Immigration policy for Romania and Bulgaria

democrates

There's a lot of debate in the UK on this and a little here.

We've kept the doors open for low-paid labour up to now but I'd lay money there will be a change in policy for Romania and Bulgaria.

The UK produced an estimate of immigrants from these countries in the event of accession and an open door policy, and they assert it might include around 45,000 "un-desireables". I assume this means people who would come to beg on the street and live off the state.

So now they are talking about changing their immigration policy, and so are we, a work permit system is being mooted to filter those we desire from those we do not.

While we can easily justify avoiding an excessive influx of dependants on one extreme, would it be fair of us to be hardline and cherry-pick from these countries?

landser

democrates wrote:

While we can easily justify avoiding an excessive influx of dependants on one extreme, would it be fair of us to be hardline and cherry-pick from these countries?

No problem with using skills needs to determine who gets in. It's an acceptable practice in most countries.

Tricity Bendix

To be frank, yes it would be fair. The Irish government must always act solely in the interests of the Irish people. I'm not afraid to stand up and say that the immigrants from the new EU countries have benefited Ireland. However, I'm unsure if immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania would do the same. It may be that I am unduly wary of these two countries, but I doubt that either of them have much to offer in the way of skilled immigrants.

neolxs

imigrants from EU countries have done nothing to help the ROI. If Anything they have added to our benefits system, Taken Jobs away from Students, reduced the rates of pay for Irish Low skilled workers, and have no regard to Irish Law, (note all the foreign cars not paying VRT, Road Tax Irish Insurance)

If The Irish state Ban Romania and the new states joining, Thank God is the only words i can find to show my happiness!

Tricity Bendix

And that is why we are unable to have a decent public debate on the matter.

neolxs

b.ie curious wrote:

And that is why we are unable to have a decent public debate on the matter.

I fail to ~Understand your point?

oscarBravo

b.ie curious wrote:

The Irish government must always act solely in the interests of the Irish people.

So why do they keep sending my hard-earned tax euros to those bloody spongers in Darfur and all those other foreign places?

rlogue

Spongers in Darfur? Are you being amusing?

oscarBravo

I prefer the term "ironic".

democrates

neolxs wrote:

imigrants from EU countries have done nothing to help the ROI. If Anything they have added to our benefits system, Taken Jobs away from Students, reduced the rates of pay for Irish Low skilled workers, and have no regard to Irish Law, (note all the foreign cars not paying VRT, Road Tax Irish Insurance)

If The Irish state Ban Romania and the new states joining, Thank God is the only words i can find to show my happiness!

I'd be interested if anyone can post stats, but I have the impression that most are working here, paying income tax, renting accommodation, shopping etc, and overall are a net benefit.

As for taking jobs from students I find it hard to believe that is a significant problem, but in fairness the only anecdotes I hear are from employers in dire need of staff.

As for reducing pay, if it's the illegal practices of employers you can't really blame their victims who I'm sure would be a lot happier with legal pay and conditions. Our unions are trying to keep a sharp eye out for sharp practice. It's a pity our government doesn't resource adequate detection and enforcement, and the same goes for your point on immigrant road users.

Consider how many Irish have gone abroad for a better life, and students for summer work. Are you proposing double-standards?

neolxs

democrates wrote:

I'd be interested if anyone can post stats, but I have the impression that most are working here, paying income tax, renting accommodation, shopping etc, and overall are a net benefit.

In Ireland a married couple can earn around €600.00 per week and pay no Tax. If They Have kids 2 kids they can earn around €300 per month in child benefit, €2000.00 per year in the new child income supplement. Now tell me what low paid unskilled worker is contributing towards the economy? Renting? Yes they all rent, hundreds are on the Housing lists taking away housing from Irish people who have been on the lists for years. Those who private rent are surging the Buy to rent mortgage system. Forcing Houseprices to become inflated which stops first time buyers getting on the housing ladder. Leaving there only choice Council or social housing! But as mentioned they cant do this as these lists are filled with imigrants. Most imigrants live 5-6 to s house, meaning there outgoings are a lot lower than others. As to shopping, we have all read the stories of Fish dissaperaing from Rivers, Ducks from ponds etc.

Finally how many cant even be bothered to change there car registrations over? This again means No VRT, No Road Tax and no Car Insurance. So next time you are hot by a EU imigrant who cant even receive penalty points ask yourself who is going to pay your costs for damages?


As for taking jobs from students I find it hard to believe that is a significant problem, but in fairness the only anecdotes I hear are from employers in dire need of staff.

But where did the money go that students earnt? Back into the Irish Economy or to subsidise there College courses or rent. There has never been or likely to be 1 irish company about to go bust due to lack of employees. The simple truth is the irish ferries Scandal where hard working Irish people loose there jobs to imigrants due to lower paid work.

As for reducing pay, if it's the illegal practices of employers you can't really blame their victims who I'm sure would be a lot happier with legal pay and conditions. Our unions are trying to keep a sharp eye out for sharp practice. It's a pity our government doesn't resource adequate detection and enforcement, and the same goes for your point on immigrant road users.

Any Imigrant that earns peanuts are not about to start complaining to there employer about wages. THey are just happy to receive it! And its simply not just about money, its also about working practices and what employers can get away with. In the real world do you really think MCDonalds would choose a Poor Speaking Eu Imigrant over a Irish person if the only difference was country of origin? They choose the EU Worker because they know what they can get away with bad work practices as well as lower paid wages. If everyone was paid the same wages and had the same worl practices the unemployment in Ireland would not be rising and most of the imigrants would have gone back home.

Consider how many Irish have gone abroad for a better life, and students for summer work. Are you proposing double-standards?

Most Irish went to America or the UK, What Irish person dosent have family in one of the two countries mentioned? Especially the Uk, Ireland has so much social history linked to the country. Now ask yourself the same question about how many Irish have gone to work in Poland?

Strokesfan

I agree with Neolxs - there was an article in the sunday times last week or so I think about McD's trying to introduce a special "Passport" for their workers to make transferring from country easier" - it was rejected because the powers that be saw that McDonalds just want to exploit low wage workers...

I do think that the influx of immigrants has put strain on infrastructure like health services and such. I think work permits is perfectly acceptable and desirable in regard to late accession states such as Romania and Bulgaria.

I'm recently finished college and while looking for a "proper" job - I noticed there was a distinct lack of casual jobs like waitressing etc in my area - I know of a lot of students that found it difficult to get summer jobs due to them already being filled by Eastern Europeans.

democrates

Very few went to Poland when it was part of the CCCP I'll grant you, the direction of economic migrants tends to be toward better opportunities.

My point about immigrants being a net benefit was purely at the aggregate economic level. I actually have a general resistance to accelerating our population growth purely to boost our national economy at the expense of others, which is one deliverable of international competition in order to keep us fighting for fdi.

I understand your ire(?) at the policy of avoiding full employment in order to suppress wages. On the other hand people have to live and work somewhere and global population growth is a real problem there. Some immigration is one way of sharing the benefit of our economic growth, another would be to compete less desperately and let others get more of the global fdi pie. But that option is becoming ever more difficult:

The prime beneficiaries of the property boom are few, while the many footing the bill are either first time buyers or growing families who trade up, both faced with colossal mortgages. The insidious underbelly to this is the scattering of a generation far and wide because they cannot afford to live in the community they were raised in, and also a substantially increased dependance on well paid employment, which drives property prices, which compels us to compete harder, a vicious circle.

All that aside, there is the issue of whether Bulgaria and Romania are effectively being discriminated against. While the new policy cannot officially be crafted to discriminate against any EU nation(s), introducing new restrictions just when they join would blatently be aimed at them, as one of them said when interviewed about the UK moves, "why us? why now?".

Another question is that while you can't discriminate in imimigration or employment on grounds of race or creed, is a work permit system requiring any entrants to meet employers requirements not effectively an excuse to introduce a national immigration policy based on class discrimination?

Whatever about the total number of immigrants, is it fair to cherry-pick only those we want from these countries and bar the rest? Should we not allow a small percentage of immigrants from each nation to be poor?

Tricity Bendix

oscarBravo wrote:

So why do they keep sending my hard-earned tax euros to those bloody spongers in Darfur and all those other foreign places?

Off Topic/ Because its what the people want. It stops us feeling guilty and inflates our collective ego.

oscarBravo

b.ie curious wrote:

It ... inflates our collective ego.

And that's in our best interest, it is?

Raekwon

democrates wrote:

While we can easily justify avoiding an excessive influx of dependants on one extreme, would it be fair of us to be hardline and cherry-pick from these countries?

I think we have no other option then to cherry-pick from the two forthcoming EU member states, especially considering that they have a combined population of nearly 30 million. If we do what we did with the last EU expansion and allow unrestrictive access then the inevitable excessive influx could be catastrophic for this country in every regard.

oscarBravo

Raekwon wrote:

If we do what we did with the last EU expansion and allow unrestrictive access then the inevitable excessive influx could be catastrophic for this country in every regard.

...like it was with the last EU expansion?

LostinBlanch

Well you can't stop them coming. As full EU citizens they@ll have the right to free movement, which means they can come here for 3 months. The only thing you can stop them doing is work legally. Of course they could all be doing nixers, like the Poles etc do in France apparently.

Raekwon

oscarBravo wrote:

...like it was with the last EU expansion?

No obviously not last time, but this time it could be too much for us to handle if it is not restricted to some extent. I think some cherry-picking wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, we could benefit our economy and provide skilled workers with well paid jobs. *Everyone’s happy


*Hypothetically speaking of course

democrates

Romania and Bulgaria would enlarge the eu population by 23.4m and 8.3m respectively.
The 2004 enlargement was about 75m - more than double.

So why a restriction for 2007?

oscarBravo

Raekwon wrote:

No obviously not last time, but this time it could be too much for us to handle if it is not restricted to some extent.

democrates wrote:

Romania and Bulgaria would enlarge the eu population by 23.4m and 8.3m respectively.
The 2004 enlargement was about 75m - more than double.

Tada. Remind me, why are we panicking, again?

Raekwon

No panic, just want you pc boys to open your eyes a little wider and look at the bigger picture here.

I am not anti-immigration at all, infact I think that the last EU expansion has had a very positive effect on our economy. All I am saying is that now is the time to slow down the process alittle and cherry-picking potential workers in the areas they are needed in, it would not be the worst idea in the world IMO.

Are you guys saying that giving the two new EU states unrestricted access to Ireland would be a good thing? I think you have to bear in mind that they are probably the poorest of the former Soviet satellite states of Central and Eastern Europe and have a serious problem with organised crime and high-level corruption. All I am saying that we should consider adopting a policy like the one that the UK is try to put in place.

You raise the point that the last EU expansion was 70 million and this one will be only 30 million people. What about the next group of states to attain full EU membership; Croatia, Macedonia and Montenegro (and perhaps Serbia) in 2010. Then the remaining East European states such as Albania, Moldova, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia and Turkey in possibly 2015? That’s a combined population of around 170 million. Do you seriously think that Ireland can accommodate numbers like that?

I think Ireland has done everything in its power to accommodate the new EU member states, and rightly so. But why should we be the guinea pigs for the founding members of the EU, who have stuck with their *closed door policy towards the new EU immigrants?



*for now anyway.

Raekwon

Tada. No counter argument. :rolleyes: