A silly gamble or pot odds?

jacQues

Texas hold'em no-limit freeze-out STT.

Starting stack: 250
Blind level 4: 6/12

UTG has 102 chips and limps
UTG+1 has 21 chips and goes all-in
UTG+2 folds
hero (UTG+3) has 277 chips and decides that both UTG and UTG+1 don't have all too much, thinks about raising to 102 but eventually calls.....with Q6 suited (I know - a real bad hand but convinced to have 2 live cards)
MPs all fold, so does SB
BB has about 300 in chips and raises 50 to 71
UTG+1 goes all-in for 102
Back to hero.

BB background info: complete and utter donkey and luckbox. However, he's extremely experienced, aggressive and can correctly "feel weakness" etc. He actually is up money-wise but more because of life-long good variance than skills. Donkey example: he called half his stack as the chip leader with K8 off-suit while on the bubble to my all-in after I show an ace because he took so long thinking...(my other card was a Q and he hit a K *&^%$£"!)...then saying "When I saw your ace I knew I had two live cards so off-course I called". I gave him absolutely no pot-odds there either. In these situations its hard to read him since he could raise with A 5 off-suit (and has done so many of times with other people going all-in).

UTG+1 background info: okish player that is push-happy. No read this hand.

UTG+2 background info: okish player but severely shortstacked, good read on him telling me A X (but X lower than Q).

Since UTG+1's raise is an underraise, me calling would mean the BB cannot raise any more. Thereby I _think_ that I have pot odds to call here (not sure though) and I'll have 175 chips left which is good enough to play on IMO. Also, I know that although BB may be a donkey sometimes he would not bet into a dry sidepot with a bluff or high card. So I feel 'safe' both pot-odds wise and post-flop play-wise.

Correct play or gamble?

jacQues

I called and obviously so did the BB who was notably unhappy about not being able to go all-in at this point. Flop comes 6 9 5, BB checks and I feel I've just won but his pre-flop frustration tells me A K or A Q so I check too since he'd call anyway here. Yes, he'd call my all-in here, I'm pretty sure about that. The turn was an A. He bets, I fold knowing I'm beat. BB has AK off-suit and takes out the other two players. UTG+1 had 88 and UTG+2 had AJ off-suit. River didn't help anyone.

StraddleFor6

Fold pre flop, especially to a raise. You won't find yourself in this mess then.

Hitman Actual

I doubt you're getting correct odds to call here. It's ~100 back to you, and you can be sure the BB will call, so you're getting around 2/1 on your money (I think). Actually, it's hard to even analyse the hand, it's such a mess.

And your justification for calling pre-flop is flawed. Your Q6 is more likely to be dominated than live. And you're in EP with probably more action to come.The pre-flop call is horrible.

RoundTower

this is pretty horrible.

jacQues

lenny_leonard wrote:

I doubt you're getting correct odds to call here. It's ~100 back to you, and you can be sure the BB will call, so you're getting around 2/1 on your money (I think). Actually, it's hard to even analyse the hand, it's such a mess.

And your justification for calling pre-flop is flawed. Your Q6 is more likely to be dominated than live. And you're in EP with probably more action to come.The pre-flop call is horrible.

Uhm not quite. 21 in, 81 more to call.

And as UTG+3 I actually had position on all other players there. BB is first to act post-flop, UTG and UTG+1 are both all-in, then me.

I agree that my first call (the 21) was very loose indeed. I thought I'd get to see a flop for that amount.

jacQues

5starpool

I can't see any justification for playing the hand that way. 86 suited would be much better than Q6 suited for this hand (I haven't read spoiler - and hope you didnt suck out.

jacQues

5starpool wrote:

I can't see any justification for playing the hand that way. 86 suited would be much better than Q6 suited for this hand (I haven't read spoiler - and hope you didnt suck out.

Sucking out is not my playstyle.

I do not know how to exactly calculate pot odds, but I _think_ its 81 to win 90 4-way and win 243 3-way. Sidepots always throw me off for these kind of calculations. I probably did calculate it wrong. Hence me asking, if I knew for sure I wouldn't ask. Noone threw numbers at me, so the odds must be bad instead of marginal meaning I was wrong.

jacQues

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

5starpool

In this case unless it is a very small amount to call then pot odds aren't really relevant as you are likely to be up against a bigger queen and an overpair to your 6 (77+). This being the case then you either need a flush to win, or a very unlikely combination on board of 2 pair or better. You are only getting a little under 3.5/1 on the pot, while committing over 1/3rd of your stack with a bad hand.

Edit: Having read the spoiler, if you are sure you are ahead postflop but would get called anyhow why did you not go all in? You want him to call if he has only 2 overcards here, or only 1 if he has a Q as a possible holding. He is at best a 3/1 dog to win at that point against you in the sidepot at least if he has only overcards and you want the money in then.

jacQues

5starpool wrote:

You are only getting a little under 3.5/1 on the pot, while committing over 1/3rd of your stack with a bad hand.

This is most usefull to me. My clouded mind couldn't see it that clear. That one line makes it seem so simple in highsight.....didn't get a cheap flop so fold!

5starpool wrote:

Edit: Having read the spoiler, if you are sure you are ahead postflop but would get called anyhow why did you not go all in? You want him to call if he has only 2 overcards here, or only 1 if he has a Q as a possible holding. He is at best a 3/1 dog to win at that point against you in the sidepot at least if he has only overcards and you want the money in then.

You are probably correct again. But you have no idea how I fear him. Not his skills, but his unstoppable luck. Even much later when he called my all-in with AA I wasn't relieved until after the river. He called, again with no pot odds, with A 5 offsuit. I keep track of winnings, just for fun. He's up because of lucking out, its sickening!

jacQues

Wombatman

Can we start a poll titled "Do you think jacQues is an uber donkey?"?

jacQues

Wombatman wrote:

Can we start a poll titled "Do you think jacQues is an uber donkey?"?

ROFL

hotspur

This man was at the WSOP this year!

Hitman Actual

jacQues wrote:

Uhm not quite. 21 in, 81 more to call.

And as UTG+3 I actually had position on all other players there. BB is first to act post-flop, UTG and UTG+1 are both all-in, then me.

I agree that my first call (the 21) was very loose indeed. I thought I'd get to see a flop for that amount.

jacQues

Fair enough, I just did a quick scan of the maths, but I still don't like anything about this hand.

fuzzbox

Every part of this hand stinks.

And every part of your justification stinks.

And finally - you say something like :
BB background info: complete and utter donkey and luckbox. However, he's extremely experienced, aggressive and can correctly "feel weakness" etc. He actually is up money-wise but more because of life-long good variance than skills. Donkey example: he called half his stack as the chip leader with K8 off-suit while on the bubble to my all-in after I show an ace because he took so long thinking...(my other card was a Q and he hit a K *&^%$£"!)...then saying "When I saw your ace I knew I had two live cards so off-course I called". I gave him absolutely no pot-odds there either. In these situations its hard to read him since he could raise with A 5 off-suit (and has done so many of times with other people going all-in).


Yet - here YOU have Q6 ... and above you berate somebody for having K8 in a similar spot .... AND you showed him an Ace BEFORE he made his decision.

Like, HELLO, WHATEVER, LIKE, REALLY

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

I'm sorry jaques but this is possibly the worst hand ever posted in the history of the poker forum. Well I'm not really sorry, but don't take it the wrong way just never ever play like this again if you have any ambitions of winning money in the game.

Q6?! What were you thinking my friend?

jacQues

fuzzbox wrote:

Every part of this hand stinks.
And every part of your justification stinks.
Yet - here YOU have Q6 ... and above you berate somebody for having K8 in a similar spot .... AND you showed him an Ace BEFORE he made his decision.
Like, HELLO, WHATEVER, LIKE, REALLY

A lesson on how not to behave on a public board wouldn't be bad for you IMHO.

The same situation? I made a descission based on pot odds. Now I'm not the brightest on this subject with sidepot action and I felt afterwards that I may have played the hand badly. I asked here, in order to get feedback which I got, with the intention to prevent simular mistakes I could make in the future.

Your post is not helpfull in any way, not even funny, and is your way of ventilating that you don't think much of my poker skills. If you feel that my play was the same as saying "I knew I had two live cards so off-course I called" after calling a ~8xBB all-in being on the BB with UTG who flat-called behind you but sucking out, be my guest, but not in this thread please.

I'm sure that there are other boards out there where you can flame, downtalk and laugh at others to your heart's content. This board is not one of those.

jacQues

cardshark202

jacQues wrote:

I'm sure that there are other boards out there where you can flame, downtalk and laugh at others to your heart's content. This board is not one of those.

jacQues

really? i've been on the wrong board the whole time so.

With regards to fuzz's post, I don't see where the unnecessary flaming is, he just told it like it is.

fuzzbox

jacQues wrote:

A lesson on how not to behave on a public board wouldn't be bad for you IMHO.

Where do I find a course for this?

Wombatman

cardshark202 wrote:

the worst hand ever posted in the history of the poker forum.

How about a poll on this then?

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

Where do I find a course for this?

try and learn from me

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

try and learn from me

Sounds like a plan ...

RoundTower

Wombatman wrote:

How about a poll on this then?

make it happen.