change of career... web design

Flat

Howdie,

maybe someone can help me with this...

29 and working in marketing but hate the whole area... trying to figure out a career change but have ruled out almost everything, the only half viable thing I can think of it comp engineering or really just web design

... basically I want a high(ish) end trade like law, programming etc (ruled out plumber etc) something hands on with good earnings potential

So I am thinking of web design... so can anyone help me in terms of what languages I would need (html, fireworks etc), what courses I could take, how quickly I could be earning (taking into account training) and what I could expect to earn (salary wise) starting off...

I figure the internet is going to be around for a while and still has a lot of room for potential in terms of development as an industry, and as such guess there is still a lot of demand for web designers....

Any other suggestions for career areas would be welcome, thought about food/drink service industry and carpentry, but couldnt see it working out for me at this stage in my life

these post were of particular interest to me as these guys seem to be in a similar boat

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054986921
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054985551

TempestSabre

IMO theres lots of people doing web design/development and only those people with a talent for it, and/or a good business head make it work. Theres a lot of average joes doing it and as far as I can see its a sweat shop job at that level.

Flat - I think you'd be better putting more effort in working out what you really want to do rather then jumping to something else just because its different. I think once the novelty wears off you'll be bored it and want to change again. Theres a book, what colour is your parachute you should check out.

GoneShootin

From my experience programming and web design TempestSabre pointed or not "high end" professions. They are more dime a dozen professions.

Are you picking web-design/programming because you perceive it to be a good idea, or because you actually have a real interest in it.

Ideally you should use your experience in marketing and build a different career on it. If you can find a profession that would make your marketing experience more employable, yet removed from your current activities, then you would have the best possible mix.

Law is a massive area. Have you looked at something in law that could pull on your marketing experience?

Flat

My mum gave me 'what colour is your parachute' when I was about 18, still on my bookshelf and I have never opened it... I must thumb it a bit, but I doubt a book can help you when you have fairly complex criteria for the kind of job you want

I am equally sceptical of career counsellers, I went to fas, explained my situation, the guy shook my hand and wished me luck, which I though was fairly funny

I take the point there are probably millions of web designers, but are you guys saying there is no growth in the industry. Anyway if these guys are crap at what they do, it shouldnt be that hard to make a name for yourself. Web design would also be useful if you ever wanted to get into an internet start-up saving yourself a lot of development costs.

I have ruled out law on the basis I would have to study for at least another 4 years, before even starting to pull a salary

... but thanks for the feedback

>>> what is the average starting salary for a web designer
>>> what languages are useful apart from html...

BTW anyone done the fas online courses for web design... any feedback on them...

cheers folks

wheres me jumpa

FLAT, first off it seems to me that you are jumping into the web design world simply because you think you can make money. You think that guys in the industry are doing a half ass job and that you can come in and blow them away. If guys in the industry are struggling, chances are you will struggle.

If youre still interested you need to ask yourself are you a designer or a developer. Designers are the creative influence, developers are the programmers. You can be both but generally you will be stronger in one area.

Have you any experience in this area? You are asking about courses as if you think you do the course and thats it you can start charging a fortune. Most web designers/developers are self thought. More important thatn your qualifications is your portfolio. Without a portfolio of good work you will struggle to find new jobs.

Therefore if you are interested in getting into this industry, I recommend finding a development position at some company. The minimum you will need for this position is proven ability in html, css, php, asp, mysql. Thats just the tip of the iceberg.

TempestSabre

Its hard to help someone who isn't listening. I assume the guy in FAS realised this, and is a busy person and knew you need to get your head together not do a FAS course. Also as you are in employment, and not in a marginal group you'll be at the bottom of a very long queue for a FAS course. You're not likely to wait 6 months to a year to get on a FAS Course.

What colour is your parachute isn't just about finding a job, its also about helping you to learn about yourself, assessing your own interests, your strengths, values and abilities, then applying that to your career change, life objectives etc But if you can't be arsed reading it, then that says a lot about how serious you are changing your career.

Web design/development is a hard road, and you'll need talent (of design & business) and drive (not just technical skills) to make a go of it. I'm not getting those vibes from you. Nearly everyone has IT skills including web skills these days, it won't put you ahead of anyone else. In fact most other people will have IT diplomas, degrees, and a few professional certs, and perhaps a year or two hard gained work experience.

TBH I think you have a serious case of faraway hills are greener, and doing a quite a bit of dreaming, instead of getting down to the nitty gritty of the market place. GoneShootin gave you some practical advice.

If you are picking a job based on salary alone, then I suggest you look at the CPL salary surveys, they will give you an idea, even its a misleading, since they give no indication of how long it take people to get their roles, skills and experience level. Theres also some exceptional people in every field who earn well above their peers and this distorts the surveys.

SouperComputer

Have you considered a life coach? Ive used one to great effect. Its a bit like councelling but much more practical.

Bascially they look at your past jobs, your hobbies and what apsects of them you enjoy doing. That way you can focus on a career/line of work that you enjoy and are matched to. They can help you with your career search and CV too. I found the advice of one life coach more beneficial than serveral HR managers TBH!

PM me if you would like more details.

chump

I assume if you've such an interest in web design you've created a few sites in your spare time?

Givvus a gander!

The Insider

Started off in the IT business as a web designer .dot com crash came and company went bust found it very hard to get work after, toyed with the idea of going out on my own but didn't really have the drive to do so, went down the support/sys admin route.

Loved doing the web design work but a couple of pointers. Jobs with companies tend to be few and far between if one does come up you will find it extremely hard to get as you have no experience and no portfolio. The other option is to go out on your own as its already being said it takes a lot of drive and business sense. One advantage you would have is your marketing back ground as it would help sell yourself to prospective clients.

To be honest I don't think it would be a good move as there are a lot of good designers with the experience and the portfolio in the market place already but IMO there is not a huge amount of work. If you want to get into the IT side of things I would recommend going down the programming route but I find it hard to fathom a marketing guy converting to a programmer but you never know!!

Flat

some good advise there.. thank you

I dont have a portfolio... and hadnt made the distinction between creative web design and programming

thanks to all for comments... they actually have been very helpful

few points on some of the more harsher contributors...

a guidance counsellor could never give you the practical advice that I got above with little or no exposure to a specific industry

what colour is my parachute and similar books are basically for people who badly need direction, have poor decision skills or are starting of on a career, it has diminishing positive qualities for someone such as myself who has a slightly more complex requirement for guidance

Well the upshot is I registered for fas ecollege and I am going to start on HTML and see where it takes me, if I ever go into an internet start up, it might be helpful

TempestSabre

Flat wrote:

...a guidance counsellor could never give you the practical advice that I got above with little or no exposure to a specific industry...

A good one could. But then I've never meet one. A guidance counsellor should have exposure from all people they deal with.

Flat wrote:

what colour is my parachute and similar books are basically for people who badly need direction, have poor decision skills or are starting of on a career, it has diminishing positive qualities for someone such as myself who has a slightly more complex requirement for guidance

We'll agree to disagree. But then I've read it and you haven't.

Flat wrote:

Well the upshot is I registered for fas ecollege and I am going to start on HTML and see where it takes me, if I ever go into an internet start up, it might be helpful

Having seen those course's you'd be better with a book, or the vast number of free HTML tutorials all over the web.

I don't think you've got any harsh advice, just realistic. If I was you I'd do a Graphic/Web design diploma at night. That would be hard and take time, and theres no guarantee you'd be good at it. But it would perfect training for the long hours and time it takes to get anywhere in that field.

simba

Hi -

There are many useful sites for learning the basic web-design skills.
HTML is just the tip of the ice-berg, and is very simple to learn.
In college we were told to just learn it off this website.
www.w3schools.com/html/default.asp

It will literally take you 30 mins to an hour to learn. It is not worth spending money on this course.

Then build up on your skills by learning javascript and sql from this same website.
www.w3schools.com

It honestly is very simple. Then build up a portfolio of a few sample websites.
In my opinion it is not worth venturing into web-design as a career.
There are very few jobs and you would need to be exceptionally good to make your mark.

Most people in my class started on around 22-25k with a B.Sc. Degree.
Its very low. After 3 years its would be around 35k.

Here is an example of the criteria for a junior web-developer job being offered by Pigsback.
http://www.pigsback.com/offers/494331002/default.asp
The jobs dont come around too often though.
Hope this helps a bit.

TempestSabre

When the dot com boom happens he'll be laughing though.

Flat

Simba... nice one fella exactly the kind of information I was looking for, I basically dont want to sink 2-8k in college fee's in courses as I just dont have the cash paying of a mortgage

in terms of getting the work, I was looking at mates of mine who were building very basic web pages for friends and acquintances and making some nice wedge, with no real portfolio of work to boot

Tempest, there is a nice sarcastic edge lurking under everything you have said, dont know what field you are in, but try and avoid dealing with people, its not a talent you have. Stick to the books.

Flat

25k aint to be sniffed at either... enough to pay for booze, fags and rent with a ski holiday thrown in

joe_chicken

My opinion:

The problem with web design is that if someone has some pre-made templates and nice images they can make a site in 5 minutes.

These templates can be changed to fit any kind of webpage description

This means a small handfull of people can supply web design to a large customer base, with little cost.

This coupled with the fact that programming in HTML and the likes can be as easy as opening Notepad, so every Tom, Dick and Harry think they're a web designer, leaves slim pickings for most people

Unless you want to create actual webpage content (like images and the likes) I think it would be a wrong move to go into web design.

If you're really looking to get into IT, learn how to use linux (or any unix OS) and maybe learn to set up your own server, cuz there's always gonna be a need for server admin peeps (and people who know unix)


But that's just me, if you think you can do it, go for it!

TempestSabre

Its not sarcasm, just slight amusement at your avoidence of the fact that no one is telling you its a great career move. Just go for it, theres lots of web jobs are advertised. You'll need a tougher skin working in the creative arena.

http://www.creativeireland.com/jobdesk/pages/jobs_offered/web/index.shtml

http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=9472_18&SERVICE=CRITERIUMBROWSE&TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_BROWSE.HTM&ROW=26&BACK=TEMPLATE%3DWWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM
http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=9472_18&SERVICE=CRITERIUMBROWSE&TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_BROWSE.HTM&ROW=46&BACK=TEMPLATE%3DWWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM
http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=9472_18&SERVICE=CRITERIUMBROWSE&TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_BROWSE.HTM&ROW=71&BACK=TEMPLATE%3DWWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM
http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=9472_18&SERVICE=CRITERIUMBROWSE&TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_BROWSE.HTM&ROW=102&BACK=TEMPLATE%3DWWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM
http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=9472_18&SERVICE=CRITERIUMBROWSE&TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_BROWSE.HTM&ROW=9&BACK=TEMPLATE%3DWWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM

http://www.creativeireland.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=20

Flat

aye there does seem to be a lot of people recommending not to look at this as a career option, but I would like to get some basic web development skills, cand do any harm

already got the html basics down

seems to be some viable entry level jobs from those links you supplied Tempest and most of the feedback is you can learn these languages without attending a college course and forking out mega bucks...

gonna give the html a bash and then look at OS programming etc Joe, apparently you need some server prog experience to run more complex websites and for deployment etc... apache and ISS were mentioned

I dunno seems to be a lot of doom and gloom about web development / design on this thread but from what I can see there are jobs with companies and opportunities to do nixers

another thought is taking mnc web development skills to emerging economies like poland and china...