a 7 series, and then to complete the deal, give me a 5 series?

Hmm. I will let you figure that one out.

*cough* no *cough*

L.

superman12345

Firstly, I do not believe the term "4 bedrooms" etc. would constitute a term or condition of the contract.
Estate agents make sure all their representations are "mere puffs" and are not actionable (I've come across a number of houses with non-habitable rooms which are called bedrooms anyway - if the EA were pressed he'd say "Oh gees, I never knew")

Far more importantly however: internal alterations to a house, provided there is no change of use, do not require Planning Permission.
So you can call it what you like - whether that is the "Room of love" the "Torture Pit" or "Bedroom #4".

The reason that a room is called "storage" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) is
a. it is non-habitable (i.e the ceiling is below 8' high (subject to certain conditions) or it does not have room ventilation.
b. calling it a habitable room may require additional Fire Certificate requirements which if not implimented will invalidate house insurance etc.
(e.g. a two storey house can allow fire escape from the first floor through windows, however for a 3 storey house, one must use internal fire escapes with 1 hour fire protection)

Furthermore, I have never heard of anything minimum size requirements for bedrooms - they most certainly are not in the Building Regulations. Some minimum size requirements do apply for Dept. of the Environment Guidelines which are required for Section 23 tax relief etc. as well as in Nursing Homes and Sheltered Housing.

The upshot of all that? You are completely entitled to call it a 4 bedroom house - provided you have a two storey house, and in the extra room, there is a window large enough to escape from (It should have an unobstructed opening section not less than 850mm high x 500mm wide – secured by readily openable fastenings with cill height 800mm – 1100mm over floor level) , there is adequate ventilation and the ceiling height is 8' for 2/3 of the floor area.

Conar

nereid wrote:

Now, I am not in the market for a car, but if I was and I was hypothetically looking for a BMW 7 series, and you offered me a bmw 5 series, saying it was a 7 series, do you think I would take you seriously? Especially since you want to charge me for a 7 series, and then to complete the deal, give me a 5 series?

Hmm. I will let you figure that one out.

*cough* no *cough*

L.

The house is what it is.
If you had some decking out the back and the legislation said that it had to be 1 sq foot bigger in order for you to call it decking, would you not still want to mention it in order to attact buyers.
The room is big enough for a bedroom, therefore I would like people to know so they might want to take a look. I am not talking about conning anyone, the house is more than 1250 sq foot so I am not trying to flog a grany flat as a mansion.
I simply want to know if there are any legal implications for me if I put it on MYHOME as a 4 bed and mention in the notes that the 4rth room is a study with ample space for a single bed..
Any helpful suggestions/advise would really be appreciated.

Conar

Thanks for the reply Superman.
I should have been more clear about the room too.....
The house is a 2 storey mid terrace.
The room is approx 7ftx9ft and it it is upstairs at the front of the house with the same type window that is on one of the rear bedrooms.
It has the same ceiling height as all other rooms.
It has probably the easiest escape route of any of the upstairs rooms.
Its has a built in recessed double wardrobe (thus not taking up space in the room), but with shelves rather than clothes hanging space.

I honestly think that anyone that looked at the house would agree that it is a fine size for a small bedroom or nursery.
I simply feel that more people would come to see it if I described it as a 4 bed rather than a 3 bed with study.
Anyone else got an opinion on this?

Idleater

Conar wrote:

I simply feel that more people would come to see it if I described it as a 4 bed rather than a 3 bed with study.

I apologise, and I do agree with your interest in getting as many people to view the property as possible but I think that you should be cautious about this. A legal bedroom or not, has far more concequences than a "deck" or even a "landscaped garden".

The reason being that suppose two persons x and y have a bidding battle and one wins out, they show up in the solicitors and find that this house is in fact legally a 3 bed and not a 4 bed which they were bidding on, that is exactly like a car auction where a 7 series is advertised, a 5 series is wheeled out and the bidding starts at the 7 series level.

While there is nothing legally wrong with the offer to sell, because all parties have viewed the property and bid on the same bricks and mortar, the legal entity that they get at the end is different to what they thought originally.

I would suggest you talk it over with your solicitor and see what they think.

Of course, you could inform each viewer that comes to look at the place that they are only looking at a legal 3 bed but you put 4 bed to get them to come out and look.

L.

The_Conductor

How about 3 bedroom and a study (and in brackets "with conversion potential as required"). Personally I would be very interested in a house that had a seperate study/drawing room- but then again maybe thats just me?

superman12345

From OP's description, there is no problem in calling it a bedroom.


DO NOT WRITE:
"with conversion potential" - this indicates that some steps are necessary. They are not.

Nereid's comments from today at 9.12 are also very incorrect.

THIS IS A PLANNING CONTROL AND BUILDING REGULATIONS ISSUE NOT A LEGAL ISSUE.

The Planning Dept. do not care what colour your carpets are, if you have a t.v. in your kitchen or if you sleep in the utility room. So, you can call it a bedroom.

Secondly, even if the room could never be a bedroom, the buyer buys as is. Caveat Emptor.
The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act (which would apply to cars for example) DOES NOT APPLY TO PROPERTY.

kippy

I am in agreement with Smmcarrick,
Its a three bed with study (with conversion potential)
Superman1234, steps are obviously required to convert the study to a bedroom,
moving furniture would be the least of these but the OP also points out that the built in wardrobe is a book case now as opposed to being a warddrobe.
I think in the present climate you will have no problem getting people to buy the house and personally if I spotted that it had a study I too would be also drawn to it with the thinking that I could convert it if needs be.
Kippy

The_Conductor

Superman1234 - in the Ivor Callely case, 3 rooms (including one en-suite) which had been described as bedrooms were subsequently redescribed as "storerooms" which was their designation in the original planning permission, on the basis that their permission did not allow them to be used for permanent accommodation purposes. While they are bedrooms for all intensive purposes, they can not be sold as such.

I am interested in what you are saying though- I'd be grateful if you could provide links to the source of the information you are quoting.

Shane

superman12345

Calling a particular room "a bedroom" constitutes an internal alteration (if even that).
From the Department of the Environment Website,
http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/doeipub.nsf/0/559a098a4b8ace5580256faf00394f01/$FILE/PL5 Doing work around the House.pdf#search="internal alterations planning"

13. Can I carry out internal alteration, external repairs
and maintenance?
You can carry out any internal alteration you wish as long
as you do not alter the domestic use of the house.
External works of repair, maintenance and improvement
such as painting or replastering do not need planning
permission so long as they do not materially affect the
external appearance, thus rendering the appearance
inconsistent with neighbouring buildings. You may need
approval for certain external alteration e.g. a new
connection to a sewer.

Regarding Habitable Rooms:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI497Y1997.html
This is from the Building Regulations S.I. 497/1997 (which are currently in effect):
"habitable room" means a room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area of less than 6.5 m2;

That's the definition in the S.I. - you'll have to google it to get additional information (I don't have time at moment).

If you really have difficulty believing me, ask questions on archiseek.com.
The question as to whether a "4 bed" or "3 bed + study" sells better is a separate issue.

Conar

Thanks guys.
I was just looking at the original brochure for the estate.
It lists the houses as 4 bed townhouses so I think that I'll do the same and point out that it is actually classed as a 3 bed with study.
I'll keep an eye on this thread though so if anyone has any more info or advice I'd love to hear it.

Idleater

conar wrote:

The room is approx 7ftx9ft

superman12345 wrote:

"habitable room" means a room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area of less than 6.5 m2;

Does the 6.5 figure apply to a kitchen or any room?

7' x 9' = 63sqft?
63 sqft = 5.852 sq m

L.

silverside

i am pretty sure that many of the houses in dublin 12 (built in the 40s/50s/60s) have 3rd bedrooms of that size (8ft by 8ft or smaller) and they are always described as bedrooms. ok there may be a technical issue that they are built a long time and there was no problem selling them/using them as bedrooms at the time.

superman12345

Silverside:
i am pretty sure that many of the houses in dublin 12 (built in the 40s/50s/60s) have 3rd bedrooms of that size (8ft by 8ft or smaller) and they are always described as bedrooms. ok there may be a technical issue that they are built a long time and there was no problem selling them/using them as bedrooms at the time.

Building Regulations only came into effect in '92, which would give requirements. etc. They are prospective in nature and not retrospective.
(Though, they may be used in Tort Law, as evidence of what is reasonable - and thus gain some status on buildings which precede their coming into effect)
Even Planning Laws only came into effect in '63 (which would proscribe usage).


nereid
Does the 6.5 figure apply to a kitchen or any room?
The kitchen only:
Otherwise the legislation would have been written thus:
'"habitable room" means a room, not having a floor area of less than 6.5 m2, used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen'

Also note:
I am almost certain that Estate Agents' Bunf is non binding.
Even if the room failed to be habitable (no escape window etc.), and one called it a bedroom, you can't sue the Estate Agent (or the seller). Estate Agents almost always call rooms in converted attics bedrooms - despite the fact that they fail to meet Building Regs. This practice is very, very common. And the utter lack of knowledge of the area would not be allowed by Estate Agencies, if it meant that every 2 days they are sued for €200k.

Also, it's been a little while since I did Contract Law, but I'm quite sure that anything said by an Estate Agent is to be taken as a "mere representation" or "mere puff" (to use the legal terms), rather than a "representation", which would be binding on the Agent/Principal.

Idleater

superman12345 wrote:

nereid
Does the 6.5 figure apply to a kitchen or any room?
The kitchen only:
Otherwise the legislation would have been written thus:
'"habitable room" means a room, not having a floor area of less than 6.5 m2, used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen'

Cheers for clearing that up.

Conar, I duely stand corrected and you have a fine 4 bed on your hands. My best wishes to you on the sale, and I have no doubt that the buyers will be happy with what they are buying.

Meanwhile, overnight, my paltry 2 bed, has been miracoulsy converted to a 6 bed.

L.