Sit and go hand. Advice.

shoutman

NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $10+$1 (Real Money), #998,289,366
Adelaide Single Table Tournament, 14 Sep 2006 7:27 AM ET
Seat 1: Aeiz86 ($1,465 in chips)
Seat 2: shoutman0 ($1,370 in chips) KQ
Seat 3: xRuminx ($2,275 in chips)
Seat 5: joloro ($1,080 in chips)
Seat 6: skadaha ($1,280 in chips)
Seat 7: jpkelly80 ($4,050 in chips)
Seat 8: Annika70gbg ($1,270 in chips)
Seat 9: Puette ($740 in chips)
Seat 10: Frontloader. ($1,470 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
shoutman0 posts blind ($15), xRuminx posts blind ($30).

PRE-FLOP
joloro folds, skadaha calls $30, jpkelly80 calls $30, Annika70gbg calls $30, Puette folds, Frontloader. folds, Aeiz86 folds, shoutman0 calls $15, xRuminx checks.

FLOP [board cards KC,QD,JD ]
shoutman0 bets $200, xRuminx calls $200, skadaha calls $200, jpkelly80 folds, Annika70gbg folds.

TURN [board cards KC,QD,JD,JC ]
shoutman0 bets $600, xRuminx calls $600, skadaha bets $1,050 and is all-in, shoutman0 folds, xRuminx calls $450.

RIVER [board cards KC,QD,JD,JC,2H ]


SHOWDOWN
skadaha shows [ AD,JS ]
xRuminx shows [ 9C,AC ]
skadaha wins $3,450.
SUMMARY
Dealer: Aeiz86
Pot: $3,450
Aeiz86, loses $0
shoutman0, loses $830
xRuminx, loses $1,280
joloro, loses $0
skadaha, bets $1,280, collects $3,450, net $2,170
jpkelly80, loses $30
Annika70gbg, loses $30
Puette, loses $0
Frontloader., loses $0

I should call everytime to the reraise all in because of the pot odds?

Also how did I play the rest of the hand? Should I bet preflop to get some of the limpers out? I didnt want to because of the amount of limpers and I would be stuck out of position with a marginal hand.

cheers

ArmaniJeanss

shoutman wrote:

I should call everytime to the reraise all in because of the pot odds?

Also how did I play the rest of the hand? Should I bet preflop to get some of the limpers out? I didnt want to because of the amount of limpers and I would be stuck out of position with a marginal hand.

cheers

Messy hand all round.

I think you should call the turn bet as played, its 450 to call with 3450 in the pot, so between a) odds of hitting your 4 outs, b) small implied odds, and c) small chance that you ahead already and that they are both drawing, you just about have the odds to call. And you are so short stacked when you fold that you might be better tanking it and starting another game anyway !.

Pre-flop is OK. No need to raise with the blinds so low.
Flop bet is fine as well.
Slow down on the turn, if you checked and skadaha pushes followed by a call from xRuminX then you can safely fold knowing one of them has the J. (Edit:I've got the order very wrong here)
So go into CheckCall/CheckFold mode on the turn.
All quick analysis, messy old hand.

shoutman

I know where you are coming from and perhaps checking the turn is the best option but I was thinking if I didn't bet the turn it was surrendering the pot.

On the upside I got some nice cards after that and had two quick double ups and took it down in the end.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

shaydy

i dont like the way you've played it at all, i think a better line given that you've limped with 4 others would have been to check the flop here and raise any bet, if it went check check behind and the jack hit the turn id have no problem giving it up but id probably check call any pot sized turn bet and reevaluate the river.

boba_fett3099

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Also, you could not have known what xRuminx was going to do behind you.

Well wasn't the all-in was an under-raise so neither player could re-raise? I think you have to call here with the odds your getting and on the turn i think you need to bet less so you can get away with some kind of stack if someone comes over the top. Having said that i probably check the turn here to control the pot size and try and see a showdown as cheaply as possible.

sikes

Although it is a draw heavy board, there is no need to bet so much on the flop. Bet 110-140, in this case you may get raised by KJ, K10, QJ, AK(!), which will allow you get it in, this is why i dont want to check here. If you check, yes they will bet but you will be in a ugly situation where if you want to end the action there you will be pushing 1200 into a 300 pot!

Once the turn comes any A/J/10/9/diamond, we have to slow down and check. Depending on the bettor you will have to decide if you are still ahead and take it from there.

Anyother card and i prob continue out betting depending on opponent.

i think you have to call the allin

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

the problem with the hand isn't the call/fold at the end. either way we have been put in a position where we are going to have to win from being an underdog.

either we push the turn now, after the allin, and hope to pick up the 4k pot or we fold and hope for 2 quick double ups to allow us back on average.

If we fold we have one move, push or fold. When we push and get called, unless we hit a nice run of cards, i think we are going to be at least 60/40 underdog. So we need to win two of these to get a playable stack, the difference in winning 2 40/60 and winning one 1/7 shot is very minimal and taking into the account that we will be a big stack if we call (and twice the amount if we try two double ups), we must call. this is not a pot odds call.

The Snapper

My $0.02 FWIW.

I limp preflop with KQ and 3 limpers ahead.

OOP early (level 1/2 ?) with top 2 in an unraised pot and with this dangerous board 5 players seeing flop.

I check the flop. If I bet its 100-150 enough to find out if there's a monster out there and fold to any action (read dependant). No need to gamble with the dead money early on, I prefer to pick up some reads and move when I have some idea were I'm at in a hand.

I check the Turn. Given no reads on villains, If only one called the flop bet I might reckon to be ahead here often enough, but called x 2 and a 2nd J hitting you figure to be ahead a very small % of times.You are not often folding the best hand here, so check fold the turn is IMHO a +ev move.

In general, there is no need to get involved in these SnG's till level 3 by then most of the maniacs are either gone or big stacked and you should have some real solid reads.

Edit to include.

As played, your turn bet is half your stack and pot commits. If you are making that bet you should probably just push. Being pedantic here but basically check or push the turn.

spectre

Pre-flop is fine.

The flop bet is bad. With 4 left to act, over-betting is suicide. You need to keep this pot small since you are so vulnerable. I will usually check here and call any bet.

If the turn is safe I lead out, otherwise I check and reevaluate.
As played, your turn bet is also very bad. The board has just got a whole lot scarier and you decide to bet your vulnerable hand again thus commiting yourself to the hand.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I don't wish to be argumentative. However, I do believe that there is value in analysing whether we call or fold the all - in off the turn.

1) As described earlier, we will be committing entire stack on a 1/11 shot. Not 1/7.

2) If we fold, we will be left with 540 when blinds are still 15 / 30. I think that there is a chance that in two rounds of the button you can find a situation where you are better than a 3/2 dog.

3) If we do double our stack we may find steal opportunities / have enough time to wait for another situation where we are better than a 3/2 dog.


The reason I believe the call / fold on the end is interesting is that if you are sure that you are behind throwing in your chips on that thin a draw is a give up play. My attitude would be that it is worth fighting on with 15+ BBs.

I can see understand your train of thought about the difference betwen hitting and having a dominant stack and folding and needing to double up to survive. However, I am not sure that the trade off is worth a gamble on a 1/11 shot IMO.

Again, correct me if there are factual errors here.

yes your right it is 11/1 and not 7/1 sorry. this makes it a little closer however i still think i go with the call. with the stack we are left with we need to steal etc, and when we do and get called we can be at best 60/40, thats where i was coming from on that.

as for the situation that has arisen, getting into this position is a mistake, and should, by taking advice given in previous posts, be avoided. if we are deep then clearly pot odds dictate a fold

The Snapper

shoutman wrote:

I was thinking if I didn't bet the turn it was surrendering the pot.

This thinking is very common but very very wrong. Most times, yes, you surrender the pot. Is it better than surrendering your chips though ?.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

shoutman

Right so far it has been established that I have played the hand poorly from the flop onwards, by most peoples account.

I think showing my train of thought here might help out somewhat to why I bet the flop etc.

Flop comes KQJ I have top two pair...
As it is a dangerous flop with a possible straight/straight draw and flushdraw possiblilites I would of liked to take it down here.
At this stage we can almost certaintly rule out trips (a lot of players playing $10 sngs are abc players so limping with premium hands is out of the question imo.
Ak is a possibility as some people do like to limp with a hand like this in the early stages of a tourney, likewise AQ and AJ are also likely.

With top two pair here I feel that I am ahead 95% of the time and would only be behind to a10.

So I bet 200 into a 150 pot looking to take it down. It would be logical to think that the only people who call this bet are those who have one pair and a flush draw or one pair and a straight draw.
However in my experience at these level sngs it seems that people are willing to call on flush draws when they do not have the odds, so I think that can be included.

So two callers call my bet and I'm thinking, a10 distinct possibility but would the second caller not reraise with it incase the first one or myself is on a flush draw?
To me that rules him out.
In certain cases If I had the a10 on that board and there was a bet before me I would reraise, better to win a small pot then lose a big.

So turn comes another J, although it is a scare card I'm still betting it, it is not a card that will fulfill a flush or a straight draw. So I bet less then pot here changing my tune from overbetting the flop, I think if you put yourself in the other players positions this is a strong bet and you are only going to call it if you are ahead, I have committed the majority of my stack to this hand so unless that J changed things I have won the hand, the j did change things and when the guy reraised all in I put him on AJ J10, definately trips.
With 530 chips left I dont see why I should put them into the pot on a long shot, yes if I win I will have a lot of chips, but not neccesarily enough that would allow me to cruise to victory either.
ArmaniJeans said that I might be better off starting a new game anyway, I think this kind of thought is definately -ev.
I have enough chips to pick my spot, even enough chips to see a flop or two.
I believe there is enough play in my chip stack to warrant saving it.
Yes to win this sng I got a run of cards, but as lloyd said already the advice should not be results orientated.

Anyway thats my thoughts on why I played how I played.

Obviously people are going to say I played the hand poorly and quite possibly I did.

But as Lloyd points out I think the most interesting part of the hand is the Call/fold on the turn.

mewso

If you are betting the flop to price out players then 100 into a 150 pot is plenty. If you betting the flop to make your opponents fold then 200 is fair enough.

With 100 bet on the flop then on the turn a 300 bet and an easier fold to the all-in. Just an alternative.

I don't think you played it particularly badly I just agree with the concept of avoiding trouble early on in these level of sit and gos but you flopped a big hand here and they are the only type of hands that you should be getting involved with early anyway so it's tough to avoid.

eggie

Think the biggest mistake was leading the turn against two players who already overcalled twice, on a scary board (for you). Against one player a push might put off his flush draw, you still have a small redraw for the house if he has a J.

Against two players i think its safe to assume that one has a jack, check folding here would be my idea of playing it out, would have saved some chips, good lay down all the same even after potentially committing sucicide. I dont worry too much about pot odds in this situation cause your either way behind or taking it down there and then.

Rnger

sikes wrote:

yes your right it is 11/1 and not 7/1 sorry. this makes it a little closer however i still think i go with the call. with the stack we are left with we need to steal etc, and when we do and get called we can be at best 60/40, thats where i was coming from on that.

as for the situation that has arisen, getting into this position is a mistake, and should, by taking advice given in previous posts, be avoided. if we are deep then clearly pot odds dictate a fold

you more likely to hit 2 x 70/30 shots than you are to make a 11/1 shot. I dont know why you still think this is a call

Bandana boy

I think once you have got yourself into the situation you did on the turn a call is not as horrible as people make out
But placing a bet on turn which will give you the odds to call if your raised is horrible
I call this the Twerg principle in honour of a player who does this a lot with gutshots :-)
Betting the turn is bad the j is a particularily horrible card especially with the amount of callers you got with your flop bet check call or check fold would be better

Well done on recovering to win though

NickyOD

Even with top 2 pair I'm chacking this flop. You're OOP and the board is so draw heavy that you're guaranteed callers. I'd rather get to a showdown as cheaply as possible than get half my stack in on the turn. No one is folding a flush draw or stright draw in a $10 SnG. You'd be better off CRAI than inflating the pot here.

sikes

Rnger wrote:

you more likely to hit 2 x 70/30 shots than you are to make a 11/1 shot. I dont know why you still think this is a call

by hitting 5.5/1 (two 70/30) you are getting a 2k stack

by hitting the 11/1 you are getting 4k stack. (biggest stack at table)

obviously with the odds being 11/1 and not 7/1 as i mentioned earlier, it is a closer call but i am sticking with pushing > folding here.

Rnger

yeah your right. i completely forgot about what your left with. I was just thinking in terms of survival