Is this Lidl product illegal ?

eirman

http://www.lidl.ie/ie/home.nsf/pages/c.o.20060911.p.WirelessFMTransmitter

Ulsterman 1690

only if one doesnt have a licence for it

There are plans to legalise unlicenced use of such products in both Ireland and the UK but at the moment these are just plans

Anyway its hardly the crime of the century is it :rolleyes:

watty

Technically using it is illegal at the moment. There is a separate thread about legalising such devices, though this specific one might not be legal. It may only applie to a certian CE mark after the legislation is passed.

Newer car HiFi have a 3.5mm stereo jack socket which will work better.

Ulsterman 1690

Had a look in Lidl (Glengormley) this evening and couldnt see any although they do have a couple of 80cm satellite systems in stock

eth0_

They're legal to sell anyway.
Tower records sell them too.

Ulsterman 1690

In Ireland theyre illegal to POSESS nevermind sell/use :rolleyes:

kelle

Can anybody tell me what it is? I tried to open the webpage shown in the first thread, but it's all stuff for the house, none of which looks illegal!

watty

eth0_ wrote:

They're legal to sell anyway.
Tower records sell them too.

Lots of things are sold in shops that are technically illegal to sell

kelle wrote:

Can anybody tell me what it is? I tried to open the webpage shown in the first thread, but it's all stuff for the house, none of which looks illegal!

Any transmitter device unless it is one of two categories is illegal:
1) CE mark or (CE! with Ireland not excluded).
2) The user has an appropriate licence.

Conditions will apply, of CE marked transmitters that need no licence:
* CB allows an external aerial, but with height limitation and must no be directional. Maximum powers and permitted frequencies scheduled.
* WiFi allows an external aerial but maximum "On Air power" (eirp) limit applies. A 26dB gain MMDS dish fed at full PCMCIA power exceeds this.
* PMR446 walky talkies may not have external aerial or any modification to aerial or output power.
* Video senders only 4 TX channels on 2.4GHz (conflicts with WiFi), only one fixed remote UHF 433.085MHz channel
* Remote door locks / keyfobs

Only licenced "Wireless Experimenters" can use transmitters not on Comregs list and without a CE mark, then it must be verified to meet the tight specs and schematics etc submitted to Comreg, and only used at scheduled powers, frequencies and modulation types/bandwidth.

Any CE mark device with /!\ symbol is not universal and may be illegal.

watty

Unlike a 1W to 1kW FM Radio Transmitter (same thing much more power) you are unlikely to be raided.

Operating a Transmitter that GETS NOTICED, can make you liable to be raided without a warrant and ALL electrical equipment can be siezed.

Commnications and Customs & Excise have more power of entry and seizure in UK and Ireland than Garda/Police. No warrent or Judical review needed.

Ulsterman 1690

Operating a Transmitter that GETS NOTICED, can make you liable to be raided without a warrant

If the cops think I have guns in my house they need a warrant before they can "raid"
If the cops think I have drugs in my house they need a warrant before they can "raid"
If the cops think I have child porn in my house they need a warrant before they can "raid"
For crying out loud If the cops think I have weapons grade plutonium in my house they need a warrant before they can "raid"

Why would they be allowed raid a house transmitting pirate radio/TV "without warrent" ???

Commnications and Customs & Excise have more power of entry and seizure in UK and Ireland than Garda/Police. No warrent or Judical review needed.

OFCOM/COMREG have no more power of entry and seizure than the regular police (Indeed they almost invariably have to be accompanied by at least one police officer during a "raid". Customs & Excise would have no reason whatsoever to be there unless the transmitter had been smuggled in from outside the EU without import tax/duty and/or VAT being paid

bkehoe

The proposed legalisation of these low power fm transmitters will have some strict requirements, e.g. the maximum power (erp i assume) can be a mere 50 nanowatts - I doubt the Lidl device is that low.

But, this is only a proposed plan, and at the moment even possession of such a device is illegal. Anywhere selling a radio transmitter should be confident that the person buying such equipment is licensed to own and/or operate such equipment. I know this generally applies for higher power equipment, but the principle and the laws are still the same, it's just a question of is it worth comreg spending taxpayers money chasing down everyone with an 'itrip' or similar device?

watty

50mW = milliwatts. I think

watty

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

If the cops think I have guns in my house they need a warrant before they can "raid"
If the cops think I have drugs in my house they need a warrant before they can "raid"
If the cops think I have child porn in my house they need a warrant before they can "raid"
For crying out loud If the cops think I have weapons grade plutonium in my house they need a warrant before they can "raid"

Why would they be allowed raid a house transmitting pirate radio/TV "without warrent" ???


OFCOM/COMREG have no more power of entry and seizure than the regular police (Indeed they almost invariably have to be accompanied by at least one police officer during a "raid". Customs & Excise would have no reason whatsoever to be there unless the transmitter had been smuggled in from outside the EU without import tax/duty and/or VAT being paid

All what you say is reasonable and COMREG indeed also Ofcom have little power, the actuall police are usually dispatched. I'm assuming the situation is the same here as UK, they really don't or at least untill recently need a warrent.

I know it is over the top. But they have in UK sledged down doors without warrent and seized everything.

"Pirate" TV / Radio I don't think is viewed quite as seriously as was the case in 1930s to 1970s. Though I remember a time in late 60s early 70s when I lived in Co. Antrim that "Orange Lilly's" station and the counter view versions would not have been touched due the the roads being curiously impassible

Ulsterman 1690

I know it is over the top. But they have in UK sledged down doors without warrent and seized everything.

In places like London many stations were/are located in illegal squats on council property. In these cases presumably the warrant would have been needed if they had "the nod" form the council

Though I remember a time in late 60s early 70s when I lived in Co. Antrim that "Orange Lilly's" station and the counter view versions would not have been touched due the the roads being curiously impassible

Actually perhaps its a subject for another thread but Id like to see someone put an article together about the history of these "Clandestine" stations. (Even better if audio clips were available) With a handful of (mostly short-lived) exceptions they all seemed to have died out by the mid eighties (rather surprisingly) and there seems to be very little mention of them in print or on the net

lawhec

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Actually perhaps its a subject for another thread but Id like to see someone put an article together about the history of these "Clandestine" stations. (Even better if audio clips were available) With a handful of (mostly short-lived) exceptions they all seemed to have died out by the mid eighties (rather surprisingly) and there seems to be very little mention of them in print or on the net

This might be the best source for them (minus audio clips)

http://www.clandestineradio.com/intel/intelinact.php?id=137

Antenna

My local Lidl had none of them when I looked around Monday evening.
Found the section for them with the price notice still overhead but was empty
Either they sold out or maybe they had been told to withdraw them from sale ?

did anyone actually buy one?

Ulsterman 1690

Thanks NC !

Either they sold out or maybe they had been told to withdraw them from sale ?

I suspect the latter

bkehoe

watty wrote:

50mW = milliwatts. I think

Read this watty http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/PR050906.pdf

You will see it's 50 nanowatts.

Ulsterman 1690

The 50nW power limit is ridiculously low. Many electrical devices not even designed to transmit radiate far more than this.

50nW may under favorable conditions be (barely) sufficent to carry audio a couple of metres from a mp3 player to an adjacent portable radio but wont have a hope of carrying audio from a satellite reciever or computer to adjacent rooms in a house

Most portable FM radios radiate more power from their local oscillator circuits (often with harmonics as well)

I suspect that the CEPT/ERO are hoping to kill off the market for these devices in the same way as the UK authorities killed off CB in 1981

Does anyone know what the FCC "Part 15" power limit is. I know its officially

A field strength 250 µV/meter at a distance of 3 meters.

But ROUGHLY what does that amount to in microwatts/milliwatts

watty

I'm not sure if that is part 15 INTENTIONAL transmission or UNINTENDED interference, or which band that is. The the part 15 has lots of different limits.


50mW is enough to get reception on the car radio, which is the alleged market, not WiFi / Video sender style 30m range. it would be about 10m range indoors but up to 200m clear LOS.

The local osc radiation would be much less than 1mW on poor sets. On "good" sets in microwatt range.

See
http://www.lwca.org/sitepage/part15/whatisit.htm

Note at lower frequencies, serious power is needed to get 1W on an aerial. Between 1kW and 2kW transmitter power is needed for 1W ERP on the air at 137kHz.

At VHF/UHF it is easy to get ERP = TX power and of course a yagi on a transmitter could give 10 times ERP as the physical TX power.


50mW seems generous, WiFi and Video Senders are about 100mW. The 3km range PMR446 is 500mW. Power needed for DOULBLE the range is FOUR times. Ten times power is only slightly more than 3 times the range, put more potential for very local interference. A typical "toy" CE marked 49MHz walkie talky is 20mW and about 20m range, not HiFi

The real UK power limit for CB is similar to most Eu and USA power limits (4W to 5W depending on country). The Italians don't seem to enforce as well.

ANY linear amp that could be used for CB is illegal in USA, they can't buy Toko or other HF linear for an FT817 low power (5W) Amatuer radio, like UK or Irish person

Ulsterman 1690

The local osc radiation would be much less than 1mW on poor sets. On "good" sets in microwatt range.

So even a "good set" would radiate more RF than a fifty nanowatt transmitter

And I cant see 50nW ever giving 200m range unless multielement yagis are being used

watty

nW must be a mistake. I'm sure it's mW

SPDUB

Antenna wrote:

My local Lidl had none of them when I looked around Monday evening.
Found the section for them with the price notice still overhead but was empty
Either they sold out or maybe they had been told to withdraw them from sale ?

did anyone actually buy one?

I was told that they sold out quickly.There was none left in the Lidls near me by 1pm

I suspect that the CEPT/ERO are hoping to kill off the market for these devices in the same way as the UK authorities killed off CB in 1981

Wouldn't people just buy them off Ebay as they are currently doing if they impose a very low limit

bkehoe

While chatting to one of the BCI engineers last week, we were talking about these things, and he told me the power limit being proposed was nano watts (I didn't know the proposed power before this chat), and the Comreg documentation backs up the nano watts figure. I couldn't see them allowing 50mW - this would give potential for lots of interference related problems.

Antenna

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

In Ireland theyre illegal to POSESS nevermind sell/use :rolleyes:

There have been cases of equipment that (I assume) is legal to buy/possess causing severe interference due to improper use/installation.

There was for example a case of severe interference to RTE TV in Kinsale sometime in the early 1990s all caused by improper use of a VHF-UHF TV up converter.

The people causing the interference had an "English" (UHF only) TV.
No problem you might say for that area as RTE TV is on UHF from a transposer for that town. However they had MMDS, and the Jerrold Cable/MMDS unscramblers in use then output on VHF Band 1. So these people used a VHF->UHF upconverter to use the MMDS box with the "English TV". The output of the upconverter overlapped with one of the RTE Kinsale UHF channels (in Group A) - and guess what - rather than using a switching arrangement they had joined up the VHF-UHF upconverter output with the coax cable from their UHF aerial to feed their TV. So their UHF aerial was also radiating output of the upconverter - So anytime their MMDS decoder was powered up it was causing noticeable patterning on one of the RTE channels in a large section of the town, severe in nearby houses.

Prior to the interference being tracked down there were newspaper reports in the then Cork Examiner about the interference. A local town councillor (who was involved with South Coast) said that suspicion for the interference had to lie with the MMDS system which had recently been introduced to the town; their (UHF deflector) system couldn't possibly be to blame as it was (at the time) forced off air in the area. A spokesman for the MMDS operator (Cork Multi Ch) told the newspaper that MMDS couldn't be the cause of the interference due to the huge difference in frequency of their system to RTE (though it turned out MMDS was very indirectly the cause:)

Ulsterman 1690

There have been cases of equipment that (I assume) is legal to buy/possess causing severe interference due to improper use/installation.

And lets not forget the shedloads of equipment in the average home that is perfectly legal to possess AND operate despite emitting high levels of RF and causing severe interference to neighbours radio or TV reception not so much due to improper use/installation but due to improper design

Im talking about flourecent lamps, domestic appliances, anything with a motor, microprocessor and/or thermostat, telecommunications equipment and even TV sets (Try listening to long wave radio in most suburban areas of an evening. The screeching noise from TV timebases gurantees you wont listen long).

There are regulations governing this sort of thing but in Europe they are hopelessly lax and in any case are never enforced. In most countries getting the authorities to investigate such interference (or even understand what one is talking about) is a pointless exercise.

And yet the number of people who will experience interference to their TV/radio reception from such sources at some point is hundreds of times greater than the number who will ever exterience interference from a milliwatt transmitter or even a pirate radio station :mad:

Nevyn

Didn't Comreg come out and make these things legal ?
I am sure that I read a pdf with them making them legal due to pressure for the isounds for the ipod.

lawhec

And if you want to talk about interference sources, don't forget that in Britain several DTT set top boxes have sent out signals to alert coastguard rescue. Best one of the lot was a STB in Portsmouth sending out a signal that was received in Scotland on 121.5MHz (a standard coastguard distress frequency I believe) which couldn't be resolved, and was eventually tracked down by Ofcom using direction finding equiptment. Now if it wasn't so serious, I would say that someones STB in their living room radiating a signal in the VHF band that is picked up several hundred miles north can only be described as impressive and that RTÉ, NGI and Arquvia could investigate how they could do away with masts in future!

Aside from that, I did experiment once with a 50mW FM VHF Band II transmitter, and using the right setup into a tuned dipole antenna, mono coverage is achievable up to around 800 - 1200 metres on an average radio and up to 2km on a good car radio! :eek: Definitely not the type of thing to use for something like an iPod in the care without a big chance of in-band interference.

Ulsterman 1690

121.5 is actually the international aircraft distress frequency.

It is the 9th harmonic of 13.5 MHz which is a common sampling rate in digital TV and of course digital signals tend to squarewave and thus have a lot of odd harmonics

Aside from that, I did experiment once with a 50mW FM VHF Band II transmitter, and using the right setup into a tuned dipole antenna

I dont think theres too many micro transmitters on the market using half wave dipoles though

Kinda bulky dontcha know