Freezeout with 85% Payout Gteed

Kendriver

1.MK tournaments (Currently running Pub games in Maynooth & Kilcock.

2.Commercial
3.Friday October 6th -Hattons,Garadice,Kilcock,Co Meath.
4.Registration from 7.30pm - Game starts @9pm
5.Max 100 players
6.Freezeout
7.100 Euro
8.85% of income to prizefund - 5% to the venue - 10% to the organisers.
9.12000 st chips.(6000 at registration) (6000 any time after 1st hand is played)
10.Blind levels start 25/50 and increase every 20 minutes thereafter.
11.50% to winner - 25% to 2nd - 15% to 3rd and last 5 at final table get 2%.
12.Self Deal
13.Yes a rules sheet will be given to each player
14.TD is Ken Walsh
15.TD

---

We are holding the above tournament in response to demand from players who wish to play something different than "rebuy" pub games,we are experienced organisers and hope we get support to enable this event become a monthly event.All our games are well organised and hopefully our existing customers can testify to this.

Ken Walsh - 087 7900250

LuckyLloyd

Kendriver wrote:

1.MK tournaments (Currently running Pub games in Maynooth & Kilcock.

2.Commercial
3.Friday October 6th -Hattons,Garadice,Kilcock,Co Meath.
4.Registration from 7.30pm - Game starts @9pm
5.Max 100 players
6.Freezeout
7.100 Euro
8.85% of income to prizefund - 5% to the venue - 10% to the organisers.
9.12000 st chips.(6000 at registration) (6000 any time after 1st hand is played)10.Blind levels start 25/50 and increase every 20 minutes thereafter.
11.50% to winner - 25% to 2nd - 15% to 3rd and last 5 at final table get 2%.
12.Self Deal
13.Yes a rules sheet will be given to each player
14.TD is Ken Walsh
15.TD

---

We are holding the above tournament in response to demand from players who wish to play something different than "rebuy" pub games,we are experienced organisers and hope we get support to enable this event become a monthly event.All our games are well organised and hopefully our existing customers can testify to this.

Ken Walsh - 087 7900250

I know that I am being picky here but isn't this actually a double - chance tourney??

Goodluck2me

Kendriver wrote:

1.MK tournaments (Currently running Pub games in Maynooth & Kilcock.

2.Commercial
3.Friday October 6th -Hattons,Garadice,Kilcock,Co Meath.
4.Registration from 7.30pm - Game starts @9pm
5.Max 100 players
6.Freezeout
7.100 Euro
8.85% of income to prizefund - 5% to the venue - 10% to the organisers.
9.12000 st chips.(6000 at registration) (6000 any time after 1st hand is played)
10.Blind levels start 25/50 and increase every 20 minutes thereafter.
11.50% to winner - 25% to 2nd - 15% to 3rd and last 5 at final table get 2%.
12.Self Deal
13.Yes a rules sheet will be given to each player
14.TD is Ken Walsh
15.TD

---

We are holding the above tournament in response to demand from players who wish to play something different than "rebuy" pub games,we are experienced organisers and hope we get support to enable this event become a monthly event.All our games are well organised and hopefully our existing customers can testify to this.

Ken Walsh - 087 7900250

this is bit steep if you get 100 runner for eg 4250, 2125, 1275, 425 425. also you dont have blind structures up.

MrPillowTalk

Kendriver wrote:

we are experienced organisers and hope we get support to enable this event become a monthly event.All our games are well organised and hopefully our existing customers can testify to this.

Ken Walsh - 087 7900250

I somehow doubt you are experienced tournament directors. Taking a 15% reg and not even supplying dealers, calling a double chance a freezout and setting a payout that appears wuite top heavy if you get any sort of numbers.

Looks like a badly organised pub game to me.

LuckyLloyd

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I somehow doubt you are experienced tournament directors. Taking a 15% reg and not even supplying dealers, calling a double chance a freezout and setting a payout that appears wuite top heavy if you get any sort of numbers.

Looks like a badly organised pub game to me.

Testify.

ligger

Kendriver wrote:

1.MK tournaments (Currently running Pub games in Maynooth & Kilcock.

.All our games are well organised and hopefully our existing customers can testify to this.

I played in ONE of these well run events once. Got 2,000 starting stack. When busted and paid for rebuy got 1,500 (blinds 100 & 200 at the time). Why not 2,000 I asked. Reply you got 500 "Early Bird" chips. Well run is not a Comment I would use.

Kendriver

I,m sorry ligger if you felt our tournaments weren,t up to scratch,in reply to your issue about the rebuy amounts I agree with you 100% and as a result of your comments on the night we done away with the early bird chip of 500 and now everyone gets 2000 starting chips and rebuys are also 2000 chips.I suppose I should call the tournament Double Chance and if that makes us get any more customers then ok it can be double chance the main point here is that it is a Freezeout and there will be no rebuys ! As I explained in my first posting the reason we are running this is due to demand from existing players and as everyone knows the more that play the better the prizefund.I make no apologies about the tournament prizefund - why shouldn,t the winner get paid big money ?

MrPillowTalk

Kendriver wrote:

I,m sorry ligger if you felt our tournaments weren,t up to scratch,in reply to your issue about the rebuy amounts I agree with you 100% and as a result of your comments on the night we done away with the early bird chip of 500 and now everyone gets 2000 starting chips and rebuys are also 2000 chips.I suppose I should call the tournament Double Chance and if that makes us get any more customers then ok it can be double chance the main point here is that it is a Freezeout and there will be no rebuys ! As I explained in my first posting the reason we are running this is due to demand from existing players and as everyone knows the more that play the better the prizefund.I make no apologies about the tournament prizefund - why shouldn,t the winner get paid big money ?

why should the prizepool be dipped for 15% if its self deal?

carfax

MrPillowTalk wrote:

why should the prizepool be dipped for 15% if its self deal?

This is also a 15% deduction which makes it almost a 20% registration fee.

Kendriver

As explained the venue gets 5% and this is for the hire of the function room,the supply of food at the break -(Sausages,Chicken wings).If we get 100 players then 500 euros is steep and should this be the case then I will see to it that 250 euros is added to the prizefund.10% to the organisers to me is not an unfair take bearing in mind that we will start setting up at 7pm and probably wont get finished cleaning up until 3am (8hrs x 4 people - 32 man hours)If we get the 100 players great but if only 50 turn up its a bad pay day so what would you think we should take ? As I,ve sais in my original post this is a commercial game and I,ve been totally transparent and up front in relation to this game.
I,m seriously wondering why I,m justifying myself to fellow boarders though,maybe be better off just sitting and slagging everyone elses tournaments off !

carfax

Kendriver wrote:

As explained the venue gets 5% and this is for the hire of the function room,the supply of food at the break -(Sausages,Chicken wings).If we get 100 players then 500 euros is steep and should this be the case then I will see to it that 250 euros is added to the prizefund.10% to the organisers to me is not an unfair take bearing in mind that we will start setting up at 7pm and probably wont get finished cleaning up until 3am (8hrs x 4 people - 32 man hours)If we get the 100 players great but if only 50 turn up its a bad pay day so what would you think we should take ? As I,ve sais in my original post this is a commercial game and I,ve been totally transparent and up front in relation to this game.
I,m seriously wondering why I,m justifying myself to fellow boarders though,maybe be better off just sitting and slagging everyone elses tournaments off !

Didn't mean to sound like I was slagging off.

You're right, you are being honest about what you are taking which is better than a lot of organisers.

Best of luck, hope it goes well.

MrPillowTalk

Kendriver wrote:

As explained the venue gets 5% and this is for the hire of the function room,the supply of food at the break -(Sausages,Chicken wings).If we get 100 players then 500 euros is steep and should this be the case then I will see to it that 250 euros is added to the prizefund.10% to the organisers to me is not an unfair take bearing in mind that we will start setting up at 7pm and probably wont get finished cleaning up until 3am (8hrs x 4 people - 32 man hours)If we get the 100 players great but if only 50 turn up its a bad pay day so what would you think we should take ? As I,ve sais in my original post this is a commercial game and I,ve been totally transparent and up front in relation to this game.
I,m seriously wondering why I,m justifying myself to fellow boarders though,maybe be better off just sitting and slagging everyone elses tournaments off !

You should justify it because you started a thread on the tournament in the forum. Everyone elses tounaments dont have a 20% reg with no dealers, exactly what requires 32 man hours to set up?

lets say 2 people for an hour to set up tables beforehand.
2 people to walk the floor one as TD one dealing with rebuys/topups.

Just because its transparent doesnt mean its not a rip off.

pokerscene

I agree with Kendriver, What would be a fair percentage for the guys who run pub tournies to take? Once a organiser is up front on the percentage they are taking you can choose weather or not to play. Not only has he labour costs but also equipment, Food, Transport and aslo how much time does it take to source a venue. Pub tournaments are a different game and attract a different player. Most people who play their first live games will play in these and then move on to card clubs and casinos. They are a good way of keeping new blood coming into the game which is vital for any sport. I think any less than 15% and it is not worth the hassle. Go easy on us guys.

yopnailbrush

Kendriver

What numbers are you expecting?

Kendriver

I,m hoping for somewhere between 80 and 100 players,we have a core group of around 60 regulars and hope to increase that using the "Freezeout" format and welcome all new visitors.

Regards,
Ken

Mellor

pokerscene wrote:

I think any less than 15% and it is not worth the hassle.

Well to be honest, is €85 +€15. So its nearly 18%.
I dont think that you could call the work put in 32 man hours. and even at 32 hours @10%, you'd make over €30 an hour each. Not bad.

As for the venue taking 5%. Thats a little harsh, you are providing 100 extra customers. Most venue would be happy to see you coming.

I'm not giving out, but there are alot of bad pub games out there. Doing it right lets you shine as a really good game. Its only my advice.

yopnailbrush

Well Kendriver has spent a amount of time advertising on this site and others already.... Should he not get paid for it??? He is providing a tournament which looks quite good. If you don't like the sturucture don't go I think its great to know up front what he is doing!!!!

Kendriver

Thank you to all players who supported our first monthly 100 euro Freezeout in Hattons last Friday.We started the game at 9.40pm (40 mins behind schedule)and the final table was finished at 2.30am.All in all I was reasonably happy with the night although I do plan a few tweaks for our next game on Friday 3rd November.We had 61 players starting and the prizefund was 5200 euro,John Donnelly from Maynooth was the winner (2550) and second was Thomas (Brucie) Byrne (1300) third was Johnathan Millichip (750).The remaining 5 final table players received 120 each.The venue received 300 euro for hire and food and considering they had 5 extra staff on that night to cater for the Players requirements,they didnt do that well ! The organisers had 600 euro and from that we paid 240 euro for printing posters and rules sheets so that left 360 euro for 3 of us to fight over ! As I allready had commented this event in my mind was for the players and was never about us making "big money" so I hope all you boardsters that read this can actually see that not all "Tournies" are run as benefits for organisers.I am really interested in bringing the game forward in a well structured and professional manner and hope to learn from this experience.I would welcome any opportunity to visit any upcoming tournaments and help organisers and in return learn from this experience in order to make our own tournaments better.FYI we run a private members club in Maynooth and if ever any of you are in the area drop in and have a game ! We play rebuy events Wed/Thurs/Fri and Double Chance on Saturday night.The club is open from 8.30pm and these games start at 9pm.Cash games start usually from Midnight and we close at 6am.

Finally,thank all you boardsters for your comments !

Ken

mickste

Kendriver, do u run this infamous card club in maynooth?. Could u please explain what type of cash games you have,as i have heard very mixed reports about supposed 'pot limit' game.

LuckyLloyd

If reports on this forum are to be believed the place sounds like a bloody circus.

Kendriver

There are cash games held in the club every Wed/Thurs/Fri and Sat night and these normally start at 12 ish until 5am.The game is Pot Limit and blinds are 1 and 2 euro.To my certain knowledge these are and have always been "Pot Limit" and please do let me know if you have heard otherwise.

Ken

Kendriver

I thought that was funny ok but I,ve never seen any clowns other than the "well pissed players" that try to gain entry around 2 am most saturday nights ! We run a well established club and get a nice bunch of players every open night.The game is strictly "Pot Limit" with 1 and 2 euro blinds and this is and always has been the format in Favourites.Any person making comments that differ from the above are listening to the wrong people and this is exactly how rumours start,check it out if you want accuracy.

Ken

BigDragon

Ken

I know both you and Lloyd so I think I'll clarify this point....

The answer that has been given in the past for Favourites is NOT standard pot limit but the club's own opinion of pot limit (ie the lads at the table self dealing).So........

If the blinds are €1 and €2.... How much can the first player to act make it?

Goodluck2me

is this the place where the story was posted from on the bad beats page? he said he played a tounrey in kilcock and a cash game after.... would like ot hear your opinions if it was...

Kendriver

Favourites Club is in Maynooth not Kilcock so I don,t think the bad beat your referring to happened in our club but of course I,m sure you could get bad beat stories from Favourites too
Our version of Pot Limit (I,m open to improvement suggestions here)The sm is 1 euro and bb is 2 euro so the max the first to act can bet is 5 euro,this is made up of sm + bb + his call = 5 euro ie.the max in the pot as the bet reaches this player.Next to act can make his max bet of 10 for the same reasons.Does this clarify things ? Generally there are average pots of 30/40 euros although once or twice I had seen a couple of hundred euros in the pot.The tables are self deal and hopefully we will change this in the not too distant future.The Club is small and the atmosphere friendly with generally 2 full tables in operation of 10 players at each,we can add a third but this doesn,t happen that often,in my mind small and manageable is better.The average chip purchase is 75 euro and I,ve seldom seen any player losing more than a couple of hundred euro.The great thing about Favourites is that all our players "choose" to play here.

Ken

LuckyLloyd

Kendriver wrote:

Favourites Club is in Maynooth not Kilcock so I don,t think the bad beat your referring to happened in our club but of course I,m sure you could get bad beat stories from Favourites too
Our version of Pot Limit (I,m open to improvement suggestions here)The sm is 1 euro and bb is 2 euro so the max the first to act can bet is 5 euro,this is made up of sm + bb + his call = 5 euro ie.the max in the pot as the bet reaches this player.Next to act can make his max bet of 10 for the same reasons.Does this clarify things ? Generally there are average pots of 30/40 euros although once or twice I had seen a couple of hundred euros in the pot.The tables are self deal and hopefully we will change this in the not too distant future.The Club is small and the atmosphere friendly with generally 2 full tables in operation of 10 players at each,we can add a third but this doesn,t happen that often,in my mind small and manageable is better.The average chip purchase is 75 euro and I,ve seldom seen any player losing more than a couple of hundred euro.The great thing about Favourites is that all our players "choose" to play here.

Ken

Ok Ken, the above betting structure for Pot limit is incorrect. Now that is fine, because I didn't understand Pot Limit the first few times I played it - it takes a while to understand the betting structure properly.

Blinds 1 / 2: 3 in pot. UTG can make it 7 to go because after he calls 2 there is 5 in the pot. So a bet of 7 equals a call of 2 and a raise of the pot which now contains 5.

Therefore, pot is a call of the bet plus a raise of what is the pot after that call.

Postflop, the first pot bet is the actual amount in the pot. Lets say there is 40 in the pot, the first to act post - flop can make it a maximum of 40 to go. However, the next to act can then make it 160. This is becuase they call 40 (making the pot now 80), and then bet the pot amount making it a total of 160 for more cards.

I hope that makes sense. It is the standard betting structure used in all card clubs in town.

Lloyd.

LuckyLloyd

goodluck2me wrote:

is this the place where the story was posted from on the bad beats page? he said he played a tounrey in kilcock and a cash game after.... would like ot hear your opinions if it was...

Again Ken,

The reason I am viewing your club with suspicion is that there have been two posts over the last couple of months severly criticising a card club based in Maynooth / Kilcock. It was alleged that:

1) The Club held tournaments with blind levels of 10 minutes and withheld a percentage of cash game players chips at the end of a night when they were cashing out.

2) It was also alleged that the Pot Limit game was not played using standard rules and that a player was ganged up on when he questioned the incorrect betting structure that was being employed.

If the above stories are true, it would represent very bad value for the playing punter IMHO.

I can easily understand that it may appear as if we are simply making smart - ass comments for the sake of it in this thread but that is not my intention. I started palying the game via pub tourneys but I would never play them now as I realise the bad value and poor standards maintained by many of the companies that run them. This forum has a responsibillity to question anything that could be perceived as bad value or incorrect applications of the rules of the game.

I look forward to your response.

Lloyd.

RasTa

Yeah what are your blinds and time limit? How the hell does a double chance which starts at 9.40 finish at 2.30 with 65 players

ligger

Ken,

What is the Rake at the card club?

Kendriver

Hi Lloyd,

Reading your response I agree with you in relation to "Pot Limit Rules" as you have described them,I will change these in the club to make sure we are in line with the offical rules.I must stress that its only by doing that we learn and we are learning all the time.The club was set up with the best intentions and our aim is to make poker playing enjoyable and a serious alternative to going to the pub.I obviously interperated the rules incorrectly and will correct these although can you imagine trying to explain to our existing players why this change is required I have to say though that not one player has ever commented to me on our structure.In relation to bad posts;the club runs rebuys tournies on Wed/Thurs/Fri,these cost 20 euro and rebuys which are unlimited until the end of level 4 are also 20 euro.The blind levels are 15 mins for the first 4 levels and 20 minutes after the break,the club pays out 85% of all income which usually pays 123 and also 50 for first poker or better,we would have around 20 players and each would rebuy or top up once giving an average income of 800 euros and the payout is generally 700/750 in total.These games start at 9pm and generally finish at 1am so all in all I think good value for money.Players pay 10 euro club entry and for this they receive their food & drink for as long as their in the Club so again I consider this good value for money.In relation to a % being deducted from winnings;we charge 5% for converting cash into chips and 5% for cashing chips into cash,we do not charge a rake at the table and in my experience the 5% for losers and 10% for winners compares very well with any of the casinos I have visited in Dublin prior to opening the Club.Again Lloyd I,m open to suggestions on how to improve things for the betterment of players but remember this Club must be able to pay its bills or face closure.I intend putting a suggestion box in the club and asking the members how we might improve things for the members.The only reason I can put forward for bad press are bad beats and as poker players none of us are immune to these,I would happily discuss any elements of dis satisfaction that anyone has experienced while in the club and don,t understand how/why anyone would "gang" up on a member making a point ? He/She could easily have asked me to intervene but honestly I have never had this happen in relation to the correct pot limit structure.

Thank for your time

Ken

LuckyLloyd

Ok Ken,

I would suggest three things:

1) That you review all club rules for tournaments and cash games and have a documented list of rules clearly posted on a wall in the club. This is particularly important when you have a self deal cash game running where some of the players have a few drinks. When you have prepared the list you can PM me and I would be happy to review and iron out any anomolies or ommisions when compared to the Dublin Clubs. If there is something I'm unsure of I will find out for you.

2) That you slightly increase the blind timeframes for your tournaments. At least 20 mins the whole way, either increasing to 25 mins for the first 3.4 levels or for the final table. I gaurantee your players will appreciate this.

3) Finally, please note that a 10% house rake for a self dealt cash game is not insignificant IMO. I would expect dealers for that price.

Just suggestions. Make of them what you will.

Lloyd.

RasTa

Yeah I might pop down for a tourney but I want to know what way the blinds move up

25/50
50/100
100/200
200/400

and what if i just want water and no food ? Do I still have to pay a tenner to get into the club, and is that tenner have to be paid everytime i vist?

Shortstack

Some comments on structures and reg fees for non casino games:

Most people on this forum are good players who can see the advantage of good structures.

The target audience for most pub tournaments do not give a rats ass about structures, they are out for a good night with a game of cards, a few drinks and a chance to win a prize at the end of the night.

Sure some of them will progress into better players and look for better structures but the majority will not. I can say this with some authority because I have seen our 'well structured' tournaments poorly attended and our 'crapshooty' tournaments getting all the crowds.

From an organisers point of view the lower the buy in the higher % the reg needs to be for people to run tournaments outside of a casino and earn a wage. There is a lot more to oragansing tournaments properly than just turning up on the night and a lot more costs than just buyin a set of chips and some cards etc.

I like to be able to cater for both markets but they are not markets that will easily fit together.

Therefore I would suggest that:

1: People do not knock structures because they dont like them
2: Do not accuse people of ripping people off when all fees etc are not hidden

Fair enough flame away if people are hiding charges or not being up front about things.

Mellor

Shortstack wrote:

Some comments on structures and reg fees for non casino games:
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Therefore I would suggest that:

1: People do not knock structures because they dont like them
2: Do not accuse people of ripping people off when all fees etc are not hidden

Fair enough flame away if people are hiding charges or not being up front about things.

Just thought i'd point out that the topic of the thread is currently not a pub game but the casino/card room in maynooth.
And also just because the fees etc are upfront doesn't mean the customer isnt getting ripped off.
If I run a tourney with a 50% payout. I am ripping off the players, but if I have a sign saying 50% payout its fair??? I wouldn't say so. Its still a rip off, but the players are idiots for playing too.



Some quick questions to Kendriver,
1. Where exactly in maynooth is this club? I am there often enough and I dont know of it. But I haven't been out there in a while.
2. I noticed you charge a fee for cashing out chips. Is it possible to remove chips from the club? Or do you have lockers? Do I have to cash out if I wish to leave.
3. How are disputes dealt with if there are no dealers.

Shortstack

Mellor wrote:

Just thought i'd point out that the topic of the thread is currently not a pub game but the casino/card room in maynooth.
And also just because the fees etc are upfront doesn't mean the customer isnt getting ripped off.
If I run a tourney with a 50% payout. I am ripping off the players, but if I have a sign saying 50% payout its fair??? I wouldn't say so. Its still a rip off, but the players are idiots for playing too.



Some quick questions to Kendriver,
1. Where exactly in maynooth is this club? I am there often enough and I dont know of it. But I haven't been out there in a while.
2. I noticed you charge a fee for cashing out chips. Is it possible to remove chips from the club? Or do you have lockers? Do I have to cash out if I wish to leave.
3. How are disputes dealt with if there are no dealers.

I have just read the thread apologies for not pointing out that I was replying to earlier responses. Nobody mentioned 50% either.

Goodluck2me

Shortstack wrote:

I have just read the thread apologies for not pointing out that I was replying to earlier responses. Nobody mentioned 50% either.

i think 50% is just an exaggerrated example of a point hes tryin to get across.