violence in Ireland over the weekend

gazzer

Just listening to Gerry Ryan this morning and residents of Moyross Estate in Limerick were on about about the fear they are going through from scumbags in the area.. It sounds like somewhere in Beiruit. The conversation stemmed from this incident

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/09/11/story276269.html.

I hope they catch the scumbag who did this to those poor kids and deal with him properly..

Between that incident and the guy who was stabbed to death up in popintree on sat night at his sisters 21st.. the place is going mad...

Terry

the place is going mad?
where have you been living?

Mossy Monk

it is disgusting what happened

but scumbags aren't a new addition to Irish society, sadly

Cianos

Mossy Monk wrote:

but scumbags aren't a new addition to Irish society, sadly

Or any society

gazzer

@ julep... dont worry i havnt been living under a rock for the last few years (lol) and where i live (Dublin 15) can be rough enough at times.. I think it was just the fact that 2 young kids have become the latest victims of this 'cancer' that seems to be all over the country really hit home with me... i can only imagine what i would be feeling if that had happened to me little niece and nephew.

Bedhead

Was absolutely horrified as well - like you Gazzer I could not stop thinking about my little niece and nephew... Gerry Ryan though approached the situation all wrong though. His cried of "lock them up, the gougers" only makes things worse. Sending the people who did that to prison will only teach them criminality on a larger scale, it will get them more involved, not teach them a lesson at all. Your upbringing and education is the key - I am surprised at Gerry Ryan being so reactionary and just mouthing useless rhetoric.

Mossy Monk

Bedhead wrote:

Sending the people who did that to prison will only teach them criminality on a larger scale, it will get them more involved, not teach them a lesson at all. Your upbringing and education is the key

so they shouldn't be jailed at all then? upbringing is too late for these people and would they be interested in education? unlikely imo

Bedhead

No - I didn't say they shouldn't be jailed at all. But jail could be combined with some sort of education, not necessarily your typical sit down with your books and learn education but something (perhaps a trade??). How do you know they wouldn't be interested in education? And from what I heard on the GR show some of these guys are very young so maybe it isn't too late for upbringing although I think you could be right on that point. All I'm saying is that its been proven time and time again that prison is not necessarily the best environment in which to learn from your mistakes so we need to start looking at some alternatives if we are to stop this from happening again...

sioda

A person who would do this doesn't deserve any treatment how much would X long prison term cost compared to a shot to the back of the head which is less cruel than an animal like that deserves

Prison as a previous poster has mentioned is only a further criminality education for scum like this.

haunted-room

sioda wrote:

A person who would do this doesn't deserve any treatment how much would X long prison term cost compared to a shot to the back of the head which is less cruel than an animal like that deserves

Completely agree

godtabh

Bedhead wrote:

Was absolutely horrified as well - like you Gazzer I could not stop thinking about my little niece and nephew... Gerry Ryan though approached the situation all wrong though. His cried of "lock them up, the gougers" only makes things worse. Sending the people who did that to prison will only teach them criminality on a larger scale, it will get them more involved, not teach them a lesson at all. Your upbringing and education is the key - I am surprised at Gerry Ryan being so reactionary and just mouthing useless rhetoric.

What would you suggest they do? Ask them to behave in the hope that they'll actually listen to you

Mossy Monk

Bedhead wrote:

How do you know they wouldn't be interested in education?

never did i say they wouldn't be interested. i said it was unlikely
is there any place where they do this? what is the success rate?

exiztone

Nothing wrong with death penalty. Maybe we could reintroduce it just for Limerick until we wipe the scum out

Bedhead

It used to be done here once upon a time! Inmates were trained as car mechanics in the hope that it would give them a purpose when they got out of jail... Its done in alot of European countries as well I think. I'm not suggesting that these people should not be punished - not for one minute! But I just think in the light of the fact that our crimes rates appear to be rising and we have one of the higest imprisonment rates in Europe we need to think outside the box. My gut is telling me that I would like to beat those little gits into a pulp but I know it wouldnt do any good because there would be thousands more waiting to take their place and do the same thing.

punky

Yeah, there's a fierce amount of 'scumbaggery' about these days. Nowhere does knackbags quite like the Oirish. Well, maybe the Brits.

But I have to say calling for people to be shot in the back of the head is a bit reactionary and extreme. Obviously we should be angry about this stuff but there's no need to implement 'state scumbaggery'. We need to hold the higher ground.

joebhoy1916

punky wrote:

But I have to say calling for people to be shot in the back of the head is a bit reactionary and extreme.

I agree with that. Amazing if someone did shoot one of them you would be calling them *SCUM* next.

Who are the scumbags anyways?

If the woman refused to give someone a lift as they say then they should find out who done this attack right? But I wonder will someone be caught for this? Doubt it

MonkeyWrench

Chemical castration should be introduced for the thugs parents and themselves. This would put an end to the endless cycle of new thugs coming through.

Joeface

1.) Spike Island should be re-opened and be a prison run by the Army with forced labour.
2.) education should be provided
3.)No SKY and Moblie Phones... 1 Visit per month
4.) Any one with 10 convicitons or more should be jailed without early release for 10 years.
5.)No day releases to buy new trainers
6.)All prisoners should have to under go drug tests any failures should suffer forced cold turkey
7.) Any moneys earned for 5 years after release 40% should go to victims.
8.) Public beatings for teenage repeat offendeds ...ie 10 lashes of the cane.

and no death penatly .kill solves nothing.

all of the above is after witnessing some of the ppl with convictions to as many as 30 and getting suspened sentences ...What use is that the have never learned any thing. not one bloody thing and the go back out on the street. I dont blame the Gardai for failing what can they do. These ppl are just stupid and will never learn. If they go to jail young and come out old others may learn from there mistakes.

ferdi

exiztone wrote:

Nothing wrong with death penalty. Maybe we could reintroduce it just for Limerick until we wipe the scum out

yeah, good man yorself :rolleyes:

Dyr

why reopen spike?...just dump them there and mine the water's around it

Joeface

u could just mine the water around it any way. I just want the prisons to be hell on earth. u cant just dump them out there cause then ppl with forget , if they forget well then the same things will happen again. If they go to Prison and come back ... others will see how it broke them. Also the Vigilant GAA memebers of 50years ago need to brought back. I know a few ppl how need a good beating to scare the straight.

Dilly1

ya see this is the unfortunate side effect of lefty political correctness gone mad. The scumbags are untouchable and they are laughing all the way back to their house (after being released with a slap on the wrist or not arrested at all).

Ive given up calling the cops where I live, they tell me there is nothing they can do because the trouble makers are teenagers. Why can't they bring back the chain gangs and put these guys to good use, building and enhancing Irelands infrastructure !. A top law enforcement officer from Arizona recently stated that we need to come down harder on them and treat them all as adults, because they know full well what they are doing, and are doing it because they know they can get away with it.

Also, there is a massive cocaine epidemic in Ireland, most parents and the press dont even realise just how bad it is yet. It leads to alot of violence, its a violent drug. I know someone who recently smashed up their mothers house after a week long bender on Coke !. and it was a girl !.
I am sure the cops must realise just how many people are caning it every weekend. I know tonnes of people who cant get enough of the stuff, its just nuts !.

hotnipples

in fairness now, this idea of education in a prison is ridiculous. It's already hard enough for innocent people learning trades to get jobs so how would these prisoners manage to compete in the outside world after their release. Their in prison, its their fault for doing the crime, they should not be allowed benefit from education while in there.

As far as the limerick thing goes, its worrying, going back to Limerick for college on the 25th. Never feel comfortable leaving the car around, even in the student village

sioda

exiztone wrote:

Nothing wrong with death penalty. Maybe we could reintroduce it just for Limerick until we wipe the scum out

I hope you are refering to the scum element in Limerick and not the city itself.

I think some sort of drastic measures have to be taken coz the law is just not working in certain areas in cities all over the country

exiztone

sioda wrote:

I hope you are refering to the scum element in Limerick and not the city itself.

Of course

Marksie

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5333394.stm

as the above shows it is happening everywhere.

Problem is they are just getting away with it, and they see the ones running the country breaking the law to suit themselves and getting away with it.

Its all talk about doing something butno action..the will isnt there. Undoubtedly you will get a lot of promises in the run up to teh election but it will be just that..hot air.

cournioni

It happens everywhere... I read something about a petrol bomb being thrown at a house in Cavan town on Christmas Eve, with children in it also. Sick is all that I can say. People like this make me think that punishment beatings are a good thing.

Pure scum.

BobTheBeat

No easy answer to any of this.

Mandatory sentences would cost the state a bloody fortune in terms of keeping the f&*kers fed, clothed and educated. We need to catch all of this crap early,before the kids actually start causing hassle and getting into trouble. I'd rather see the money being spent on resource centre's and work programs for young kids and their parents respectively, than on some stone faced scum bag who has no intention of ever going straight.

But as far as treating people already in the penal system goes,
Forced labour sounds like a good plan, let them repay the country for the crime they committed and for the money that is being spent on them whilst being kept in prison.

TerrorFirmer

Remember that guy in the US who made the prisoners pay for their meals, work in the scorching sun, sleep in the freezing cold and they weren't allowed watch anything other then the religion channel among dozens of other things to make their every moment in prison a living hell...

That guy is what we need!

DublinWriter

MonkeyWrench wrote:

Chemical castration should be introduced for the thugs parents and themselves. This would put an end to the endless cycle of new thugs coming through.

So far I've seen people advocate the above and arbitrary death penalities and ethnic cleansing in this thread.

It's amazing to see Hitler's ideas still being taken seriously.

Anyways, I've a theory that you only find the underclass in rich countries with low taxation rates and low social investment.

For example:

Underclass in Ireland, UK, USA.

No such thing in Belgium, France, Germany, Canada.

Does that theory sound bonkers?

sioda

DublinWriter wrote:

So far I've seen people advocate the above and arbitrary death penalities and ethnic cleansing in this thread.

It's amazing to see Hitler's ideas still being taken seriously.

Anyways, I've a theory that you only find the underclass in rich countries with low taxation rates and low social investment.

For example:

Underclass in Ireland, UK, USA.

No such thing in Belgium, France, Germany, Canada.

Does that theory sound bonkers?

France: You must have visited the nice areas France has some awful underclass problems even Paris has what can only be described as Slum areas

Germany: Yet again a very close examination under the surface will turn up all the problems we have here in Ireland and even more racially based crime due to germany's positioning with eastern Europe.

Can't comment on Canada or Belguim

Terry

oh dear lord. here we go again.

just because you went to a nice touristy area in [insert resort here], that doesn't mean that there are no scumbags in that country. they are all over the world. honestly. they're everywhere. they are just better hidden in other places.

I worked in Ballyfermot for about a year. i never once saw a scumbag or witnessed a scumbag related crime. therefore there are no scumbags in Ballyfrermot. right?

Mossy Monk

HavoK wrote:

Remember that guy in the US who made the prisoners pay for their meals, work in the scorching sun, sleep in the freezing cold and they weren't allowed watch anything other then the religion channel among dozens of other things to make their every moment in prison a living hell...

That guy is what we need!

too right
make it a punishment

DublinWriter

julep wrote:

oh dear lord. here we go again.

just because you went to a nice touristy area in [insert resort here], that doesn't mean that there are no scumbags in that country.

I worked in Germany for a year, Belgium for three years, and the UK for two.

Oh dear lord. Here we go again indeed. Sarky little presumptious comments tearing yet another boards discussion to shreads.

Terry

and your point is?

DublinWriter

julep wrote:

and your point is?

made.

luckat

I see the Mrs Flog-em brigade is out in force, waving rolling-pins and shouting for revenge.

Joeface

well since we cant agree on any thing the only way to solve irelands crime problems is this............ We need A Batman .


reply to bobmeaney's comment : Yes it would cost the state(us) a bloody fortune to being with but the idea is that over time the fear of prision hell and the number of crimes been punished reduces over time.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Terry

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

and let's not forget those lovely folks in germany, belgium, austria, croatia, greece and so on.

the theory that scumbags only exist in the english speaking west is the most laughable thing i have ever heard.

like i said, just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Trinity

This is just a shocking story. Honestly dont know what kind of punishment would be suitable for someone that tries to burn toddlers alive.

Its horrifying.

apparently they were hired to do it, wonder how much they charge for burning innocent babies alive - probably got a tenner. - 3 kids aged between 14 -16.

However what i cant figure out is have they been arrested?

Mum and Dad are estranged. She said she had no feud with anyone (apart from refusing a lift to someone moments earlier)

yet the dad says he got a warning a few minutes before hand and that he had been accused of using the children as a shield (when - they were with their mother?).

Think There is more to this story than meets the eye.

But just praying for the wee ones in hospital tonight caught up in this absolute madness.

Sand

Forced labour sounds like a good plan, let them repay the country for the crime they committed and for the money that is being spent on them whilst being kept in prison.

I dont know how productive - in terms of cost/profit - forced labour is or would be. Maybe if their productivity was linked to sentence reduction, but I dont really see Anto and Bazo turning into model employees.

Sending the people who did that to prison will only teach them criminality on a larger scale, it will get them more involved, not teach them a lesson at all.

The way the prison system is now, thats true. The prison system is awash with drugs. Its claimed that its not possible to cut the flow in to prison, but thats laughable. It is quite possible, its simply that prisons prefer the inmates to be drugged up and docile rather than risking a violent backlash. How fair that is on inmates who pick up or develop and addicition to drugs in a state run facility is another issue.

As for criminals developing contacts/skills - again prisoners are only able to develop contacts amongst themselves in prison because they are allowed to do so. They have their freedoms strictly limited in a state run facility, so its only with the blessing of the state if they get to have little training and networking sessions. The prison can go up as far as solitary confinement/rotating prisoners through facilities or even banning conversation [dont speak unless spoken to] to break up networks

At the end of the day, people arent sent to prison just to be rehabilitated and turned into model citizens. The absolute worst place to send a drug addict is prison, because whatever chance they have of kicking the habit outside, theyve practically none in prison. First and foremost people are sent to jail to protect the public, to take scumbags and psychopaths off the streets.

In cases of extreme inhuman savagery - like this petrol bombing of a womans car with her children in it - then Id argue there should be open ended sentences, effectively locking them up and leaving them there till the psychopath who did it is no longer a threat to the public. If that means till he hits 75, so be it.

Anyways, I've a theory that you only find the underclass in rich countries with low taxation rates and low social investment.

For example:

Underclass in Ireland, UK, USA.

No such thing in Belgium, France, Germany, Canada.

Does that theory sound bonkers?

Ask the French, I understand they had close to an urban revolt by their non-existent underclass there last year.

Cue much smirking in rich countries with low taxation rates and low social investment.

DublinWriter

julep wrote:

and let's not forget those lovely folks in germany, belgium, austria, croatia, greece and so on.

the theory that scumbags only exist in the english speaking west is the most laughable thing i have ever heard.

like i said, just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

I'm fully aware of who the Vlaamsblok are in Belgium. My theory is about a socially excluded underclass, not extreme right-wing loonies. If you want to lump them all under the one banner then you're over-simplifying the situation and analytically doing no better than the 'hang-em-all' average Sun reader.

constitutionus

SAND i'd agree with your point about prison being for keeping the psychos off the street except the majority of people are in for less than six months and we have a disturbing habit of jailing people for not paying bills. hardly the greatest threats to the country

sad fact is beyond the waffle the government, in anyform with any parties, simple dont give a monkeys. theyre allright and so are the people who donate to em and thats all they care about. this unfortunetly leads to the situation where the love ulster riots can happen and no one in the gov or gardai can see it comming. really makes ya wonder if something really big is on the way, i was listening to a guy from moyross on the TV tonight and he was saying the last time the gardai took on these people they were bombarded with rocks and petrol bombs.

i think weve reached breaking point, the gardai are shown to be not a police force but a crisis management squad which turns up two hours after the incident and the notions of zero tollerance and being hard on crime have moved beyond the point where you can just waffle about it and need action

il gatto

I think anyone who does something so absolutely low should be punished severely. Let that be their rehabilitation. Let them learn, but from the misery of prison. To hell with re-educating and re-adjusting. Unless they have a mental age of a young child, there's no excuse for what they did. No amount of training will change that sort of mentality.
What we all need to consider when advocating a compassionate prison system is, would you like your daughters assailant/murderer to be trained as a carpenter, or would you like to see him suffer in a miserable dungeon or swing from a gibbet? Honestly.
It's a matter of having no respect for others, no fear of the law and a bizzarely acquired sense of self worth. We can compare all we like to Britain, the States and France, but in an insignificant little country like ours, we should be able to enforce the law, and come down hard on anyone who would harm others.

pucan

DublinWriter wrote:

I'm fully aware of who the Vlaamsblok are in Belgium. My theory is about a socially excluded underclass, not extreme right-wing loonies. If you want to lump them all under the one banner then you're over-simplifying the situation and analytically doing no better than the 'hang-em-all' average Sun reader.

Theres huge social underclasses in france and germany. Every major city in france has ghettos

Terry

pucan wrote:

Theres huge social underclasses in france and germany. Every major city in france has ghettos

there are huge social underclasses in every country.
some people just don't seem willing to accept that fact and the fact that other countries have scumbags too.

check this out. they have prisons in germany. although, maybe they are just for the Irish scumbags who choose to visit germany and cause trouble.
ooh. there's some in france too.
wow. here's a whole list of them. all in other countries. some people would have you believe that these prisons were built for the purpose of holding Irish diaspora, but i don't really believe that.

PinkieGirl

The evil scum who are responsible for the burning of these innocent children should be locked up in a cell and given bread and water for eternity, if not then they should be eliminated some other way. There are no excuses for what they did. It is about time we had a hard labour penal system in Ireland, the name of the game is punishment!

Originally Posted by bobmeaney
I'd rather see the money being spent on resource centre's and work programs for young kids and their parents respectively, than on some stone faced scum bag who has no intention of ever going straight.

Totally agree with you Bobmeaney, we need more community centre's in all areas of Ireland, however if there is an "element" already in situ, then no number of resource centre's are going to stop the senseless violence.

Just to let you know the following is a list of the Services and Amenities provided by Moyross Community Enterprise Centre Ltd:
Community Creche, Action Centre, Local Employment Service, Security Monitoring for local estate, Playground, Community Bus, Meeting Rooms, Multi Media Training Room, Sports Hall, Cooking Facilities, Secure Compound for overnight parking, Changing Rooms, Showers, Sports Equipment, All Weather Pitch, Enterprise Support, Sarsfield Business Centre.

What we need a tough penal system, where the criminal is punished and not rewarded for their crime.