Forced to work beyond scheduled hours

Filan

I work in retail and was recently threatened with dismissal if I left at my rostered finishing time of 9p.m. . Regularily workers are forced to work beyond their scheduled finishing time without any notice....it is just assumed that they will and most are either timid or afraid of losing their jobs. I made enquiries with citizens information and also browsed Irish employment law in relation to 'bullying', but bullying is only covered loosely under 'health and safety' and must occur more than once, apparently my case would be 'weak,. However I remain interested in pursuing and possibly exposing this malpractice. Have any readers any suggestions as to potential action? Thanks for all of your time, Alan

Bam Bam

Are you getting all your breaks during the day?
Do you have 11Hrs off between work periods?
Are you paid overtime?
Are you in a union?

Wishbone Ash

Generally, an employer cannot force an employee to work more than 48 hours per week (or an average of 48 hours in some occupations).

Your employer would also be obliged to provide you with further rest periods if applicable.

Your post does not state whether your employer compensates by reducing the length of other shifts. Compulsary overtime beyond 48 hours is quite rare and limited to a very few areas.

Check your Contract (if applicable) or your Terms and Conditions of employment. Your employer is obliged to provide you with a copy of your T & C of employment if you are there more than 2 months.

Have a look here for more information (Organisation of Working Time Act 1997):

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA20Y1997.html

Filan

Thanks for your reply.

The firm, a large well known multinational 'do not deal with unions'...attempts were made to introduce one just prior to my employment, but for reasons which I am unfamiliar with the move was scuttered. The premises has no Human Resources Manager, well it has just one who covers the whole of Ireland's approximately 12 Stores...and she visits ours on an approximately monthly basis.

No overtime rates are not paid, well I rarely work a 5 day week as I am a part-time student...overtime rates are only eligible forthose who work over 39 hours in that week and even then I'm not sure...All I can say is that none of my co-workers in these marathon shifts ever mentioned that they were being paid any over-time rate, nor did managment.

Over a 9 hour workday, typically 12-9 I receive one and a half hours break of which 15 minutes is paid. And as i said usually workers are expected, without consultation, to work beyond 9pm if need be and this happens most nights, despite being scheduled only to work until 9. I had important personal matters that needed my attention the night of my threatened dismissal, and I assume others may have had or could do in the future also.

11 hour space between shifts? In my case yes....but on occasion for others isn't always the case.

Wishbone Ash

Filan wrote:

'do not deal with unions'

Employers are not obliged to recognise any Trade Union.

No overtime rates are not paid, well I rarely work a 5 day week as I am a part-time student...overtime rates are only eligible forthose who work over 39 hours in that week and even then I'm not sure...All I can say is that none of my co-workers in these marathon shifts ever mentioned that they were being paid any over-time rate

An employer is only obliged to pay a 'reasonable' rate for overtime. Unfortunately, some employers pay the flat ordinary rate and this is perfectly legal AFAIK (possibly an exception for Bank Holidays?)

Over a 9 hour workday, typically 12-9 I receive one and a half hours break of which 15 minutes is paid.

That's perfectly legal.

workers are expected, without consultation, to work beyond 9pm if need be and this happens most nights, despite being scheduled only to work until 9.

I would imagine that they have allowed for this in their Contracts/Terms and Conditions.

I had important personal matters that needed my attention the night of my threatened dismissal, and I assume others may have had or could do in the future also.

If you have been employed there for less than 365 days, then they can legally dismiss you. (There are several exceptions to this but they do not apply in your case). I would seek employment elsewhere if I was you.

PS How much longer, per shift, do they normally expect you to work?

Filan

If forcing workers to work beyond their scheduled hours is legal, and I am not doubting your wisdom then that is sad...as workers could and usually do have good reason not to work beyond a certain point. We all have commitments outside of work and people who depend on us. Surely this could be interpreted as a form of bullying?.

The reverse is also true of course, sometimes, especially after the January Sales when there is less work available than afforded in our timetable, we have also been let go early without pay. A few weeks ago my timetable was also changed from 3 full days to 5 half days without consultation...again we all have commitments. Surely an abuse.

How late are we required to work ? Usually an hour extra...with exceptions...but just one hour could be a huge inconvenience to some individuals, especially those without transport...and it was on this occasion for me.

A previous manager used to belittle my choice of pasta for lunch (don't want to appear sensitive, I'm not, just stating the full story) and yes I am employed 17 months.

Whether legal or not this practice is certainly immoral...and shows how poorly protected some irish workers are.

Red Alert

I worked in retail myself and can confirm this practice took place too, seems to be a common feature of most larger shops

Wishbone Ash

Filan wrote:

We all have commitments outside of work and people who depend on us. Surely this could be interpreted as a form of bullying?

It could be interpreted as bullying if a single employee was being forced to work longer but I doubt it if it applies to a group of staff.

The reverse is also true of course, sometimes, especially after the January Sales when there is less work available than afforded in our timetable, we have also been let go early without pay. A few weeks ago my timetable was also changed from 3 full days to 5 half days without consultation...again we all have commitments. Surely an abuse.

Again Alan, this is probably allowed for in your Contract/Terms and Conditions of Employment. I have never worked in the retail sector but I would think that they would be aware of seasonal market conditions and make allowances for this.

Usually an hour extra...with exceptions...but just one hour could be a huge inconvenience to some individuals, especially those without transport...and it was on this occasion for me.

I agree that it is inconvienent for you and therefore it is probably not a suitable employment. In some occupations, an employee is not allowed to leave until their 'relief' arrives. If the other employee does not turn up, they must continue to work until a replacement is found. This could take several hours.

A previous manager used to belittle my choice of pasta for lunch (don't want to appear sensitive,

That could be construed as bullying depending on the circumstances.

shows how poorly protected some irish workers are.

Agree.

[Jackass]

Hmm, and people wonder why Irish people are generally not employed in the retail industry...some would say they're too lazy or not interested in that type of work, not true, back in the day students, school leavers and gap year people used to run these places...

Unfortunatly it's because nationals are a lot harder to exploit...not working to maintain a visa, rent, education and familly expenses in most cases...unlike foreign nationals...and they get there moneys worth...absolute slave drivers...

I remember working in a newsagent with the same scenario and they had delivery unloading, stock taking, stacking...a suprisingly large amount of tough physical work (and I'd be a fit enough guy)...but at least I got a few hours on the till...two chinese lads who worked there had it a lot harder and worked much longer hours, i felt they were being absolutely exploited!

I only lasted a few months and a few years on, I have a good, office based, career, but to this day that was the hardest job I worked, as physical jobs usually are, and unfortunatly don't pay nearly aswell as the work should be.

Couldn't agree more that there is a lot of room for explotation in the service industry and it's an employers market, so long will it continue...that's life unfortunatly, try to get out of that area if/when you can.

seamus

Contract, contract, contract.

Read your contract. If it requires you to stay after hours, then you must. If it allows them to let you go early without pay, then you must go.

gerrycollins

Filan wrote:

How late are we required to work ? Usually an hour extra...with exceptions...but just one hour could be a huge inconvenience to some individuals, especially those without transport...and it was on this occasion for me.

i work in retail (not the same place) and this extra hour is in your contract just read it, its not common practise where i work but it is there for a reason not for the fun of it, but one place i used to work in could only do it once a week you seem to have got the short end of the stick

but you should be paid overtime rates for this hour if you exceed 8 hours worked (not shift period)

with regard to you timetable, how long before the week is it posted up for you to see?

normal standard is one weeks notice again this forms part of most contracts that it will be on view for one week before that week commences,its not an abuse if its in your contract

all of what you say except the manager and your choice of pasta is perfectly legal, if your opnion is that it is immoral why stay working there? or put up with it

Cy Kotic

Filan wrote:

A previous manager used to belittle my choice of pasta for lunch (don't want to appear sensitive, I'm not, just stating the full story) and yes I am employed 17 months. .

This is why he's a manager. It takes certain characteristics to be able to exploit your fellow workers successfully. Intelligence and sensitivity are not a requirement, in fact they are detrimental.

Filan wrote:

Whether legal or not this practice is certainly immoral...and shows how poorly protected some irish workers are.

They will have themselves covered legally. Making profit from the sweat of exploited workers is not something they would consider as immoral. They would see you as being an ungrateful troublemaker for even mentioning it.

smemon

i'll be honest here.

you're a student. you're part-time.

i'm the same and i wouldnt dream of nit picking on silly little things like this. I'd often be asked to stay on for a few hours (by asked, i mean in a 'stay on another few hours, good man' kind of way).

if i've something on, i'll stand firm and demand to go at my scheduled time. if i want a day off, i'll book it off well in advance. no problems, no hassle. i've got absolutely no attatchments to the place, don't talk to people unless i have to and go in every day prepared to quit if provoked. But i give it 100% every day.

it's a real no-nonsense, strictly business deal. im there to do a job, and at the end of the day i'm getting paid decent money to do it. these guys put the bread on the table and for the sake of a few extra unscheduled hours, i'd keep my mouth shut and get on with it.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

seamus wrote:

Contract, contract, contract.

Read your contract. If it requires you to stay after hours, then you must. If it allows them to let you go early without pay, then you must go.

this is important - your contract probably allows for some variation in the hours worked. (your contract can even legally state that you may have to work more than 48 hours per week - provided you only work an average of 48 hours per week over the full year).

Please feel free to tell us what the company's name is ...

Filan

I thank you all for your replies and I have learned a lot. Boards really serves a great purpose.

A few queries remain though, such as why is oppressing a single worker alone considered bullying whereas it isn't when plurals are involved? This appears implied in a response, again I'm not arguing, just curious as to whether there is a legal distinction?. My contract includes references to 'co-operation' and 'teamwork' but not directly to being obliged to work beyond our schedule.

There is a minimum number of hours, 20 in my case which I am obliged to work and which must be available for me to work.


lso there is a distinct difference between working 'a few extra hours' when one genuinely is in a position to do so and when one has an urgent requirement to be elsewhere. Therefore it is not always possible to as smemon say "keep my mouth shut and get on with it." Certainly having to be somewhere else when a family member depended on me to be there was not " a silly little thing" In fact I am not alone, a great many workers complain amongst themselves at such mistreatment but crucially they don't take it further. Those who do generally quit within a short period. In fact the staff turnover, managment included has been enormous. Everyone has commitments..and it is the role of a manger to accomodate those once hired and only a very poor communicator would resort to dismissal over such a need. Perhaps that is why turnover is so high.

It appears to me that such malpractice is rife within large sectors of Irish employment....The time has probably come to move on...but I feel strongly on this mistreatment of both myself and my colleagues...feel it is very wrong...Dunnes Stores, a unionised firm went on strike over similar happenings...

Thanks again to you all, Alan

Slutmonkey57b

Read Fast Food nation and you'll see why this employment practice exists.
Regardless of your contract's support for "reasonable extra hours", if you were asked at short notice and could not do it due to previous commitments, your employer can fire you, but it would count as unfair dismissal in the Labour Court (dependant on the sequence of events, timing of the request, previous warnings etc). Employers like this depend on employing the sort of people who won't bother challenging them in court about it, and will spend huge money making it difficult in order to dissuade others. It's bullying culture institutionalised.

Saruman

same here! When i worked at super valu when i was younger i had to work after my shift officially ended to "face off" and that sort of thing... no one got paid for it let alone overtime. I assumed it was just the way things are done.. i was 17!

TempestSabre

No one minds doing a bit extra to help out. If you're not been taken for a mug. Unfortunately thats exactly what it is most of the time.

Filan

Incidentaly there is also a questionable regulation on facial hair....one is not allowed to grow facial hair during employment. One may however be employed in possession of a pre-existing beard prior to employment. Or one may grow a beard while on holidays...i.e. it would grow while one was not at work....and then resume work with a full beard. Thus stubble is forbidden....and a number of workers have been reprimanded for sporting stubble, regardless of how tidy or stylish. Is this legal?

layke

I know where you work, I think. Does this Multinational start with a D?

Filan

No,genuinely,but if it rings bells it shows how widespread these malpractices are

Wishbone Ash

Filan wrote:

why is oppressing a single worker alone considered bullying whereas it isn't when plurals are involved?

Workplace bullying is defined as repeated inappropriate behaviour, direct or indirect, whether verbal, physical or otherwise, conducted by one or more persons against another or others, at the place of work and /or in the course of employment, which could reasonable be regarded as undermining the individual's right to dignity at work.

Under no stretch of the imagination, could a request to work an hour or two extra, in a commercial, profit based company, be deemed to be 'bullying' or 'oppressing'.

ls there is a distinct difference between working 'a few extra hours' when one genuinely is in a position to do so and when one has an urgent requirement to be elsewhere. Therefore it is not always possible to as smemon say "keep my mouth shut and get on with it." Certainly having to be somewhere else when a family member depended on me to be there was not " a silly little thing"

If you were a train driver and were delayed by circumstances beyond your control, your shift would be finished later than planned regardless of what domestic problems you may have. If you worked on a car ferry and the return crossing was delayed, you would just have to wait in another country overnight. Your wife could be on her way to hospital to have a baby but there is nothing you can do! Not all jobs are predictable. Welcome to the real world.

In fact the staff turnover, managment included has been enormous. Everyone has commitments..and it is the role of a manger to accomodate those once hired and only a very poor communicator would resort to dismissal over such a need. Perhaps that is why turnover is so high.

This suits management in many areas like retail as short term workers are entitled to fewer rights, are less likely to complain, are cheaper and are less likely to be a member of a Trade Union.

It appears to me that such malpractice is rife within large sectors of Irish employmentThe time has probably come to move on...but I feel strongly on this mistreatment of both myself and my colleagues

Like it or not it is neither 'malpractise' nor 'mistreatment'.

Perhaps the retail sector is not for you Alan. I wouldn't work in retail because of the conditions but I don't accept that they are illegal etc. Good luck.

TempestSabre

My own experience is that extended works hours are rarely genuinely needed. Its a crutch when you haven't planned things properly, or when you want to milk more out of your staff for less wages. They do it because they can. The only course of action is to better yourself and get a better job, where that kinda mis-managment isn't rife.

I've been quite happy to quit jobs when I became aware that regular extra hours, lets call it "working for free" was a ordinary occurance rather an extraordinary one. Thats not to say I don't mind putting in extra effort if its required. But I won't be bullied into them, and if its done in an underhand way, then I'd have no trust in the managment. Especially if this working for free isn't mentioned in the contract, or interview.

Some jobs require extra hours at short notice, that just part of the job. That should be explained before you start not after, and the recompense should be worth it. That doesn't mean extra money, just that the overall rewards of the job are worth putting the extra effort. Sometimes that mean time off in lieu, extra money, or simply that you gain extra experience or skills.

But don't be taken for a mug, and don't leave one job before you have another, unless you hate it of course.

Filan

Thanks, it is worth adding that prior to my interview in April 2005, I specificaly stated in writing that I could not work beyond 9pm on a thursday night...and yet they employed me...a different managment team now of course.

I was actually called for interview for trainee managment with a different firm, but from what I have seen, I would become someone who I wouldn't like. Academia is probably the line I will follow.Meaning and the chance to make a difference to the lives of others.

Wishbone Ash

TempestSabre wrote:

Especially if this working for free isn't mentioned in the contract, or interview.

I'm open to correction but I don't think Filan said he wasn't getting paid for the extra hours.

Filan wrote:

I specificaly stated in writing that I could not work beyond 9pm on a thursday night

Pub?

TempestSabre

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I'm open to correction but I don't think Filan said he wasn't getting paid for the extra hours.
Pub?

The point is not really about money is it? Its about imposing new conditions that the employee is not happy with.

smemon

again i'm amazed at the attitude of many towards this.

20 years ago, hell, 10 years ago, this would be laughed at. The fact you're insulted by a manager questioning your choice of food is ridiculous. The guy was probably joking or trying to start a conversation. This is exactly the reason why the Irish are 2nd place to foreigners who'll just get on with it with no fuss.

at the end of the day, you're lucky to have a job. Obviously, some sort of respect is expected - management should look after you provided you do the job for them.

But to be looking into the nitty gritty on contracts and seeking advice on the legality of this is all a bit ott imo, especially as it's only part-time and probably a quick fix for a couple of years.

TempestSabre

Sorry its that lax attitude that the Irish are famous for. Theres no excuse for being unprofessional. No matter where you are from.

Crash

Filan wrote:

Incidentaly there is also a questionable regulation on facial hair....one is not allowed to grow facial hair during employment. One may however be employed in possession of a pre-existing beard prior to employment. Or one may grow a beard while on holidays...i.e. it would grow while one was not at work....and then resume work with a full beard. Thus stubble is forbidden....and a number of workers have been reprimanded for sporting stubble, regardless of how tidy or stylish. Is this legal?

I'm not sure about the legality of this, but I do understand the reasoning. as someone who at the moment sports a beard, I know that when you're growing one, you do look a HELL of a lot scruffier. its fair enough, to me along the lines of no jewelry cept for watch and wedding ring and that sorta thing.

gerrycollins

Filan wrote:

Incidentaly there is also a questionable regulation on facial hair....one is not allowed to grow facial hair during employment. One may however be employed in possession of a pre-existing beard prior to employment. Or one may grow a beard while on holidays...i.e. it would grow while one was not at work....and then resume work with a full beard. Thus stubble is forbidden....and a number of workers have been reprimanded for sporting stubble, regardless of how tidy or stylish. Is this legal?

again i refer you to your contract

most will insist on neat dress and personal hygiene,of course this is a dodgy area but its up to the management what they deem appropiate, more to the point if you come in new with a beard its assumed you have had it for a while and have taken car of it

in general and like most of the other posts your clutching at straws and TBH why dont you quit if you find the whole place a bit on the immoral and wrong side of the law

employment law today is stronger and better than ever before and it supports the employee before the employer but there are things in your contract that are legally binding no matter what your opnion on the morality is and to make matters worse you signed the bloody thing!!!!