First Thread!

Richard W

I was playing in a freezeout earlier, and was just thinking of my exit hand. Don't quite know what to make of it. 6 people at table.

I have 4100, blinds are 200/400 so I've got just under 7 orbits left before I'm totally gone.

I'm in the small blind with 55, folded around to the button who makes it 1200. This guy has been playing fairly tight. I spent some time dwelling on it, figuring he either has a pair, or two overs so I push for my remainder. He has me covered.

The reasons I did this were, if I doubled up, I'd be at 8600, and could maybe tighten up a little, if I folded I'd be at 3900, and have to throw it in soon enough. Am I in any real danger by staying here? Also, the off chance of him folding would've been nice.

Oh, I'm aware that I've ignored the big blind here, but he has tightened up himself, and I figure it's unlikely he's got a hand worthy of calling a raise followed by a re-raise.

Any opinions on how to play this would be welcome, especially if they're followed by a reason. Just out of curiosity, what would you do with the 5's if the button just flat called? Big blind has the two of us covered.

RoundTower

I think you played it well. It depends though exactly how tight the guy is: if he wouldn't raise without a hand he will call a push with, i.e. if he would limp a lot of marginal hands, then you should fold. Or if he will fold too much on the flop you can call and shove flop. Also it helps to know what his stack is, it is great if he has something like 7000 here, this will make him more likely to make a bad fold.

NickyOD

You played it the only way it could be played. You have to push. If the button flat calls I wouldn't like it but would also push unless I knew the player ont he button very well.

cardshark202

If the button or anyone else got involved before me I would probably just fold in this spot.

Richard W

Yeah, he called and turned over AJ. There was absolutley no way he was folding in fairness. Think everyone thought I was getting loose, which was true. Thanks for the reply's.

ArmaniJeanss

NickyOD wrote:

You played it the only way it could be played. You have to push.

We have post flop position to do a Stop N Go if we're feeling a little adventurous, and your stack size is just about perfect for this move.
Though obv it works better if we're the player with the 2 high cards.


AJs (cause every thread today needs a dissenting voice !).

NickyOD

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

We have post flop position to do a Stop N Go if we're feeling a little adventurous, and your stack size is just about perfect for this move.
Though obv it works better if we're the player with the 2 high cards.


AJs (cause every thread today needs a dissenting voice !).

I think its unwise to ever try a stop and go from any position other than the BB.

Richard W

What's a stop and go?

ArmaniJeanss

Richard W wrote:

What's a stop and go?

If you flat call with your 5s, and the BB folds (which you cant guarantee and is the point Nicky makes), and you push all-in on any flop, then you can get an opponent to fold hands which he wouldnt fold if you pushed pre-flop.

To be honest your hand is a bad example really, but pretend u had the AJo and the button had the 55 and raised to 1200. You flat call instead of pushing. The flop comes K98r, u are first to act and push all-in. Can the button really call with 55 and all those horrid overcards.

So basically StopNGo is a way of avoiding pre-flop 50/50s, and if it doesnt work, "feck it, the chips were going in anyway" !!

Bandana boy

Richard W wrote:

What's a stop and go?

in the states it is a franchise of corner shops

but in this case it is assuming you are up against say ak
now against AK you are 50-50 and he is not folding pre
but if you call and push a non a or k flop he finds very hard to call hence negating his 50-50 chance of winning hand

Gholimoli

the new me thinks this is a fold.

Bandana boy

Gholimoli wrote:

the new me thinks this is a fold.

I prefer to be utg and push here :eek: :eek: :eek:

Come out come out luckydolly69 who ever you are

Norwich Fan Rob

with 55 and position on the raiser i much prefer a stop and go to a push pre.

this gives u a much better chance of winning the hand.

If villian has AJ+ or any pp, he will call your push given the stack sizes.

However, with u first to act post flop, if u call and push any flop, its then a much harder call for him, as he most often misses the flop.

Say he has 77 or the like, flop comes TQA, can he call a shove !
Say he has AJ, flop comes Q68, again, can he call.
Give him 3 cards not 5, and pick up the chance he might fold a pair slighter higher than yours into the bargain.

Just when u have a marginal hand, the stop and go is often more effective than the shove, if u dont think he will fold pre.

Ps Bandana - LD69 is not too happy with your K5 call !!!!
Im surprised he hasnt posted anything on it yet.........

ArmaniJeanss

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

Say he has AJ, flop comes Q68, again, can he call.

Rob, I dont really think the StopAndGo works well if we have the pair and opponent has the 2 high cards.
Because he calls your Stop And Go when he hits the flop, folds when he misses the flop, except that in the latter case we don't actually want him to fold when he misses - we should be thrilled if we can get the remainder of the money in the centre as a roughly 80/20 fav.

Bandana boy

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

Rob, I dont really think the StopAndGo works well if we have the pair and opponent has the 2 high cards.
Because he calls your Stop And Go when he hits the flop, folds when he misses the flop, except that in the latter case we don't actually want him to fold when he misses - we should be thrilled if we can get the remainder of the money in the centre as a roughly 80/20 fav.

In a cash game this is completely true and while we dont hate this scenario in a MTT we would rather the pot now without a showdown

who is ld69 is it el stuntman ?

Norwich Fan Rob

the s&g works particularly well with a small pair as we give the villian 3 cards to hit his overs, instead of 5.
if hes calling our push pre anyway, he will get 5, so why not give him just 3 instead.
(obv if we think he will fold to push pre, this is diff scenario).

Bandana - LD69 is a well respected boards poster, ranked in europe, who recently played the WSOP, and is renowned for his table talk, i outted him on his last ID, i better not say anymore in case i do it again !!!!

30something

We've read the villan as tight. Villan has raised to 1200 and we have 200 invested at this point with 55. We put villan on a better pair or 2 over-cards.
FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD, dammit, FOLD.

Why put your tourney life on the line here? A call pot commits us forcing the Stop & Go. An AI reraise will be called. We put him on an over pair / 2 higher cards. Thus our chances of success are minimal.

OH, and we dont know what the BB is doing.

The blinds are about to pass us and we've still enough chips to open the pot with all sorts of muck and scare people away.

FOLD dammit, fold.

Richard W

30something wrote:

We've read the villan as tight. Villan has raised to 1200 and we have 200 invested at this point with 55. We put villan on a better pair or 2 over-cards.
FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD, dammit, FOLD.

See this is why I thought it may have been a bad push. There are 6 ways of making each pair (I think, if I'm wrong this entire post is kinda embarrasing). Let's say he plays 77 or better, that's 8 hands there, and there are 6*8 = 42 of those. Then there are the high cards. He's only really calling with A10 AJ AQ AK KQ maybe. That's loose enough. With each of those hands there are 8C2 numbers of hands, so that's (8C2)*6 = (32)*6 = 192 (I think). So I'm severly beaten 21% of the time, which I think did make it a bad call. So my win rate here is .8*50 + .2*20 which is like 44%. The pot odds I was getting, well, I had to put in 3900 to win 8600 which is 45%.

If any of this math is wrong tell me. Cause if I'm thinking incorrectly about these situations I should probably know. Ehm, obviously I couldn't think of this on the spot.

30something wrote:

Why put your tourney life on the line here? A call pot commits us forcing the Stop & Go. An AI reraise will be called. We put him on an over pair / 2 higher cards. Thus our chances of success are minimal.

OH, and we dont know what the BB is doing.

The blinds are about to pass us and we've still enough chips to open the pot with all sorts of muck and scare people away.

FOLD dammit, fold.

The reason I wanted to push here was I had **** all chips left. 7 orbits left before I was gone, and it was short handed. I had to make a move really within the next orbit, maybe 2. This seemed right. Also, I've been quite loose, and I won't be getting any respect from raises.

As for the big blind, what's he calling with? He's been tight enough, and I don't think he's calling raise followed by a push with anything less that AQ, especially given that the original raiser has still to act. Although, that's just an assumption on my part.

That stop and go move seems kind of cool though. Never would've thought of it.

Edit: ****e, I just realised some of my math was in fact wrong. That should've been 28 instead of 32 up there. Bollox.

I'm not arsed at this stage, I'll think about it later.

Bandana boy

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

Ps Bandana - LD69 is not too happy with your K5 call !!!!
Im surprised he hasnt posted anything on it yet.........

in fairness with BB and on the BB I think this is a fairly standard call here
He was a little unlucky but not wildly unlucky here its about 60-40 against A8

Gholimoli

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

Bandana - LD69 is a well respected boards poster, ranked in europe, who recently played the WSOP, and is renowned for his table talk, i outted him on his last ID, i better not say anymore in case i do it again !!!!

you did it again Rob.
Hellooo Mr Masters would you like to thank Rob for not giving away your ID this time?:D

pppspecial

gohli ur a donk ball off the highest nature lmao. i told u my new handle last time i saw u.
thats so funny. yep its me i wasnt going to post anything. im not a moaner like you pal who throws handbags around when bb or a horrible play made against you.

Norwich Fan Rob

shhhh gholi

and i didnt actually see the hand as such bandana, i just heard about it (if u had less than 3bbs, then fair enough)

And to the op, calling with 55, u are usually 50/50 vs 2 overs, or 4/1 dog vs a higher pair. I prefer to open push with pretty much any hand than to call a raise with 55.
(but as stated b4, if i do play the hand, i prefer to stop and go it).

Bandana boy

Hmmm curiousier and curiouser
I am still going with El Stuntman although was not aware he was a ranked player

plus 3bb or not everyone knows K5 is a mighty hand and well worth staking your MTT on it

Gholimoli

pppspecial wrote:

im not a moaner like you pal who throws handbags around when bb or a horrible play made against you.

LMAO ...


but this was Rob's fault Dave not mine.

Norwich Fan Rob

hang on, i never actually said who it was............

DeadParrot

I for one am folding this...tight player, mid pockets, its only costing 200, you got the button next, 7 orbits is, imo, a fair bit of time to get back in.
That said AJ isnt the best call in the world....unless they were suited of course

Bandana boy

pppspecial wrote:

im not a moaner like you pal who throws handbags around when bb or a horrible play made against you.

Is the directed at me ?