Another enlightening discussion from the S/E last night

ianmc38 · 15-09-2006 10:15am #1

A few tables into the SE dc last night I got moved to the table with Mr K. Rag.

He asks me when is it correct to fold AA preflop. Him and his mate then nod in accord as he says that when 3 players are all-in preflop you have to fold AA. I try to explain to him that by folding there you are passing up a big edge and a great chance to quadruple up.

He then relates a story of a pro in the first level of the World Series who passed AA preflop after a couple of all-ins (does anyone know who this was?). Someone had kings, someones else queens and one of them hit a set, so it was a good fold. I said, thats results based thinking.

Him and his mate insist you have to fold after 3 allins.

I say to him that in a satellite I may do it in certain situations but not in any other tournament.

The guy's a legend. Everytime I'm at a table with him these days he gives me a good chuckle with some of his odds and strategies. Still made the final table which is much better than this calling station could manage.

Edit: What the fúck is with people limp raising AA from UTG and UTG+1. I saw it done at least 6 times last night and everyone was getting paid off.

careca · 15-09-2006 10:31am

Jesus, he could be right. I lost with AA couple of weeks ago in the Fitz after three players had gone all in before me.

When is his book coming out

Hitman Actual · 15-09-2006 10:34am

Is this the same guy as the "overpair to QQ" discussion? If so, is he just randomly coming up with these ideas from his own brain? Must be a strange place.

RedXIII · 15-09-2006 10:39am

Well id concider there stacks. also if they have an AK,AQ or pocket 8,9's(if u can see the flop and are pretty sure they dnt hit there set) u pretty much av them dominated...but at the end of the day ur always gonna av a bad beat, but i wudnt change my game cus of dat. my last AA i lost to a guy wit 57 ofsuit, he got to pair, he won...just my view, knw yeer all prob more experianced.......

o ill try to remember who that player was, pretty sure i saw that, or heard bout im

Oya..why do sum ppl av so much fukin luk. im playin against a pretty new player, & i know wen he has a hand nd wen he dosnt. i keep callin his bloofs on the turn wen he goes all in and find out he usually has 2-3 outs, like 5-7%....and he wins....like 5 times in a row....bastard

Ste05 · 15-09-2006 10:40am

ianmc38 wrote:

He then relates a story of a pro in the first level of the World Series who passed AA preflop after a couple of all-ins (does anyone know who this was?). Someone had kings, someones else queens and one of them hit a set, so it was a good fold.

How can you possibly argue with cold hard facts like this??

Seems completely standard to me...

:rolleyes: 3 All-In's = Fold AA everytime!

Hitman Actual · 15-09-2006 10:54am

ianmc38 wrote:

He then relates a story of a pro in the first level of the World Series who passed AA preflop after a couple of all-ins (does anyone know who this was?). Someone had kings, someones else queens and one of them hit a set, so it was a good fold. I said, thats results based thinking.

He may be confusing this with Paul Phillips folding KK to some heavy action in the first level. TBH, I'm sure if someone did admit to folding AA pre-flop in the WSOP, there would be such an outcry that everyone here would know about it.

ArmaniJeanss · 15-09-2006 11:07am

lenny_leonard wrote:

He may be confusing this with Paul Phillips folding KK to some heavy action in the first level. TBH, I'm sure if someone did admit to folding AA pre-flop in the WSOP, there would be such an outcry that everyone here would know about it.

I probably have this wrong, but I thought Mr Hellmuth admitted to this, a guy put him all-in pre-flop, and PHJ folded AA as he felt his edge/read over his opponents was so great that he didnt want to risk being sucked out on. I probably dreamt this (I dream about poker much too much !).

RedX111, welcome to the forum, but please spare a thought for the 35+ age group like myself, we really struggle with the txt spk

Flushdraw · 15-09-2006 4:34pm

I folded aces prelop yesterday for only the 2nd time ever and it turns out it wasnt the best decision! There was 11 players left, 4 tickets worth $475 into the EPT Dublin super satellite up for grabs and i was chip leader. Not sure it i played it too cautious but felt i didnt need to risk my chips here in order to claim a top 4 place...

>PokerStars Game #6283469346: Tournament #31445607, $12+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2006/09/14 - 14:09:12 (ET)
>Table '31445607 4' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
>Seat 1: mlirish2 (28500 in chips)
>Seat 2: numsig (15964 in chips)
>Seat 5: unoriginal (10404 in chips)
>Seat 6: FlushdrawIRE (39343 in chips)
>Seat 7: GRÅSTEIN (17276 in chips)
>Seat 8: Izakaar (12116 in chips)
>mlirish2: posts the ante 50
>numsig: posts the ante 50
>unoriginal: posts the ante 50
>FlushdrawIRE: posts the ante 50
>GRÅSTEIN: posts the ante 50
>Izakaar: posts the ante 50
>unoriginal: posts small blind 400
>FlushdrawIRE: posts big blind 800
>*** HOLE CARDS ***
>Dealt to FlushdrawIRE [Ah Ac]
>GRÅSTEIN: raises 1600 to 2400
>Izakaar: folds
>mlirish2: folds
>numsig: folds
>unoriginal: raises 7954 to 10354 and is all-in
>FlushdrawIRE: folds
>GRÅSTEIN: calls 7954
>*** FLOP *** [7h 3d 8d]
>*** TURN *** [7h 3d 8d] [Kh]
>*** RIVER *** [7h 3d 8d Kh] [Ad]
>*** SHOW DOWN ***
>unoriginal: shows [As Qc] (a pair of Aces)
>GRÅSTEIN: shows [9h 9c] (a pair of Nines)
>unoriginal collected 21808 from pot
>*** SUMMARY ***
>Total pot 21808 | Rake 0
>Board [7h 3d 8d Kh Ad]
>Seat 1: mlirish2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
>Seat 2: numsig (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
>Seat 5: unoriginal (small blind) showed [As Qc] and won (21808) with a pair of Aces
>Seat 6: FlushdrawIRE (big blind) folded before Flop
>Seat 7: GRÅSTEIN showed [9h 9c] and lost with a pair of Nines
>Seat 8: Izakaar folded before Flop (didn't bet)

spectre · 15-09-2006 4:54pm

Flushdraw wrote:

I folded aces prelop yesterday for only the 2nd time ever and it turns out it wasnt the best decision!

No offence but this is the most disgusting fold I've ever seen. The field size must reduce by 60% to get a ticket. This fold is insane.

Flushdraw · 15-09-2006 5:03pm

Not sure how u can start that reply with "no offence" but anyway...

The reason i posted it was for feedback so thanks for ur input. If i lost, i would drop to 5th in chips and then be up against it for the remainder of the game. I know i gave up a huge edge, but in a satellite where 1st pays the same as 4th i felt that i didnt need all the chips in play so i let it go. Was a bad fold in hindsight but the most disgusting, i doubt that. I got a ticket anyway so if my mind, it worked out fine

LuckyLloyd · 15-09-2006 5:20pm

This post has been deleted.

spectre · 15-09-2006 5:26pm

I don't mean to offend. Glad you got a ticket.

Flushdraw wrote:

If i lost, i would drop to 5th in chips

This would not be the end of the world. There would still be more players with less.

Worst case scenario is GRÅSTEIN winning both pots (assuming you were to push preflop). Even if you won the sidepot only, you would make a small loss on the hand.

Flushdraw wrote:

I know i gave up a huge edge, but in a satellite where 1st pays the same as 4th i felt that i didnt need all the chips in play so i let it go.

Why didn't you just sit out for the remainder of the tournament? How good an edge do you need to stick your money in?

Flushdraw wrote:

I got a ticket anyway so if my mind, it worked out fine

This is results-based thinking.

Ste05 · 15-09-2006 5:29pm

Flushdraw, that hand was not a satellite situation where folding AA is correct. That was a mistake.

breadmonkey · 15-09-2006 5:35pm

Flushdraw wrote:

Not sure how u can start that reply with "no offence" but anyway...

The reason i posted it was for feedback so thanks for ur input. If i lost, i would drop to 5th in chips and then be up against it for the remainder of the game. I know i gave up a huge edge, but in a satellite where 1st pays the same as 4th i felt that i didnt need all the chips in play so i let it go. Was a bad fold in hindsight but the most disgusting, i doubt that. I got a ticket anyway so if my mind, it worked out fine

If you lose this, you are still chip leader.???

Flushdraw · 15-09-2006 5:38pm

Thanks Lloyd.

The 2 opponents in question had a completely different style of play. Unoriginal was LAG and grastein was very tight. I felt grastein had a good enough hand to take out unoriginal and the short stack on the other table was just gone so with the final table beckoning, i was in a strong position.

A lot of players on the table were letting themselves get blinded away and if they attempted to steal and u reraised they would muck. U could pick up blinds once or twice and orbit comfortably so it wasnt just a spur of the moment fold aces, but all things considered, i dont think i needed to put myself in a postion to get sucked out on for a third of my stack. After all, aces is only one pair and i only lost 800 for my BB

Flushdraw · 15-09-2006 5:40pm

breadmonkey wrote:

If you lose this, you are still chip leader.???

If i lose 17k chips to grastein, i am 3rd in chips on my table and 5th over the 2 tables

breadmonkey · 15-09-2006 5:47pm

Sorry, I misread the HH.

Flushdraw · 15-09-2006 5:51pm

Spectre, appreciate ur input, If i had KK in that spot, would u recommend a fold?

Goodluck2me · 15-09-2006 5:53pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

RedX111, welcome to the forum, but please spare a thought for the 35+ age group like myself, we really struggle with the txt spk

well put, i agree and im a tad younger.

Flushdraw · 15-09-2006 6:21pm

Wrong thread me thinks...

Flushdraw · 15-09-2006 6:22pm

Queue NickyOD and HJ to slate my play also....;)

spectre · 15-09-2006 6:28pm

Flushdraw wrote:

Spectre, appreciate ur input, If i had KK in that spot, would u recommend a fold?

You are still too far from the bubble to lay down AA or KK

We have pegged the UTG raiser as being very tight.
KK is still miles ahead of his range. I think I might still push with QQ in your situation. You can fold everything else.

Flushdraw · 15-09-2006 6:42pm

I was thinking it was a tight fold and not one i normally make but i just got a bad feeling about that hand plus i was liable to tilt if my aces got cracked which could have resulted in an outside the money finish

eggie · 15-09-2006 6:57pm

personally i would push here, although the laydown shows you have great discipline and think strategically which are commendable attributes.

A lot of players lack the ability to lay down a good hand even if they think they are behind, obviously pre flop your not behind here. Well done in finishing in the money.

However, im sure you played other (weaker hands) pre flop after this, so why not play this one?

DeVore · 15-09-2006 7:39pm

At 3 all in's AA is probably less then 50/50 (or about that) to win. So, they are thinking its an underdog to win (which it may well be) but they mistake the fact that the pot is giving you monster odds. This isnt the first time I've seen this mistake made but I'd just nod and think about it and then say "oh yeah...."

DeV.

DeVore · 15-09-2006 7:40pm

As for the other debate. Even if I was on the bubble of a sat, I'd put a 5th of my stack on AA trying to burst the bubble myself.

DeV.

Another enlightening discussion from the S/E last night

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