Driving Commercial as Private

ballooba

Some unscrupulous peeps have suggested that I buy a commercial jeep and drive it as my private car.

Is this only possible if one has a legitimate business use for the vehicle?

Henry Ford III

I reckon it would be fine if you put private tax and insurance on it.

Anan1

You'd still be stuck driving a commercial jeep instead of a car, though.;)

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

ballooba wrote:

Some unscrupulous peeps have suggested that I buy a commercial jeep and drive it as my private car.

Is this only possible if one has a legitimate business use for the vehicle?

why not get a jeep with seats in the back and tax it as a commercial...best of both worlds...
or one of those maxi cabs/crew cabs types.

tbh i know a lot of people who own 4x4s some with only two seats and some with more and nobody but nobody has them taxed privately
you would want to be a bit stupid not to tax any 4x4 as a commercial.

dubstub

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

why not get a jeep with seats in the back and tax it as a commercial...best of both worlds...
or one of those maxi cabs/crew cabs types.

tbh i know a lot of people who own 4x4s some with only two seats and some with more and nobody but nobody has them taxed privately
you would want to be a bit stupid not to tax any 4x4 as a commercial.

You cannot legally tax a passenger 4x4 as a commercial vechicle.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

dubstub wrote:

You cannot legally tax a passenger 4x4 as a commercial vechicle.

ya ya, its a bit like the provisional driving alone law...never enforced

are you saying all the crew/cab 4X4s are taxed privately???

Anan1

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

are you saying all the crew/cab 4X4s are taxed privately???

No, he's saying that you cannot legally tax a passenger 4x4 as a commercial vehicle.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Anan1 wrote:

No, he's saying that you cannot legally tax a passenger 4x4 as a commercial vehicle.

sorry i didn't mean to direct that question to you it was meant for "dubstub"

but I'm sure somebody somewhere does want to listen to what you have to say... its just not me. in fact can you put me on your ignore list and i will put you on mine.

so back to you "dubstub" and sorry about yer man...i have no idea where he came from.

are all the crew(passengers)/cab 4X4s taxed privately???

dubstub

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

are all the crew(passengers)/cab 4X4s taxed privately???

Probably not.
However, even if you manage to get the Motor Tax office to accept the RF100 form for a vehicle that is not registered as a commercial vehicle, you still have the problem that the tax discs are a different colour for commercial vehicles and would be inviting any Garda to bring you up on it at a checkpoint. And they probably will.

ballooba

So what is involved in registering it as commercial?

Does it have to be owned by a business?

declanoneill

Forgive the stupid question, but how are company cars taxed then? Assuming said car has back seats.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

dubstub wrote:

Probably not.


tax discs are a different colour for commercial vehicles and would be inviting any Garda to bring you up on it at a checkpoint. And they probably will.

i can tell you definitely not...

ya you would think so wouldn't ya...and also something that is even more obvious than the colour to a guard is no NCT cert,
well this is from my own personal experience, nobody i know have ever been questioned about commercial/private tax/insurance when stopped.
and I'm not only talking about the crew/cabs, quit a few of my friends have the full passenger 4X4s and not a bother...drive on

alias no.9

dubstub wrote:

You cannot legally tax a passenger 4x4 as a commercial vechicle.

Any estate car can be taxed as a commercial, all passenger 4x4's are classified as estates. The legality of doing so when the intended purpose of the vehicle is not commercial, is a different question.

dubstub

ballooba wrote:

So what is involved in registering it as commercial?

Does it have to be owned by a business?

AFAIK, and I'm sure Squiggles will correct me, but when the jeep is converted to a commercial vehicle and the seats are ripped out, the jeep is then registered as a van. The RF100 form that you then send to the Motor Tax Office on first registration of the vehicle then has the vehicle type listed as a goods vehicle. That is the only way they will give you the commercial rate.
It doesn't need to be owned by a business. Company cars are taxed at the normal rate. It is only goods vehicles that get the commercial rate - €252 for up to a 3 tonne (I think) van.

tred

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

i can tell you definitely not...

ya you would think so wouldn't ya...and also something that is even more obvious than the colour to a guard is no NCT cert,
well this is from my own personal experience, nobody i know have ever been questioned about commercial/private tax/insurance when stopped.
and I'm not only talking about the crew/cabs, quit a few of my friends have the full passenger 4X4s and not a bother...drive on

The car will be registered in the state as a commercial or as a passenger. How can u go in with a passenger 4.4 and say its a commercial is beyond me. Unless ur bringing in the log book of a different jeep, which is fraud and entails a hefty fine and possible sentence.

dubstub

alias no.9 wrote:

Any estate car can be taxed as a commercial,

.... if they have no back seats and no back windows.

ballooba

So as I expected I will lose the back seats and windows if i tax as commercial.

But I will save circa €650 p.a. on Motor Tax.

It's tempting but will require some thought.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

alias no.9 wrote:

Any estate car can be taxed as a commercial, all passenger 4x4's are classified as estates. The legality of doing so when the intended purpose of the vehicle is not commercial, is a different question.

tred wrote:

How can u go in with a passenger 4.4 and say its a commercial is beyond me. Unless ur bringing in the log book of a different jeep, which is fraud and entails a hefty fine and possible sentence.

so who is right... i don't know, but me thinks alias no.9 is... because one of the guys i know doing this is a guard and part time farmer and i don't think he would go down the road of using a different log book and committing fraud.

dubstub

You'll also have to pay for the conversion and €50 VRT to re-register the vehicle.

ballooba

Might drive it as a passenger for a year. See how I get on and if I feel the saving is worth it I will buy a commercial.

Fey!

In 2002 there was a loophole for crewcabs which allowed them to be registered commercial and paying commercial VRT, which also allows them to be taxed commercially. That loophole has since been closed, but the vehicle registered at the time are still taxed commercially and therefore do not require an NCT cert as they get a DOE each year instead, which is required to tax it but does not get displayed on the windscreen - this is 100% accurate, as our crewcab for work is currently going through it's DOE so that we can tax it!!

IIRC, you may insure a commercial vehicle privately if you want to (not 100%, as ours has commercial insurance but allows us to carry passengers in all properly secured (5 including drivers) seats, which all have seatbelt fittings).

As mentioned earlier, some estate vehicles may be taxed commercially if they have commercial insurance, but I think you must go to some extremes to prove their usage (not 100%, but I did see that somewhere a few years ago. May have since changed).

Putting back seats back into a converted vehicle is a no-no.

tvr

How many seats to the Disco have ?

As its seems abit of a bargain in a commerical format . Can I just walk in and buy one because even with 2 seats its still 15000 saving.

Land Rover Discovery 3
TdV6 S Commercial 5Dr 39,600inc VAT @ 21%

Also could I import one for just 50 euro VRT . Is that correct? and insure it privately.

This thread just made purchasing a new car more interesting?


Also if that doesnt work . Anyone up for putting up 100 euro each . If we get 500 boardies doing that we can set up a Belfast Based Company . Get over the vat threshold etc and each buy ourselves some Disco 3 ex vat which will be even cheaper for our 500 plus irish sales force. I dont mind chippin in for the accountant each year for publishing accounts. The mods can pick up the lawyers charges???

Get a mod to sort it out maybe??

dubstub

tvr wrote:

How many seats to the Disco have ?

As its seems abit of a bargain in a commerical format . Can I just walk in and buy one because even with 2 seats its still 15000 saving.

Land Rover Discovery 3
TdV6 S Commercial 5Dr 39,600inc VAT @ 21%

Also could I import one for just 50 euro VRT . Is that correct? and insure it privately.

This thread just made purchasing a new car more interesting?


Also if that doesnt work . Anyone up for putting up 100 euro each . If we get 500 boardies doing that we can set up a Belfast Based Company . Get over the vat threshold etc and each buy ourselves some Disco 3 ex vat which will be even cheaper for our 500 plus irish sales force. I dont mind chippin in for the accountant each year for publishing accounts. The mods can pick up the lawyers charges???

Get a mod to sort it out maybe??

I can see the Revenue now... ok, so we're writing 100 checks for 6900 each for VAT reclaims from a company which has never traded but needs 100 jeeps for its Irish "sales force"...

No problems, where do I sign?!

tvr

dubstub wrote:

I can see the Revenue now... ok, so we're writing 100 checks for 6900 each for VAT reclaims from a company which has never traded but needs 100 jeeps for its Irish "sales force"...

No problems, where do I sign?!

Yeah it should be ok as its the British Tax Office . They would be so glad to be getting any business with hundreds of jeeps operating in the north . Business brings prosperity. They probably would even look twice.

Or we could do a SMART Telecom in Ireland if you want . Have a couple of hundred commercial jeeps and a small army of sales people , and lose about 25 million a year if you want and operate out of two housing estates put advertise nationally . We could set up a SMART IE S NI . That should put revenue right of the trail. Just sivin of the money back into our accounts and write it off as a massive lose?

DeirdreB

Can anyone explain if it is possible to covert a private jeep, registered in 2003, to a commercial vehicle?

We can't get insurance on our private jeep to tow a twin axle trailer and have the following choice:

- trade the private jeep in for a commercial jeep and lose about €5k;
- try to re-register the private jeep to a commercial.

I don't know if it's possible and if it is, how do you go about it?

Thanks

maidhc

I have been studying tax for a while now.

You come to learn early on that the Revenue are lots of things, but definitely not stupid.

If driving a 4x4 van is for you, then go for it. You will make a saving, but remember it is less useful for carrying people (legally) than a Ford Ka! Don't forget you will get a roasting at the toll bridges too!

Classic cars are by far the most tax advantageous way of motoring. They are taxed for BIK at their value at the date of first registration (if your employer pays you in e-types!), and don't incur CGT when sold. Add to this the fact road tax is negligible. They also have style, something which few 4x4s have.

DeirdreB

It's not my intention to avoid tax - I simply can't get insurance on my private vehicle to tow a twin-axle trailer, so I need either to buy a commercial vehicle or to convert my private vehicle to a commercial one.

bkehoe

Re the toll bridges - just get an Easypass and register as a private vehicle. Know lots of people doing this with commercial jeeps.

Wishbone Ash

Fey! wrote:

IIRC, you may insure a commercial vehicle privately if you want to (not 100%, as ours has commercial insurance but allows us to carry passengers in all properly secured (5 including drivers) seats, which all have seatbelt fittings)

A commercial vehicle can be insured privately but, in my experience, it entails being asked loads of questions, none of the big companies will do it and it costs a lot more. It also has to be taxed privately.

ballooba

I know the COO in EazyPass he says they take pictures of people doing this and they will cancel their account. You will get away with it for a while though.

bkehoe

Unless they stop people, go out and look inside their jeeps, I don't see how they could tell whether it was a commercial or passenger with most modern ones.

All the new Discoverys, for example, look like the normal passenger versions with privacy glass in the back. Other newer commefcial jeeps seem to be doing the same thing now rather than replacing the glass with a panel.

On the topic of the cameras, I was accidently using my Easypass with the wrong registration registered for months (forgot to update from the UK reg to the Irish reg when I paid the vrt)! :eek: Nothing said, only realised by accident.

stifz

DeirdreB wrote:

It's not my intention to avoid tax - I simply can't get insurance on my private vehicle to tow a twin-axle trailer, so I need either to buy a commercial vehicle or to convert my private vehicle to a commercial one.

I don't understand why you can't legally pull a twin axle trailer with a private jeep?? In terms of safety there is no difference in the vehicle towing capacity? That makes absolutely no sense at all??


A general point:
I've become aware of 'farming jeeps' being able to tax commercial but leave the seats in? Anyone know how they do this? Also i have come across jeeps in the past taxed commercial yet have rear seats?? If you need the DOE each year to tax the jeep then surely the seating wells have to be welded over (by law) so again how do you have rear seats??

Confused?

Mc-BigE

The revenues definition of a commercial vehicle is that the carrying (or flat area) space behind the front seats(back seats for cab-crew) must be larger (I think) than the passenger space, which pretty much rules out ALL 4X4 passenger vehicles /SUV's etc but not cab crews because of the pickup section.
And the nail in the coffin is that all rear seats (except cab crew) must be removed and anchor points for rear seat belts must be cut off.

If you want to drive a private vehicle as a commercial that’s your business, but I wouldn't like to try to explain to my insurance company’s inspector in a crash why my private vehicle hasn't got private road tax, and in the case of 4 year old private vehicles, a valid NCT certificate. And as per the legality of the insurance policy, I wouldn’t like to speculate.

Some insurance companies have already copped onto this so it’s only a matter of time before they all start doing it:
Have a look at the small print in www.Allianzdirect.ie website:

“Assumption Details

You and your Partner
Reside in the Republic of Ireland.
Have driving records free from accidents, claims and convictions in the last 5 years.
Have not been refused insurance by any insurer or had special terms imposed by an insurer (your previous insurer must be an EU insurer).
Have not any medical condition e.g. diabetes, heart conditions etc.
You’re Car Is registered in your name in the Republic of Ireland and you are the main driver and the car is taxed privately.

Value is less than EUR 70,000, is not more than 15 years old and is not a car vanette, kit car, sports car, convertible or gti. It is not left hand drive and it has not been modified.”

Added: There's also the matter of DOE test centre's giving DOE cert. to vehicles which are clearly private passenger vehicles, year after year.

It’s all too easy to tick the "Commercial" box in the RF100 form when the car is new and the DOE don't seem to be enforcing this in the DOE test centres or the Motor tax office and are losing a lot of revenue in the process.

knighted_1

to insure a jeep or any car for that matter commercially u must have commercial insurance-no insurance company will do this on a private car

to reclaim vat u must be vat registered -revenue send u out a legally binding questionaire to do with ur transport activities (if u havnt alreadty recieved it u will soon )i didnt fill mine out and got a visit -not worth the hassle -plus any strokes or loopholes u pull will normally nullify ur insurance -so for a saving of 650 euros a year its not worth the hassle

afaik u can pull a twin axle trailer ie horse box on a private car but u have to do a different test then upgrade ur insurance

if u think u can fool gaurds or think that the law is not enforced ask most truckers or haulage operators about the customs officers that are on most major roads specifically targeting commercial reg/taxed vehicles for the purpose of lost revenue thru illigal desiel or taxed in wrong weight class -its a revenue stream for them

The tax man

maidhc wrote:

Don't forget you will get a roasting at the toll bridges too!
.

I've yet to see a 4X4,commercial or not,being charged commercial rates.
They only pay €1.80:mad:
Even the sign they had in the booths with pictures of small vans+car/vans stating they had to pay €3.10, they never mentioned any commercial jeeps.

stifz

Sorry im going off the point slightly here. I've a 20ft twin axle trailer for a boat. I have questioned the validity of my insurance while towing and was told it's fine to tow such a thing. I'm cover for the damage to other cars no my own nor the trailer or boat. Yet the boat insurance covers the boat & trailer.

Can someone clarify why anyone has difficulty insuring a vehicle to tow a twin axle braked trailer? I've never heard of this before and worry it maybe some angle they would use should anything happens while towing the boat??

thanks

cormac_byrne

maidhc wrote:

Classic cars are by far the most tax advantageous way of motoring. They are taxed for BIK at their value at the date of first registration (if your employer pays you in e-types!), and don't incur CGT when sold. Add to this the fact road tax is negligible. They also have style, something which few 4x4s have.

What about a classic LandRover?
I have one insured with AIG through First Ireland.
The policy does NOT exclude towing.

Cars newer than March '74 in the UK are cheap as they don't qualify as classics there. Get one older than '77 (i.e. 30 years old) and pay only €50 VRT, plus €42 per year road tax. Would probably want one with upgraded engine & brakes to be doing towing.

hi5

Passanger vehicles can be taxed commercialy,but you must prove its been used only for commmercial reasons,like bringing building workers to sites ,etc,there are grey areas unlike VRT which is black and white.

Mc-BigE

knighted_1 wrote:

to insure a jeep or any car for that matter commercially u must have commercial insurance-no insurance company will do this on a private car

to reclaim vat u must be vat registered -revenue send u out a legally binding questionaire to do with ur transport activities (if u havnt alreadty recieved it u will soon )i didnt fill mine out and got a visit -not worth the hassle -plus any strokes or loopholes u pull will normally nullify ur insurance -so for a saving of 650 euros a year its not worth the hassle

afaik u can pull a twin axle trailer ie horse box on a private car but u have to do a different test then upgrade ur insurance

if u think u can fool gaurds or think that the law is not enforced ask most truckers or haulage operators about the customs officers that are on most major roads specifically targeting commercial reg/taxed vehicles for the purpose of lost revenue thru illigal desiel or taxed in wrong weight class -its a revenue stream for them

I know of a person who bought a private vehicle with back seats, paid his VRT like a normal private car, so no VAT claimed back (no nasty questionnaires to fill out) then when it came to taxing the car, he ticked the "goods" box on the RF100 form (honest mistake if caught, woops!), went to his local DOE test centre and got a DOE cert. (no questions asked, or else he knows someone in there, I don’t know). Then he applied for Private insurance on a "private" vehicle(some insurance co's don't ask the question in my earlier post) and then went to the Motor tax office with his insurance Cert, DOE cert, and they give him commercial road tax 253euro a saving of 1100 a year (if you had a 3L jeep). He's been doing this for the last 4 years; no one has questioned him in the DOE test centre, Motor Tax office, Insurance Company.

Which of the above are wrong, the Driver? The DOE? Revenue? Insurance Co?

IMO there all I the wrong for letting this happen for 4 years in a row, none of them seem to be talking to each other (except the driver!)
The DOE/Motor tax office thinks the vehicle is commercial, the VRO office thinks the vehicle is private, the Insurance co. thinks its private, and the DOE test centre seems to be ignoring the fact that the vehicle has rear seats, glass windows on the side, rear seat belts.

Blue850

cormac_byrne wrote:

What about a classic LandRover?
I have one insured with AIG through First Ireland.
The policy does NOT exclude towing.

Cars newer than March '74 in the UK are cheap as they don't qualify as classics there. Get one older than '77 (i.e. 30 years old) and pay only €50 VRT, plus €42 per year road tax. Would probably want one with upgraded engine & brakes to be doing towing.

Or if you don't mind the fuel bills one of those 30+ year old Range Rovers 'rebuilt with 1992 4 door body etc', tax and insure as vintage. I've seen one advertised recently with an Izuzu 3.1 diesel engine fitted