"I've got Aces!"

NickyOD · 13-09-2006 8:21am #1

Situation: On the bubble in a big NLH competition Player A makes a big raise under the gun. The button moves all in announcing, ‘I’ve got aces, you had better pass if you want to make the money punk!’ How should the TD rule?

Scouser in Dub · 13-09-2006 8:40am

His hand is live and he gets a time penalty after the hand

marius · 13-09-2006 9:21am

NickyOD wrote:

Situation: On the bubble in a big NLH competition Player A makes a big raise under the gun. The button moves all in announcing, ‘I’ve got aces, you had better pass if you want to make the money punk!’ How should the TD rule?

Dont think there is anything to rule on is there? If the hand plays out and he really does have aces then he loses as he has declared his true holding. From this bit of speech play all we know is that he deffo does not have aces - or he is an 'assclown'.

jacQues · 13-09-2006 11:08am

marius wrote:

Dont think there is anything to rule on is there? If the hand plays out and he really does have aces then he loses as he has declared his true holding. From this bit of speech play all we know is that he deffo does not have aces - or he is an 'assclown'.

Hold on!

Is the rule not that if you declare your hand you show it? In other words - there is NO ruling needed here UNLESS the other player (original raiser) asks the floor manager for one, in which case this floor manager checks if the player actually does have aces. If so, they're exposed (before the other player chooses to call or fold) and if not they're not exposed. Either way, his/her hand is live.

* Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I _think_ the rules should be applied.

Linford · 13-09-2006 12:31pm

marius wrote:

Dont think there is anything to rule on is there? If the hand plays out and he really does have aces then he loses as he has declared his true holding. From this bit of speech play all we know is that he deffo does not have aces - or he is an 'assclown'.

I would say he does have aces (as well as being an assclown) and doesn't want to be called (as they're not infalible). I'd be interested in what the ruling on this should be, is "coffee housing" allowed?

Mellor · 13-09-2006 12:33pm

jacQues wrote:

If so, they're exposed (before the other player chooses to call or fold) and if not they're not exposed. Either way, his/her hand is live.

Exposed or not the other player will find out if he has aces this way. Wouldn't be a bad way to do it.
What way was it called on the night???

RoundTower · 13-09-2006 12:43pm

If I was TD I would rule that the action is on player A to call or fold.

There are other rulings possible but they are all gay.

Flipper · 13-09-2006 12:50pm

If it was up to me, I'd rule his hand to be live. As soon as the hand was over I would issue a strong warning. I'm sure everyone would brand him as an un-ethical twit afterwards anyway.

connie147 · 13-09-2006 12:55pm

I agree with RT. Player A has got a decision to make. Get on with it.

Not saying I agree with the ethics of it. We all try to let on we have certain hands by betting to represent flushes etc etc, we just dont say we have it.
I dont know the official ruling though.

ArmaniJeanss · 13-09-2006 12:57pm

Flipper wrote:

If it was up to me, I'd rule his hand to be live. As soon as the hand was over I would issue a strong wedgie.

FYP

TheDuck32 · 13-09-2006 1:01pm

the hand is live. If the player had reraised but was not all in he would be held to check, fold or call for the remainder of the hand, but as he is all-in in this case there is nothing to be done but give him a warning after the hand that any more speech play will result in a time penalty away from the table.

There should however be an immediate 20min penalty for the use of the word "punk" outside the 1980's

What was the ruling in the end?
I assume he had the Aces?

DeVore · 13-09-2006 1:22pm

Firstly its player A's turn, he should make a decision as has been said.
Secondly if player B doesnt have aces then its just headsup speech play and I would probably just suggest he not indulge in it in future but no official action. If he DOES have aces I'd give him a 10 min penalty from the table.

This situation (almost exactly) arose in Vienna (I think Flipper and Len will remember it) and that was the ruling given by Kremser (for what thats worth).

If player A and B know each other then it could easily be collusion so that A doesnt walk into B's aces and go out on the bubble, thats why I would penalise B.

DeV.

careca · 13-09-2006 1:25pm

TheDuck32 wrote:

There should however be an immediate 20min penalty for the use of the word "punk" outside the 1980's

What was the ruling in the end?
I assume he had the Aces?

I don't think this hand actually happened, as it was also posted on the hendon mob site and the question put to some players/tds. The worrying thing is the different answers from some of the respected tds in europe. surely there should only be one outcome (whatever it is) and it should be made standard across all casinos. About time some came up with a complete list of rules.

marius · 13-09-2006 1:37pm

DeVore wrote:

Firstly its player A's turn, he should make a decision as has been said.

agreed.

DeVore wrote:

Secondly if player B doesnt have aces then its just headsup speech play and I would probably just suggest he not indulge in it in future but no official action.

agreed.

DeVore wrote:

If he DOES have aces I'd give him a 10 min penalty from the table.

This is where I disagree. I remember a similar thread on Boards and the 'conclusion' was that if a player declared his actual holding and it goes to showdown then his hand is ruled dead!

A 10 min penalty is nothing really - might even ensure he makes it past the bubble! Especially for something that could easily be construed as collusion.

5starpool · 13-09-2006 1:46pm

careca wrote:

About time some came up with a complete list of rules.

Ok, I'll do it.

1. Don't be an idiot.
2. Don't outdraw me or call when I am bluffing.
3. Use common sense.

That's about all we need really I think.

brianmc · 13-09-2006 2:24pm

5starpool wrote:

Ok, I'll do it.

1. Don't be an idiot.
2. Don't outdraw me or call when I am bluffing.
3. Use common sense.

That's about all we need really I think.

Of course a more complete version of these rules would include some guidelines on things like where to find and how to identify common sense, along with how to implement common sense and steps toward eradicating idiocy.

I find that while the above set of rules are quite good that the information above is most critical in any of the tournaments I've played in.

NickyOD · 13-09-2006 6:00pm

DeVore wrote:

Firstly its player A's turn, he should make a decision as has been said.
Secondly if player B doesnt have aces then its just headsup speech play and I would probably just suggest he not indulge in it in future but no official action. If he DOES have aces I'd give him a 10 min penalty from the table.

This situation (almost exactly) arose in Vienna (I think Flipper and Len will remember it) and that was the ruling given by Kremser (for what thats worth).

If player A and B know each other then it could easily be collusion so that A doesnt walk into B's aces and go out on the bubble, thats why I would penalise B.

DeV.

Okay. Firstly this is not a Heads up situation. There are 3 players still in with a decision to make after the button pushes.

Also what happens if at the end of the hand he shows Aces. How is this any differeny from going all in and turning your cards face up on the table?

"I've got Aces!"

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