New Build Houses - When do you reach the 'Green' status?

ardara1

Any of you bunch want define what a 'Green Design' means? I've read and listened to too much waffle about green building - I think many believe that green architecture will save the planet.
My contention is that too much emphasis is being placed on GREEN DESIGN in new build. While the focus of the media is in this direction and we all feel comfortable with our Environmently building designs - the real battle to cut CO2 is forgotten about.

CJhaughey

Ardara1
I am a little confused by your post, firstly can you please enlighten me as to what the real battle to cut Co2 actually is ?
It is my belief that any and all reductions that a person can make is a step in the right direction.
What is the problem with emphasis being placed on green building design? I would consider it a good thing, as not only is it good for the planet it usually makes a house a lot more comfortable and cheaper to run for the occupant.
Would you prefer to have a standardised low performance house for people that didn't want an efficient house?
I have a low energy house with a solar hot water system, and heat recovery ventilation and the benefits are quite obvious even at this early juncture.
Our last ESB bill was 52 euro, I know that this has been a good summer but the fact remains that not having to heat water with electricity is a nice feeling.
To answer your question, what is green design?

Green design is the practical application of good design and construction to try and minimise the impact the house will have on the environment both during construction and living periods.

This may not necessarily involve complex or alternative heating systems but could involve in it's simplest application trying to have a S facing house incorporating passive solar heating in conjunction with good insulation to minimise the heat loss and maximise the solar gain.

ardara1

My question arose from the many comments made during my visit to the Sustainable Buildng show last week, both from purveyors of green technology and lectures on regulations and the introduction of energy labelling where a green build was deemed an A rated dwelling and how everything else was going to send us into oblivion - the difference between an A and a B rated building was around half a tonne of CO2 per year. (Or a single flight Dublin London) What I never heard mentioned at the show was how these houses are used (or the lifestyle of those that live in them) and how this determines carbon footprints rather than the house design. - Saving that extra 1/2 tonne should be strived for - but its not going to matter a damn within the bigger picture.

CJhaughey

As far as running costs and Co2 emmissions go then you may be justified in saying that a 1/2 ton of Co2 isn't much, but multiplied over the 50k houses that have been built annually over the last few years the total quickly adds up to a not insignificant figure.
It is my personal opinion that many of the newer houses may not even rate B.
Something that you didn't touch on is the construction type used, Concrete has a high embodied energy and is one of the biggest Co2 emissions that Ireland currently has, yet concrete block construction is still probably the most widely used form of house building method used in Ireland.
This has not been helped by the uncertainty fostered by the DOE in relation to the Tax relief on section 23 houses, Construct Ireland recently had an article where the DOE was refusing to grant section 23 status to a development because the timberframe houses were not finished with a concrete block outer leaf.
What percentage of Irelands Co2 emissions have been made by the profligate use of cement in the building industry? I would like to see the running costs taking into account the initial building type and the associated energy debt carried by the building method, ie concrete has highly embodied energy, timber less so.

ardara1

CJ you're falling into this sales thing again about sustainable build - wether the 1/2 tonne difference between the A at 1.5 tonneand B at 2 tonne (or A and Z if you want to relabel them to make it look better)- is bugger all when the 2 cars in the drive produce 4 tonnes EACH.
The European directive that brought these labels about SPECIFICALLY targetted EXISTING building to produce the CO2 saving - saying that they had the greatest potential - not new build.
And as for your Timber frame against concrete argument - give us a break - BOTH will perform - IF they're built properly. Timber frame as built in Ireland is not the panacea to our global warming probelms - far from it, standard Timber Frame specification in Ireland doesn't even meet the elemental values asked for in the building regulations - but then again build quality in all forms of constructions need improvement. The Gov't should concentrate its resources on educating the populus on the benefits from tighening up our construction practices and tweeking proven technologies like heating controls, - AND CUTTING DOWN ON OUR ENERGY USE NOW instead of throwing money at technologies that have become the 'Must have accessory'

CJhaughey

ardara1 wrote:

The Gov't should concentrate its resources on educating the populus on the benefits from tighening up our construction practices and tweeking proven technologies like heating controls, - AND CUTTING DOWN ON OUR ENERGY USE NOW instead of throwing money at technologies that have become the 'Must have accessory'

Most people now are just happy to be able to get a site and build a house, with the prices of sites and the difficulties involved in getting planning permission many people are being forced into buying from a developer or should I say political contributor;)
If these people can avail of a grant from the SEI towards a green heating system or perhaps a solar panel setup what is your quibble with that?
I think it is a step in the right direction maybe not soon enough, but nevertheless a positive step.
Trying to educate a populace about tightening up building practices will be like trying to teach swahili to most people, do you really think that people want to learn about U-values or the advantages of an airtight house with heat recovery ventilation?
Come on get real, most people are getting home, turning on the telly and watching Coronation st, not delving into building reference manuals.:rolleyes:

I take it by proven technologies, heating controls you mean a Thermostat?
I would agree with you there, a few degrees lower on the 'stat would mean a large reduction in energy usage, IF the house has been insulated correctly.:)

Boggle

If these people can avail of a grant from the SEI towards a green heating system or perhaps a solar panel setup what is your quibble with that?

Because - and I am qualified to say this - the SEI haven't a clue. They give grants as they like which then give people th impression that these grant aided products are the best thing going and unfortunately they arent.

They will tell you that they do not endorse any products but the fact is that they actively skew the market towards the one's they grant.

For example: How many people on this boards think geothermal works?? Probably all of you, right? Wrong! I get nothing from calls from people who have spent a fortune installing a geothermal system and now cannot afford to run it. I looked at an 1,800 sq/ft house the other week costing 2grand a year to heat - and that was only 6 hours a day in the winter!!
This puts my company in an awkward situation - I am trying to determine how to launch a new heating system that puts geo-therm to shame and I have to deal with the public who believe everything the SEI tells them...
Its anti competitive to grant one thing over another without the data to justify these grants and it is now hurting Irish industry.

Next you have solar thermal. Their own report indicates that these will only save stg17 a year in power! Why grant aid the stuff?? I'm not saying that this is the case and we are developing and testing our own system but all I am saying is where did they get the figures to make them decide it was a worthwhile granting?

Why not grantaid the most efficient of the lot - domestic wind??

You could easily take your home completely off grid with a wind/solar pv/backup generator option for the price of a geothermal system. Now that is a GREEN STATUS. Anything else is just a waste of potential...

CJhaughey

While I agree with you with regard to grant aiding wind power ,the sad fact is it doesn't work for everybody.
And I must take issue with you calling saying that Geothermal doesn't work, it does.
BUT most people including yourself are getting confused between Ground source heat pump(GSHP) and Geothermal which is using the earths heat
GSHP is actually Solar in origin.
And with regard to your example of an 1800sq ft house costing €2000 pa. to heat for 6 hrs a day in winter , sorry that example means nothing without specs on insulation, heatpump size, etc. It could be an uninsulated barn.
I am sure that your position on grants would change if your company had access to them;)

Boggle

And I must take issue with you calling saying that Geothermal doesn't work, it does.

I don't mind you taking issue with anything I say. In fact I encourage it but an argument telling me simply that it does does no service.
The fact is that the amount of people calling me with problems is a testimony that it doesn't work. You'll get heat but you'll pay for it.

BUT most people including yourself are getting confused between Ground source heat pump(GSHP) and Geothermal which is using the earths heat
GSHP is actually Solar in origin.

I know the difference CJHaughey.
Geothermal was when you drill deep, pump water down and it comes up hot. Additional heat, if needed, can then be added using a HEAT PUMP. Hence the term "ground source heat pump". Heat provided by the earth but also utilising a GSHP for additional heat. And you are right this can work well when done right.
What is sold in Ireland is the miserable excuse for a half brother of this but is labelled as the same. In Ireland they tell you to run your pipes a few feet underground so that your system can collect heat(Geothermal). Then you run it through a heat pump with typically a 4-6kW electric load to bring it up to "heating" temperature.

And with regard to your example of an 1800sq ft house costing €2000 pa. to heat for 6 hrs a day in winter , sorry that example means nothing without specs on insulation, heatpump size, etc. It could be an uninsulated barn.

It was just a typical detached house with what he said were reasonable levels of insulation.

I am sure that your position on grants would change if your company had access to them

Actually it wouldn't. I think if you bring in grants you will get too many unqualified idiots trying to sell rubbish to an uninformed public. Its bad enough already!!
My interest is in refining my prices so that i could give a quality turbine that would pay itself back in around 5-7 years.
Its either worth it or its not - grants won't change that!

CJhaughey

Look, I won't get into a huge debate over this but look at Iceland, the country.
Cold? Yes. How do you think they get hot water to their major city Reykjavik?
Answer: Geothermal.
Look at Rotorua in New Zealand they generate electricity from Geothermal energy.
Are there any similarities between the two countries? Yes both are near active volcanic activity.
Geothermal is taking heat from the earth whereas a GSHP merely collects and amplifies the heat in the surface of the earth that has been stored from the suns rays.
A Heat pump is the same as a refrigerator running in reverse, and all a GSHP does is collect the heat and concentrate it, it doesn't add heat.
The two systems are quite different.

Boggle wrote:

It was just a typical detached house with what he said were reasonable levels of insulation.

This is the reason, he doesn't know how much insulation he has? What U value his walls or doors or windows are? How much heat will be lost from all these openings?
For him a reasonable level of insulation may be 50mm of polystyrene.
If the guy is spending the guts of 20k on a GSHP system he should know a bit more about the energy demands of his house than " it has reasonable levels of insulation"
The answer to most of these problems is quite simple: Poor building practice and low levels of insulation mean that houses lose much more heat than they should.
There is nothing wrong with the technology of GSHP but in practice because of shoddy buildings and poor regulation many people are trying to heat a barn with a 18k euro candle.

Boggle

Look, I won't get into a huge debate over this but look at Iceland, the country.

I thought you meant the shopping centre...:eek:

A Heat pump is the same as a refrigerator running in reverse, and all a GSHP does is collect the heat and concentrate it, it doesn't add heat.

It does add heat. If you compress a liquid it heats - hence added heat. What do you think the 6kW load is for??

Geothermal is taking heat from the earth whereas a GSHP merely collects and amplifies the heat in the surface of the earth that has been stored from the suns rays.

I'm not in the habit of typing things twice so...

ME!!! wrote:

Geothermal was when you drill deep, pump water down and it comes up hot. Additional heat, if needed, can then be added using a HEAT PUMP.

If the guy is spending the guts of 20k on a GSHP system he should know a bit more about the energy demands of his house than " it has reasonable levels of insulation"

If it was a one off I wouldn't be making claims like "It doesn't work". I have even got an email for Carlow kilkenny energy agency telling us that they have alot of people complaining about them and wondering if we can help. I suppose every one of those are wrong? I suppose that the plumbers in the area are all wrong in that they now refuse to touch GSHP?
I'm not being reactionary - I am telling people what nobody seems them to want to know: that GSHP is not as good as it is promoted!

ardara1

Boggle wrote:

Because - and I am qualified to say this - the SEI haven't a clue. They give grants as they like which then give people th impression that these grant aided products are the best thing going and unfortunately they arent.

They will tell you that they do not endorse any products but the fact is that they actively skew the market towards the one's they grant.

I think geo does work - I think solar works - I also think that pv's work - but not as they're being sold.

Offer a grant in Ireland for wooden legs and it becoes a best seller. Go passive and a bit of renewable.
But by jesus - ditch the second car, the plasma and the 4 mobile phone chargers! - my point is that the argument is already lost - concentrating on 1/4 tonne savings on eternally insulating with duck feathers from a virgin coote is a bit of a waste of time - TIME TO LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE FOLKS

The passive design is the way to go - it doesn't make it green tho' if its the 'must have' on our second home - Going green on our build just makes room for more inefficient big palaces to be built - energy prices come down, because we've all gone green leaving some to indulge.

Carbon rationing - thats the way to go - i'm going back to watch eastenders on me plasma!

ardara1

Boggle wrote:

Because - and I am qualified to say this - the SEI haven't a clue. They give grants as they like which then give people th impression that these grant aided products are the best thing going and unfortunately they arent.

They will tell you that they do not endorse any products but the fact is that they actively skew the market towards the one's they grant.

For example: How many people on this boards think geothermal works?? Probably all of you, right? Wrong! I get nothing from calls from people who have spent a fortune installing a geothermal system and now cannot afford to run it. I looked at an 1,800 sq/ft house the other week costing 2grand a year to heat - and that was only 6 hours a day in the winter!!
This puts my company in an awkward situation - I am trying to determine how to launch a new heating system that puts geo-therm to shame and I have to deal with the public who believe everything the SEI tells them...
Its anti competitive to grant one thing over another without the data to justify these grants and it is now hurting Irish industry.

Next you have solar thermal. Their own report indicates that these will only save stg17 a year in power! Why grant aid the stuff?? I'm not saying that this is the case and we are developing and testing our own system but all I am saying is where did they get the figures to make them decide it was a worthwhile granting?

Why not grantaid the most efficient of the lot - domestic wind??

You could easily take your home completely off grid with a wind/solar pv/backup generator option for the price of a geothermal system. Now that is a GREEN STATUS. Anything else is just a waste of potential...

Come on Boggle - waht heat/diameter is the turbine - is it in proximeter to any other building - is it likely to run out of puff in 15 years? Is the wind constant? - Read the Low & Zero Carbon guide 2nd tier docs under Part L UK - tel me they;re wrong and I'l buy your gear.

CJhaughey

Boggle wrote:

It does add heat. If you compress a liquid it heats - hence added heat. What do you think the 6kW load is for??

YOu may not like typing things twice but I don't mind educating you;)
THE 6kw load is what the pump and compressor use to push/pull and pressurize the liquid from the collector pipes.
It is obvious from your posts that you really don't understand the basic principles of heat pumps and, perhaps if you really did understand the way that they work and their limitations then you would not be so slow to dismiss them as unworkable.

Boggle

Right CJ - any credibility you had just went straight out the window, down the street and is now playing with the pretty ladies on the corner...:D

Seriously, do you sell heatpumps? Do you know anything about them other than sales sheets? A circulating pump is not a heatpump, a heatpump is not a circulating pump. Repeat it over and over again if you like...

It is obvious from your posts that you really don't understand the basic principles of heat pumps and, perhaps if you really did understand the way that they work and their limitations then you would not be so slow to dismiss them as unworkable.

Seriously, do some research. get some facts. Learn.
Again, do you sell heatpumps?

Come on Boggle - waht heat/diameter is the turbine - is it in proximeter to any other building - is it likely to run out of puff in 15 years? Is the wind constant? - Read the Low & Zero Carbon guide 2nd tier docs under Part L UK - tel me they;re wrong and I'l buy your gear.

Gimme a link to it.
I'm not actually trying to sell you something, I'm making people aware that there are options out there for going carbon neutral.
Besides, I would never sell any crap that would run out of puff in 15 years. I'll leave that to the conartists.
PS the systems we design are foolproof and will far outlast any heatpump.

CJhaughey

For the record Boggle.
No, I do not, have not and will not ever sell heat pumps.
I have no connection or any interest in heat pump manufacturing or sales.
So thats out the way then
You have put your foot in it, Boggle, you are trying to sell an alternative to something which you obviously do not understand.
Again. Heatpumps do not make heat, they take low level existing heat and concentrate it in an area.
Read this and you may understand better what I am trying to say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
I can type this all day if you want, but it would really be better if you went and studied the competition to what you are pushing.
GSHPs work fine and are popular in many areas of the world including Ireland.
Just because some cowboys joined the game doesn't mean that the rodeo is over and all the horses have left town.
You obviously believe that what you are selling is the best, well all I can say is put it on the market and get it out there, if it is as good as you say and as foolproof then there should be nothing stopping people beating a path to your door especially as there is a 19.7% electricity price increase due in January
If your system is good it should stand the test of no grant aid , after all I bought my solar system when there was no grants, and I have no regrets.

Boggle

No, I do not, have not and will not ever sell heat pumps.
I have no connection or any interest in heat pump manufacturing or sales.
So thats out the way then

No problem - apologies if I appear confrontational on the subject but most of the people I see defending these systems have vested interests.

You have put your foot in it, Boggle, you are trying to sell an alternative to something which you obviously do not understand.

Au contraire, I understand very well.

Selling: I have no more interest in selling something here on boards than I do in jumping off a cliff. My interest has been in providing REAL information to those that read this forum as I am sick of seeing people who get sold on the next fashionable con.

Uneducated:I refer you back to your link.
See the diagram? See number 4? Compressor, yes?? Compress a substance and you create heat. Hence what you term as concentrating heat and not creating it is actually creating heat via compression. Its basic physics: Compress and you heat.

Where on earth do you think the 6kW energy goes to??

Note: In case you are interested, I am just off the phone with another person (this time in West Cork) who is being choked by the cost of their heatpump. You can blame cowboys all you like, but one of the plumbers I mentioned who wouldn't touch it has been a plumber for 35 years. The reason he won't touch it is because he, not being a cowboy, won't touch it as he feels he is responsible if it doesn't work.

CJhaughey

Boggle wrote:

I refer you back to your link.
See the diagram? See number 4? Compressor, yes?? Compress a substance and you create heat. Hence what you term as concentrating heat and not creating it is actually creating heat via compression. Its basic physics: Compress and you heat.

Where on earth do you think the 6kW energy goes to??

Once more ,read the first paragraph of the Wiki article.
It clearly states: A heat pump is a machine which moves heat from a low temperature reservoir to a higher temperature reservoir under supply of work.
so..... A low temperature reservoir is the ground the high temperature reservoir is the heating system in the house and the supply of work is the compressor.
I quote again for your benefit, from the paragraph, Efficiency.
" the work does not make heat, but moves existing heat "upstream".
Thats what the 6kw load is, not a resistive load.

I agree with you in that GSHP's are not ideal for many houses but in fact that is due to the house not the heatpumps efficiency.
My guess is that many plumbers even experienced ones do not understand enough about the technology to be able to confidently work on or specify a proper heat pump.
You really need a refrigeration engineer or perhaps a HVAC specialist to accurately spec a system.
There have been a few posts on here about people being dissatisfied with their installation.
My colleague has an air-air heatpump installed and is pleased with it, it heats his water and house with a 500w compressor.