Roundhouse delivery.

Miles Long

'Lo,

K so I've been thinking a bit about this lately. I've seen many different deliverlies of the roundhouse kick I was just wondering a thing or two. The way I was shown by Mark L Clive Roper etc. Muay Thai was it? I can see it's effectiveness utilising the attack over the area of the instep and the shin, kudos. What I don't get is why it uses the leg like a bat, i.e. not bending the knee. Surely it would make more sense to use the addition of the twist in the hips, the movement of the thigh and the opening of the knee for maximum velocity (i.e. F = mv^2).

You're getting to the same point at the same instant due to the restiction of the knee. So why not get there having developed that bit more velocity?

Also, everybody of every MA backround, has your training anything to lend to this?

Nothingcompares

Hmm, at the risk of embarrasing myself, leaving cert physics tells me Force = Mass times accelleratin or F = m.a not Force = mass times veolcity squared.

acceleation = m/s/s or ms^-2
velocity = m/s or ms^-1

Clive

There are many different formulae for force, most of which are far too simplistic to describe such a complex system as the human leg.

Miles, for an simple quasi - scientific answer (I'm going to bed now, I might do a more detailed answer later) think more in terms of torque ie levers and distances from the fulcrum.

kenpo_dave

In Kyokushin most widely used method for roundhouses are with a straight leg too. The foot and toes curled back. The reason for this is there is a small amount of power that is lost when the foot is extended. This is due to vibration in the foot. Also, the muscles in the shin are at their tensest when the foot and toes are back. At the point of impact the heel of the standing foot is grounded. This is to keep maximum balance when kicking. Roundhouse kicks to any target impact at a 90 degree angle, there is no upward motion at all. In Kyokushin if you kick up you will get an elbow in your leg, almost everytime. The heel of the kicking leg points directly away from the target to ensure that the point of the shin bone is making contact. There are several different roundhouses in Kyokushin, some with 'snaps', but the most devastating is the one I mentioned above.
As for why kick with a straight leg instead of putting a 'snap' into it, I dont know the answer to this.

OSU,

Dave.

Miles Long

Shotokan the recoiling of the kick in this video is interesting cause it's almost like you've defined the point at which the kick stops (past the pad). How would this kick work/ look without the pad?
Muay Thai is this an accurate reflection of MT kick? Here from what I can see, the padman is literally in the way of what would be a kick that continues back around to the fighting stance.
Tae Kwon Do this one isn't the way we are taugh, stopping just after the centre line. (it's only the first section of the video I'm referencing).

In looking for as much info on the kick as I can I should probably give my own assesment. How I (would like to) kick would be best summed up as follows:

• Twist the hips in order to follow through if unhinderd
• Next the knee is lifted/ directed to the arc the kick requires
• The knee is kept closed until it is released the coincide the apex of the kick and the leg open to about 95% (leaving a bend so to speak)
• If I hit something I reatract back to where I was...
• ... if I don't I follow through.
  

That said, I'm not to hot on indefinately practicing what I preach. Any TKD guys care to contribute thier "way of the roundhouse"? Just looking for a more rounded view on things. ... I'm sorry

Note: It seems to me that leaving the knee open makes for a better scope for hitting a moving target but if you are sure of your target the extra snap out would lend itself to enhancing the force of the kick.


Dave just on the foot of the standing leg? Do you rotate on the heel? At what angle to the centre is that foot pointing?

Rory!

kenpo_dave

Rory. For leg and mid spleen/liver kicks the standing foot can be anywhere from 45 deg to almost side on. For head kicks the groin obviously needs to be opened more so the heel of the standing foot is pointed to some degree towasrds the target. I have seen Kyokushin fighters kick more like Muay Thai fighters than what I have described in my previous post. In the following clip Francisco Filho KO's Andy Hug with a roundhouse to the head. They show a slow motion of the kick and the position of the standing foot is clearly seen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M1fvPRubPQ Personally I dont think that any praticular technique for doing a roundhouse is more right than another. I think it all comes down to preference. Obviously some techniques are more powerful than others. This clip also shows some roundhouse techniques - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8456579423163747311&q=kyokushin

OSU,

Dave.

pma-ire

Miles Long wrote:

That said, I'm not to hot on indefinately practicing what I preach. Any TKD guys care to contribute thier "way of the roundhouse"? Just looking for a more rounded view on things. ... I'm sorry

I love Roundhouses or turning kicks as we call them!!

There are loads of ways of throwing the kick!

I prefer the low one to the gut or legs!! Though I still can let out a handy one to head height!!

From training TKD I do use my hips a lot with a bent knee, and feel more comfy with the impact that follows in from a kick like that! I've seen other MA's way of doing this and some tend to extend out the leg too much and loose the force created in the movement. Or others depend on the speed of the swinging leg without any real hip motion??

The best option seems to be a cross between the TKD and Thai roundhouse!!

damo

Its debatable as to which ones look the prettiest, but muay thai kicks are definately the most powerful and practical.

kenpo_dave

damo wrote:

Its debatable as to which ones look the prettiest, but muay thai kicks are definately the most powerful and practical.

Na ah!!! Kyokushin is better

JohnMc1

thanks for the tips.

Black Swan

Miles Long wrote:

Surely it would make more sense to use the addition of the twist in the hips, the movement of the thigh and the opening of the knee for maximum velocity

In TKD we torque the hips, bend the knee and snap it into a kick, often retracting it into a bent knee again. Sometimes this kick is combined with forward or passing movement, or a spin, adding the body's weight and velocity to the snap.

monkey tennis

Miles Long wrote:

words

That TKD video's probably not the best example - your man is throwing sport/competition kicks. They're designed to sneak around the opponent's guard (see the way it's almost like a front kick, but snakes around at the last second?) rather than actually smack them with power.

I'd put more faith in Kyokushin or MT kicks - they're tried and tested daily. The only problem I'd have with that style of round kick is that it might be easier to see coming than a karate-style snap kick, but it's a tradeoff for more impact power.

challengemaster

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

In TKD we torque the hips, bend the knee and snap it into a kick, often retracting it into a bent knee again. Sometimes this kick is combined with forward or passing movement, or a spin, adding the body's weight and velocity to the snap.

quite like this in Wado-Kai too

Black Swan

challengemaster wrote:

quite like this in Wado-Kai too

Hi CM! Maybe we can spar when I get back?

Roper

Hmmm, both an interesting, and at the same time utterly pointless topic.

Basically, just look at what type of kick makes it to the top of the pile. The king of striking competitions in which any kick can be used is K1. In K1, there are no wado fighters, there are no kung fu fighters, there are no tkd fighters. They're Muay Thai, Kyokushin or kickboxing at a push. Not that this should tell you all you need to know about kicking, but it should give you an idea of what works.

From personal experience of getting kicked by all sorts. (given that there are bound to be individual differences etc.) Hardest kick I ever got was a thai boxer, second after that was a kickboxer I used to train with. Third was a Romanian TKD guy I trained with, super kicker. Fourth was a Kykokushin guy who I had a "friendly" spar with one night... I've also trained with wado guys, kung fu, wtf tkd and other sorts, and while some of them kicked hard, they weren't in the same league as the above 4.

Just my opinion, Rory, if you're that interested I'd stay away from the formulae and get into some actual sparring with different lads, feeling is believing...

Miles Long

Feeling is believing. That's true, definately true. I suppose there are times when you wanna knock the guy off his feet and you're gonna use a more MT kind of kick delivery. However if you wanna get inside/ around a guard, the TKD is probably a bit more pin point than most. My Kyokushin training consists of what Dave said above so... ... it's seem pretty bad ass but I can't really comment. Like I said i've been toying with the different ways and it seems that if you could master a few deliveries and apply them when the opportunity arises you're away in a hack. The MT kick is very like the shin kick we practice so it's not to alien to flip between them.

Dave,
I just caught those videos (they weren't there last time??) I see what you mean about the planted foot. It really lend itself to getting back to your fighting stance by only turning enough to make proper contact! Heavy Shots!

pma-ire wrote:

The best option seems to be a cross between the TKD and Thai roundhouse!!

I'm with you on this one man! But I'm open to more techniques and tips!

Roper

Miles Long wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pma-ire
The best option seems to be a cross between the TKD and Thai roundhouse!!


I'm with you on this one man! But I'm open to more techniques and tips!

Well, I've been to a lot of TKD tournaments and rarely seen a high kick knockout, and I've been to and watched a lot of Thai and seen lots of knockouts via kicks.

IMO, Thai and TKD are not remotely compatible. There's not an awful lot of TKD that transfers to a full contact arena, believe me!

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Well, I've been to a lot of TKD tournaments and rarely seen a high kick knockout,

As sport ITF'ish TKD is a semi contact sport that would'int suprise me!

Roper wrote:

and I've been to and watched a lot of Thai and seen lots of knockouts via kicks.

Then I have seen people get KO'd at TKD comps with turning kicks! Just cause you did'int don't mean it don't happen?? If a bear sh!ts in the woods and no one saw him do it. Did it really happen??

Roper wrote:

IMO, Thai and TKD are not remotely compatible. There's not an awful lot of TKD that transfers to a full contact arena, believe me!

Thats just your opinion! There's a guy on the Thai Fights on Eurosport that fought TKD and uses the TKD style kicks well in fights(no sidekicks)!! And does anyone know Mark Weir??

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Hmmm, both an interesting, and at the same time utterly pointless topic.

What a great attitude to have!! :rolleyes:

One of the first times in ages that someone posts something not based on self or style promotion and actually based on the application of a technique and it gets knocked as being a waist of time??

Nothing wrong with the rest of the post though??

Just don't know why it had to start like that??:(

Roper

pma-ire wrote:

There's a guy on the Thai Fights on Eurosport that fought TKD and uses the TKD style kicks well in fights(no sidekicks)!! And does anyone know Mark Weir??

Mark Weir has stated that he doesn't believe TKD to be effective in MMA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roper
Hmmm, both an interesting, and at the same time utterly pointless topic.

What a great attitude to have!!

One of the first times in ages that someone posts something not based on self or style promotion and actually based on the application of a technique and it gets knocked as being a waist of time??

Nothing wrong with the rest of the post though??

Just don't know why it had to start like that??

I'll clarify; Its a good topic because it deals with various applications, but its a waste of time because "the cream floats to the top" as it were, as evidenced by every 'mixed' full contact promotion in the world and the style of kick being used in it. The kick thrown by Filhio in the clip above I would describe as very "thai-like" if it wasn't for the fact that I knew Filhio came from a Kyukoshin background. Those two methods of kicking, in my experience, are very similar and the dominance of thai and kyukoshin in K1 is evidence of their superiority in terms of striking systems.

Get me? I'm not trying to pull the piss out of any style, I'm just stating what I see as the facts!

Best looking roundhouse style kick has to be the one the Caopeira guys do, where they put their hands on the ground... sweet!

Roper

Just thought of something that might interest you in your scientific quest:) .

We're hosting a Muay thai workshop with a top Irish Muay Thai coach next month that might give you an insight into how others do it. Its a fairly limited deal so I'm not doling out the invitations, but since we know you and you've been down and rolled with us a couple of times, you'd be welcome to come along and participate.

The details are here K.O. Forum on MMAIreland. If you're interested, give me a shout.

Miles Long

Roper wrote:

The details are here K.O. Forum on MMAIreland. If you're interested, give me a shout.

PM'd you man, Thanks.

Scientific quest, now there's a turn of phrase I like.

Blue Lagoon wrote:

Sometimes this kick is combined with forward or passing movement, or a spin, adding the body's weight and velocity to the snap.

Sorry forgot to get back to you on this one. Is my memory right in saying you're WTF? Regardless you comment got me thinking so to add a bit more... One of the things I also found was the nature of the fighting stance, and how hard it to return to a certain stance without getting taken down or countered. My feeling being that the TKD "sideways" stance is notorious for giving loads of time for a counter if your guard takes the roundhouse kick, (perfect for side kicks mind you!), correct me if I'm wrong? I faught a Kung Fu guy at an invitational before and thier stance was side on an deep, again I think as above. (Aside: I'm assuming the kick is thrown from the back leg as it obviously generates more power than the front leg.)

The area of your foot on the ground, which differs in MT and KyoKu, the feeling I get is that the larger the area the more power you can input i.e. balance, friction... but it does slow you down? Any thoughts on this?

In the name of Science! *punches the air*

Rory!

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Mark Weir has stated that he doesn't believe TKD to be effective in MMA.

Yet he still looks like a TKD fighter when doing his stand up?? With some additions like the clinch and knee work!! He even does a leg shuffel!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxd-aT3QBo

Semi contact TKD sparring or even WTF full contact sparring would not be effective in MMA!! But that don't mean that the proper kicks would not be effective??

Even looking at Mark in that video you can see his TKD training!!

Roper wrote:

I'll clarify; Its a good topic because it deals with various applications, but its a waste of time because "the cream floats to the top" as it were, as evidenced by every 'mixed' full contact promotion in the world and the style of kick being used in it. The kick thrown by Filhio in the clip above I would describe as very "thai-like" if it wasn't for the fact that I knew Filhio came from a Kyukoshin background. Those two methods of kicking, in my experience, are very similar and the dominance of thai and kyukoshin in K1 is evidence of their superiority in terms of striking systems.

It's back to the aim of the training we do! If your training for semi-contact points then you will adapt your stances and attacks to that format, and the same for full contact!! I would still bet that you look like a TKD fighter when fighting now!! Maybe not as much as when you were in that semi-contact training. But still there non the less!![/QUOTE]

Tim_Murphy

Yet he still looks like a TKD fighter when doing his stand up??

That really depends on how you look at it. You can see the TKD influence when he fights, but he doesn't look like a TKD fighter anymore, and he doesn't claim to be as far as I know.

Semi contact TKD sparring or even WTF full contact sparring would not be effective in MMA!! But that don't mean that the proper kicks would not be effective??

A good kick is a good kick, period. A 'proper' flicky turning kick that is taught in many TKD clubs would not be effective. A hard fast kick that some clubs do would.

monkey tennis

Miles Long wrote:

The area of your foot on the ground, which differs in MT and KyoKu, the feeling I get is that the larger the area the more power you can input i.e. balance, friction... but it does slow you down? Any thoughts on this?

I would be surprised - if you have your heel on the ground, you have a stable base to push off. If you can quickly snap your hip flexors into action (which you would need to be able to do anyway for a MT round kick) after the initial push, I don't see how having your foot flat would make a big difference.

Miles Long wrote:

I see what you mean about the planted foot. It really lend itself to getting back to your fighting stance by only turning enough to make proper contact!

You'd want to be very careful about this one - if you're turning your hip into the kick, but your lower leg and foot aren't turning out enough, you could twist your knee! Even if it doesn't hurt much when you do it, if you keep doing it it won't be good for you long-term.

pma-ire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

That really depends on how you look at it. You can see the TKD influence when he fights, but he doesn't look like a TKD fighter anymore, and he doesn't claim to be as far as I know.

He still has links to his original TKD group and gives sems to them once a year. But I know that he is not training in a TKD club anymore! As most TKD clubs are focused on semi-contact or Olympic sparring which would not be helpful to him and the sport he is involved in now!!

Tim_Murphy wrote:

A good kick is a good kick, period. A 'proper' flicky turning kick that is taught in many TKD clubs would not be effective. A hard fast kick that some clubs do would.

I totally agree Timmy!

Jimkel

pma-ire wrote:

The best option seems to be a cross between the TKD and Thai roundhouse!!

You can find something to that effect in Karate.
Heres a vid of a demo (It's only a demo for spectators but they are real strikes) In the JKA world championships. It's Shotokan, The vid of shotokan kicks posted originally was an example of one way of doing it. This shows a more followed through version but with a snappy start. The kick is in the last seconds of the vid at 2:50 I think.
(The audio's badly out of sink)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Z8Uy5_XwsM

I think a few different types of roundhouse up your sleeve is best.

Having the knee bent at the start is a good way to confuse your opponent. Its hard to for them to tell the height of the kick, if your legs straight it telegraphs the move and the opponent can judge Where it's gonna hit more easily. For instance you can raise the knee high, But kick low when you twist into it thus letting you pick your target even when you've already initiated the attack.

There is also a way to roundhouse an opponent in the head from an extremely short distance, standing chin to chin almost. This is another good one as it's unexpected, it involves bringing the knee up almost at the side of your body and dropping your back away and to the opposite side while twisting in with your leg extending in an arc, good strike against the ear.

Roper

pma-ire wrote:

It's back to the aim of the training we do! If your training for semi-contact points then you will adapt your stances and attacks to that format, and the same for full contact!! I would still bet that you look like a TKD fighter when fighting now!! Maybe not as much as when you were in that semi-contact training. But still there non the less!!

[/QUOTE]
No, if I want to break a block I won't use a pin hammer. No amount of training of how I swing it is going to turn that into a lump hammer. The mechanics of the kicks are extremely different.

In my opinion, the Thai kick cannot be improved upon. It is a physically perfect strike from start to finish.

Some say I didn't look much like a TKD fighter when I was in TKD!:rolleyes: I'm sure if you looked for it, you could find it but I don't go around looking at how I fight, I'm more concerned as to whether its effective or not. What I can tell you is that I had to change a lot at the fundamental level to make my striking work in MMA training.

Miles Long

monkey tennis wrote:

I would be surprised - if you have your heel on the ground, you have a stable base to push off. If you can quickly snap your hip flexors into action (which you would need to be able to do anyway for a MT round kick) after the initial push, I don't see how having your foot flat would make a big difference.

You'd want to be very careful about this one - if you're turning your hip into the kick, but your lower leg and foot aren't turning out enough, you could twist your knee! Even if it doesn't hurt much when you do it, if you keep doing it it won't be good for you long-term.

Hey,
The heel on the ground thing doesn't really work for me tbh. Mainly cause I'm not used to it but what I was on about was the fact that if you keep your heel on the ground, I figure that it'd be quicker to return to your stance, making it easier to defend a counter shot. I think it was one of the Kyokushin kicks that planted the foot at 45 degrees or so, allowing for that twist in the knee.

Tim wrote:

A good kick is a good kick, period. A 'proper' flicky turning kick that is taught in many TKD clubs would not be effective. A hard fast kick that some clubs do would.

I'm with you on this one. The majority of TKD clubs are semi contact so naturally to an outside eye all TKD clubs are semi contact. The downward spiral is that in TKD, semi contact clubs beget semi contact clubs.

Jimkel wrote:

I think a few different types of roundhouse up your sleeve is best.

Exactly, now one has to go about picking them. I remember one of the judo lads on here saying that in years of practice you only really comfortably master 7 or so throws that you can use in a pressure situation, wise words, you'd wanna be damn sure when choosing your arsenal!

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

What I can tell you is that I had to change a lot at the fundamental level to make my striking work in MMA training.

Maybe that was because...

Roper wrote:

Some say I didn't look much like a TKD fighter when I was in TKD!:rolleyes:

scuttery1

A kick I've always held in high esteem is the Savate "fouetté". It took me ages to get the mechanics of this down but having been hit with one in a TKD comp in the early 80' I decided it was one to have. It uses the toe of the foot / shoe and if delivered properly is absolutely sickening! If memory serves Matt Thornton demos it on one of his early tapes. Always thought that Savate was overlooked but then again them leotards do it no favours.:D

Miles Long

1
2 - 1:44?

Scuttery1,

Are either of the above good examples? Could you give a run down on the machanics of this kick please? Lots of leg kicks and toes in the head, what's with the shoes? Just protection or what?

thanks,

Rory.

scuttery1

Miles Long wrote:

Scuttery1,

Are either of the above good examples? Could you give a run down on the machanics of this kick please? Lots of leg kicks and toes in the head, what's with the shoes? Just protection or what?

thanks,

Rory.

The mechanics are harder to describe than they are to learn:D Basically, as it was shown to me, was a lot like a standard karate roundhouse with little hip commitment. You hit with the toe points, hence the shoes, and the retraction of the kick is whip like. It’s a sneaky kick as it can be fired in between a persons guard. As I said check out Matt Thornton’s first stand up tape for a good description and demo of the fouette.
Hope that helps.

Miles Long

scuttery1 wrote:

The mechanics are harder to describe than they are to learn:D Basically, as it was shown to me, was a lot like a standard karate roundhouse with little hip commitment. You hit with the toe points, hence the shoes, and the retraction of the kick is whip like. It’s a sneaky kick as it can be fired in between a persons guard. As I said check out Matt Thornton’s first stand up tape for a good description and demo of the fouette.
Hope that helps.

Yeah writing down any set of body movements can get really confusing! Sneaky is a good term for what I take from that kick. It has a very small area of impact (in all dimensions) so I can see how it would be useful in and around a guard. Alas, one can't say "hold on a sec, just wanna put on my savate shoes and leotard" so it's not really a goer for the no shoes guys!

Pro. F

Just a few points that might interest some heads here.

I think that there might be some MT techs for increasing the power of round kicks by chambering the kick (by this I mean bending the knee) slightly before the apex and extending at the apex. I'm not sure on this.. I saw a bit of a class - that I wasn't in - given by a well respected MT coach and he seemed to be talking about this but I didn't catch that much of it.

Another thing is that MT kicks aren't delivered with a completely straight leg. The knee just isn't as bent as in some other MAs.

Some people have mentioned changing the height of kicks. In Muay Thai the guard against middle kicks defends the leg and head as well so it doesn't matter much if your opponent changes height after shaping to deliver a middle kick or head kick. If you could make a middle kick or head kick look like a leg kick then that would be useful though. There are techniques for doing this in MT eg throwing a few leg kicks while looking at the opponents leg then throwing a head kick while again looking at their leg.

Last thing - striking with the toes. There's a MT strike called Neb(sp?) it means pecking or spear, I think. It involves kicking with the ball of the foot, under the big toe, at vital (or pressure) points. Kicking with Neb to the neck being the one that I heard of - there may be other targets - for the instant mysterious knock out.. cool!

IMO MT mixed with TKD wouldn't make a more effective kicking technique. MT kicks are more powerful, faster and more useful than TKD. There are plenty of MTvTKD fights showing this.
Kyokushin and Savate maybe could add to MT.

PS does my MT love show