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Lack of Faith Does Not Bring Societal Ruin - Article

  • 19-09-2006 10:28pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭


    Very interesting article here:

    http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

    The author correlates degrees of voluntary atheism with various other factors such as literacy, infant mortality, income per capita, homicide rates etc.

    Frankly I'm not suprised by the results. One thing I found very interesting is that he had to constantly note something akin to "but not Ireland", as although we rank very poorly for atheism, we actually score extremely well in most other regards.


Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Good article Zillah.
    (Some good ammo there for discussions in another forum...)

    Re the Ireland thing - I wonder if our non-secularism will hold following this year's census. Are we in reality a secular society too apathetic to shake off our non-secular branding?

    I also wonder if the corrolation between theism and a lack of societal health is something of a vicious circle. If I live on the poverty line, or am oppressed by my government am I not more inclined to "believe" that something bigger and greater awaits me and my loved ones? That a god will watch out for me, if not in this life than the next. I can see atheism as being a luxury for those who have no experienced such hardship.

    A pertinent question might be which came first in the irreligious countries - the prosperity or the atheism?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Good article Zillah.
    (Some good ammo there for discussions in another forum...)

    Re the Ireland thing - I wonder if our non-secularism will hold following this year's census. Are we in reality a secular society too apathetic to shake off our non-secular branding?

    I hope so. It does get annoying to have Ireland referred to constantly as a non-secular nation. That is certainly not how I view it.

    I blame the irish mammys who fill out everyones Census forms and put "Catholic" in every box :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Funsterdelux


    Yep, blame the parents

    Good article, alright.

    Hopefully soon, we will shake off this badge, which we have.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    I also wonder if the corrolation between theism and a lack of societal health is something of a vicious circle. If I live on the poverty line, or am oppressed by my government am I not more inclined to "believe" that something bigger and greater awaits me and my loved ones? That a god will watch out for me, if not in this life than the next. I can see atheism as being a luxury for those who have no experienced such hardship.

    Isn't the saying something like: "Religion is the opium of the poor"?
    Its long been known that as a society develops it becomes more and more secular. Its finally starting to happen here, America has always been the exception tho. I'd imagine it would be better to look at groups within a country to draw better correlations about the effects of belief. Say compare the happiness/prosperity etc of the various religious and non religious communities in a country where the groups are exposed to the same oppertunities. I'd imagine any european country with good ethnic integation would be a good option.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Wicknight wrote:
    I blame the irish mammys who fill out everyones Census forms and put "Catholic" in every box :D

    That is so very true. Although I have hopes for Jedi becoming a significant slice of the pie chart :)

    Good article Zillah.
    A pertinent question might be which came first in the irreligious countries - the prosperity or the atheism?

    A very pertinent question indeed. I'd suggest that the answer is not very simple, that it is in fact a horrendously complex semi-circular system with influences bending back and influencing each other.

    I think an overall simplifcation of that though would be to say that Atheism is a result of the prosperity, while belief is both a cause and consequence of lack of development.
    5uspect wrote:
    Isn't the saying something like: "Religion is the opium of the poor"?

    "Religion is the opiate of the masses." Karl Marx. I thought it was Nietsche but apparently not...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Zillah wrote:
    "Religion is the opiate of the masses." Karl Marx. I thought it was Nietsche but apparently not...
    Yes that was Marx, but Nietzsche did say:

    In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.

    and

    A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

    and this is the one that might have given you that thought ...

    Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭UU


    Or as Steven Weinberg stated:

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."

    ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,816 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Wicknight wrote:

    I blame the irish mammys who fill out everyones Census forms and put "Catholic" in every box :D

    I warned my mother to put down atheist which she did. My 3 brothers are also atheists although perhaps apathetic and they did not give her explicit instructions to put atheist on the census form like I did. As far as the census is concerned they are Practising Catholics.

    Whats so strange about it is that neither she nor my father are practicing catholics. I think my dad is an atheist and after religious discussions with my mother, I would put her down as a deist. Yet she insisted that unless instructed otherwise, she was putting Catholic down on the form as we were all baptised as such. She is an intelligent woman but I just couldn't get it into her head that the government does not care what people where baptised as. In the census they want to know how many believe what.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Maybe it something similar to someone who still identifies themselves as Jewish even though thay are also atheist. I suppose it can be seen as a very Irish thing to be catholic, it shows you are a true Irish person and not some some sort of blow in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    I thought this deserved a bump, very good article :)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭lookinforpicnic


    Zillah wrote:
    I thought this deserved a bump, very good article :)

    Cheers Zillah, Its a nice article alright. Hopefully when the census results come out next year we will see some changes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    5uspect wrote:
    Maybe it something similar to someone who still identifies themselves as Jewish even though thay are also atheist. I suppose it can be seen as a very Irish thing to be catholic, it shows you are a true Irish person and not some some sort of blow in.

    I think that's pretty much right (well, and the mammies). You may be an atheist, but you're an Irish Catholic atheist, not some kind of furriner...

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Bumped for this thread.

    I also think it's an awesome article that everyone should read :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    What is societal ruin anyway? What would it consist of?

    I agree that lack of religion does not seem to cause total social breakdown. In some areas of life, such as families staying together, it does, but society keeps functioning anyway. However, people always keep faith in something. Mostly people have faith in materialist hopes or in post-Christian ideologies such as humanism. It is unknown to us what society would be like if most people had a naturalistic worldview and behaved accordingly.
    The information presented in this discussion in no way proves that high levels of organic atheism cause societal health or that low levels of organic atheism cause societal ills such as poverty or illiteracy. The wealth, poverty, well-being, and suffering in various nations are caused by numerous political, historical, economic, and sociological factors that are far more determinant than people's personal belief systems.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    Zillah wrote: »


    "Religion is the opiate of the masses." Karl Marx. I thought it was Nietsche but apparently not...


    I like Hitchens little twist on that saying

    "Religion is the placebo of the masses"

    Actually the original quote in entirety is much more interesting

    "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo"


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