Lack of Faith Does Not Bring Societal Ruin - Article

Zillah

Very interesting article here:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

The author correlates degrees of voluntary atheism with various other factors such as literacy, infant mortality, income per capita, homicide rates etc.

Frankly I'm not suprised by the results. One thing I found very interesting is that he had to constantly note something akin to "but not Ireland", as although we rank very poorly for atheism, we actually score extremely well in most other regards.

Dades

Good article Zillah.
(Some good ammo there for discussions in another forum...)

Re the Ireland thing - I wonder if our non-secularism will hold following this year's census. Are we in reality a secular society too apathetic to shake off our non-secular branding?

I also wonder if the corrolation between theism and a lack of societal health is something of a vicious circle. If I live on the poverty line, or am oppressed by my government am I not more inclined to "believe" that something bigger and greater awaits me and my loved ones? That a god will watch out for me, if not in this life than the next. I can see atheism as being a luxury for those who have no experienced such hardship.

A pertinent question might be which came first in the irreligious countries - the prosperity or the atheism?

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

Good article Zillah.
(Some good ammo there for discussions in another forum...)

Re the Ireland thing - I wonder if our non-secularism will hold following this year's census. Are we in reality a secular society too apathetic to shake off our non-secular branding?

I hope so. It does get annoying to have Ireland referred to constantly as a non-secular nation. That is certainly not how I view it.

I blame the irish mammys who fill out everyones Census forms and put "Catholic" in every box

Funsterdelux

Yep, blame the parents

Good article, alright.

Hopefully soon, we will shake off this badge, which we have.

5uspect

The Atheist wrote:

I also wonder if the corrolation between theism and a lack of societal health is something of a vicious circle. If I live on the poverty line, or am oppressed by my government am I not more inclined to "believe" that something bigger and greater awaits me and my loved ones? That a god will watch out for me, if not in this life than the next. I can see atheism as being a luxury for those who have no experienced such hardship.

Isn't the saying something like: "Religion is the opium of the poor"?
Its long been known that as a society develops it becomes more and more secular. Its finally starting to happen here, America has always been the exception tho. I'd imagine it would be better to look at groups within a country to draw better correlations about the effects of belief. Say compare the happiness/prosperity etc of the various religious and non religious communities in a country where the groups are exposed to the same oppertunities. I'd imagine any european country with good ethnic integation would be a good option.

Zillah

Wicknight wrote:

I blame the irish mammys who fill out everyones Census forms and put "Catholic" in every box

That is so very true. Although I have hopes for Jedi becoming a significant slice of the pie chart

The Atheist wrote:

Good article Zillah.
A pertinent question might be which came first in the irreligious countries - the prosperity or the atheism?

A very pertinent question indeed. I'd suggest that the answer is not very simple, that it is in fact a horrendously complex semi-circular system with influences bending back and influencing each other.

I think an overall simplifcation of that though would be to say that Atheism is a result of the prosperity, while belief is both a cause and consequence of lack of development.

5uspect wrote:

Isn't the saying something like: "Religion is the opium of the poor"?

"Religion is the opiate of the masses." Karl Marx. I thought it was Nietsche but apparently not...

pH

Zillah wrote:

"Religion is the opiate of the masses." Karl Marx. I thought it was Nietsche but apparently not...

Yes that was Marx, but Nietzsche did say:

In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.

and

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

and this is the one that might have given you that thought ...

Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity.

UU

Or as Steven Weinberg stated:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."

Calibos

Wicknight wrote:

I blame the irish mammys who fill out everyones Census forms and put "Catholic" in every box

I warned my mother to put down atheist which she did. My 3 brothers are also atheists although perhaps apathetic and they did not give her explicit instructions to put atheist on the census form like I did. As far as the census is concerned they are Practising Catholics.

Whats so strange about it is that neither she nor my father are practicing catholics. I think my dad is an atheist and after religious discussions with my mother, I would put her down as a deist. Yet she insisted that unless instructed otherwise, she was putting Catholic down on the form as we were all baptised as such. She is an intelligent woman but I just couldn't get it into her head that the government does not care what people where baptised as. In the census they want to know how many believe what.

5uspect

Maybe it something similar to someone who still identifies themselves as Jewish even though thay are also atheist. I suppose it can be seen as a very Irish thing to be catholic, it shows you are a true Irish person and not some some sort of blow in.

Zillah

I thought this deserved a bump, very good article

lookinforpicnic

Zillah wrote:

I thought this deserved a bump, very good article

Cheers Zillah, Its a nice article alright. Hopefully when the census results come out next year we will see some changes.

Scofflaw

5uspect wrote:

Maybe it something similar to someone who still identifies themselves as Jewish even though thay are also atheist. I suppose it can be seen as a very Irish thing to be catholic, it shows you are a true Irish person and not some some sort of blow in.

I think that's pretty much right (well, and the mammies). You may be an atheist, but you're an Irish Catholic atheist, not some kind of furriner...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zillah

Bumped for this thread.

I also think it's an awesome article that everyone should read :pac:

Húrin

What is societal ruin anyway? What would it consist of?

I agree that lack of religion does not seem to cause total social breakdown. In some areas of life, such as families staying together, it does, but society keeps functioning anyway. However, people always keep faith in something. Mostly people have faith in materialist hopes or in post-Christian ideologies such as humanism. It is unknown to us what society would be like if most people had a naturalistic worldview and behaved accordingly.

The information presented in this discussion in no way proves that high levels of organic atheism cause societal health or that low levels of organic atheism cause societal ills such as poverty or illiteracy. The wealth, poverty, well-being, and suffering in various nations are caused by numerous political, historical, economic, and sociological factors that are far more determinant than people's personal belief systems.

stevejazzx

Zillah wrote: »

"Religion is the opiate of the masses." Karl Marx. I thought it was Nietsche but apparently not...

I like Hitchens little twist on that saying

"Religion is the placebo of the masses"

Actually the original quote in entirety is much more interesting

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo"