Could he have demanded the pot?

connie147

Live €100 mtt freeze-out. 1st blind level. hero and villian both have starting stacks of 8,000.
Blinds 25/50, folded to me in the sb, I limp with 6d-7d. BB (LAG,well known to me with the added bonus of a good few pints inside him) raises to 350.I flat call.
Flop comes Jd-8h-6h. I check,he bets 500,I call.
Turn comes 5h, I check,he bets 500, I insta call (from playing often with him,my read is he has not got a hand here.)
River brings 8c. I check, he bets 1,000 and I call pretty quickly. He says "flush
Ace high,". I say "good enough,nice hand " and throw in my cards (they actually landed on top of the river card).
Then he declares "I havent the flush at all, just ace high!! The dealer,without asking, turned over my cards showing a pair of sixes and awarded me the pot.

This brings up the following questions:

1: Could he claim the pot as I had thrown in my hand?
2: Was the dealer wrong to take the initiative and turn over my hand?
3: If my cards had reached the muck was my hand irretrievable
4: Was my hand dead?

Thinking about it afterwards, I could easily see where this could happen again
so Id like to get some thoughts on it.

5starpool

I believe the dealer was definitely wrong for turning over your cards, he should have taken them, put them in the muck and gave the pot to the other guy. If you had managed to retrieve them since they didn't touch the muck (i believe from reading) then your 2 pair would have been allowed to take the pot.

In the above circumstances I believe your hand was still live and then should be allowed to win, but the dealer should get instructions never to turn over a players hand again like that. In the case where it hits the muck, your cards would be dead, full stop.

my 2c.

Edit: If the other guy deliberately misdeclared his hand he deserves a nipple twisting or something.

Bandana boy

I think strictly speaking
1 your hand is dead.
2 but its obv you didnt call 1000 on river without at least a paired card so your winning the hand
3 yes
4 yes but dealer used common sense and realised that what would have ensued if he pushed chips to other dude would have involved a tire iron

I would be tempted to ask house to remove player from game for this and at least would have my tyre iron closer to hand than the boot of my car

30something

This deserves serious consideration.

I always understood that if a player declared a hand that was less then his true hand he was stuck with his declaration, ie penalised for mis-declaring. It follows that if he over-declares his hand he should forfeit the pot irrespective of whether or not the other player is ahead.

It is my view that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should a player who is mis-led into believing he has the worst hand by a false declaration, and who then mucks his cards because of that false declaration, be penalised.

If it is not a rule then it ought to be.

PokerSquid

hmm, interesting question. I'd have been really ticked.

checking poker.com rules...('official'?)...

"...
1. A player must show all cards in the hand face-up on the table to win any part of the pot.
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot...."

however, from the 'lowball' rules (which also might apply)...

"...If you miscall your hand and cause another player to foul his or her hand, your hand is dead. If both hands remain intact, the best hand wins. If a miscalled hand occurs in a multihanded pot, the miscalled hand is dead, and the best remaining hand wins the pot. For your own protection, always hold your hand until you see your opponent’s cards..."

NickyOD

This happened to me once, when I was dealing, where a player thought he had a straight and didn't. Luckily the other palyer had held on to his cards.

I would rule his hand to have been dead before yours for intentionally declaring the wrong hand. This is one of those situations where common sense must prevail. I have seen pots awarded to the other player in this situation though, which is why I never give up my hand until I either actually see the other guys hand or the pot is actually pushed towards me.

This is one of the reasons why dealers should always say "Showdown please" or "Please show your hands". He's not going to get the pot anyway so why not say "good enough" but hold on to your cards anyway. He will still have to show his flush.

smurph

That is why I think that if I call a player he should turn over his cards. Okay so you get a good read on a guy and know he is on a bluff, I would still like to see his cards, I have put my chips into the pot to call him and see his hand.

I kind of take the view of not believing a word of anyone at the poker table, so if he says flush or set or anything I will hold my cards til he shows. It both players just turned over their cards it would stop all of this.

Unfortunately its like trying to get blood from a stone trying to get them to turn over their cards.

It happened in Vegas in a cash game I was in. The board read had 7, 8 9 10 K. Player A bet and was called by another player, Player A announces straight, other guy mucks his cards. Then player A turns over pocket 55's and takes pot. Other guy went ballistic as he had a 10. Player A then says smuggly, "Don't tell me you believe everthing you hear at a poker table". I thought it was nasty, but the dealer say he could do nothing as the other player mucked his cards. Player A got cleaned out over the next hour so everyone was happy in the end.