The bull in Dartmouth Sq

thebaz

Strange goings on in the Dartmouth Sq. Dublin 4/6, the Bull O'Gara bought a field for 8 grand , in this leafy suburb of Ranelagh, earlier this year . My question is why would anyone sell a field in the heartland of Dublin for under 10 grand ? (its current value is just short of 200 mill) It is actually a lovely square , and to threaten to turn it into a halting site , is a display of greed , shocking even in this day and age . Yes all the residents in this square are probably multi millionaires , but something is rotten !

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1682807&issue_id=14605

kippy

The land would be worth a hell of a lot more could you build on it, however it is not possible to get planning to build on it, hence the value.

stovelid

I think that the muppet is just trying to wheedle a larger amount of money out of the corpo for the CPO.

Wishbone Ash

There's an extensive thread about this already but I can't remember in which forum!

John Mason

kippy wrote:

The land would be worth a hell of a lot more could you build on it, however it is not possible to get planning to build on it, hence the value.

yeah, it has been zoned recreational only - you will never get planning permission on it, so there in the eyes of developers its worthless

Terry

could you copy and paste the article, please?
it's subscription.

connundrum

The Field 2: A story of money and car parks directed by and starring Noel 'Bull' O'Gara

AT first he wanted an overground car park, then he suggested a Traveller's halting site and now businessman Noel O'Gara is proposing a five-storey shelter for battered wives in Dublin's Dartmouth Square.

And although residents in the leafy suburb of Ranelagh are furious at the audacity of the man, he says either the council lets him develop the land as he sees fit, or pays him to get out.

Located in one of the more affluent suburbs of the city, where properties regularly fetch over €2m, the row between well-heeled residents and 62-year-old Mr O'Gara took a new twist yesterday when Dublin City Council sought a High Court injunction to stop him using the two-acre park for car parking.

Mr O'Gara - who bought the property earlier this year for less than €8,500, despite his valuers telling him it was worth about €175m - is convinced he should be allowed use the land as he sees fit. "I want to develop an underground car park, but I'm prepared to donate some of the land to Dublin City Council, provided they build a gym and a creche in the corner," he told the Irish Independent. "They will also have to build a battered wives shelter." He bought the park earlier this year from the Darley family, who built the square in the late 1890s, after a lease held by the council expired and it failed to move on the land.

A small crowd of mainly elderly residents gathered at the park from early yesterday morning to stop cars from entering and using the facilities.

And one stage, a protester who was attempting to stop Mr O'Gara's car from entering the park was forced to clamber over the roof to avoid the vehicle.

It's clear to them what his motives are - money.

An Bord Pleanala are due to make a decision by the end of the month as to whether Dublin City Council will be permitted to take ownership of the park under a Compulsory Purchase Order.

A decision is likely to come down on the side of the council, and the only question remaining will be how much the present owner should receive.

Even though it has been used as a public park since the 1950s, by using it as car park - even though it is not permitted - he could argue that the land is valuable to him.

Professor Kevin B Nowlan, who lives on Dartmouth Square, said that residents would not allow their open space to be turned into a commercial enterprise.

"He's hoping to up the ante, it's all about money." Director of An Taisce and local resident, Gavin Harte, said: "He sees this as a field," he said. "Our argument is that the mindset of Mr O'Gara means there's no social value to anything, it's what can be squeezed from it."

"I rent here and for me this is a public park."

Paul Melia

stovelid

AT first he wanted an overground car park, then he suggested a Traveller's halting site and now businessman Noel O'Gara is proposing a five-storey shelter for battered wives in Dublin's Dartmouth Square.

And although residents in the leafy suburb of Ranelagh are furious at the audacity of the man, he says either the council lets him develop the land as he sees fit, or pays him to get out.

Located in one of the more affluent suburbs of the city, where properties regularly fetch over €2m, the row between well-heeled residents and 62-year-old Mr O'Gara took a new twist yesterday when Dublin City Council sought a High Court injunction to stop him using the two-acre park for car parking.

Mr O'Gara - who bought the property earlier this year for less than €8,500, despite his valuers telling him it was worth about €175m - is convinced he should be allowed use the land as he sees fit. "I want to develop an underground car park, but I'm prepared to donate some of the land to Dublin City Council, provided they build a gym and a creche in the corner," he told the Irish Independent. "They will also have to build a battered wives shelter." He bought the park earlier this year from the Darley family, who built the square in the late 1890s, after a lease held by the council expired and it failed to move on the land.

A small crowd of mainly elderly residents gathered at the park from early yesterday morning to stop cars from entering and using the facilities.

And one stage, a protester who was attempting to stop Mr O'Gara's car from entering the park was forced to clamber over the roof to avoid the vehicle.

It's clear to them what his motives are - money.

An Bord Pleanala are due to make a decision by the end of the month as to whether Dublin City Council will be permitted to take ownership of the park under a Compulsory Purchase Order.

A decision is likely to come down on the side of the council, and the only question remaining will be how much the present owner should receive.

Even though it has been used as a public park since the 1950s, by using it as car park - even though it is not permitted - he could argue that the land is valuable to him.

Professor Kevin B Nowlan, who lives on Dartmouth Square, said that residents would not allow their open space to be turned into a commercial enterprise.

"He's hoping to up the ante, it's all about money." Director of An Taisce and local resident, Gavin Harte, said: "He sees this as a field," he said. "Our argument is that the mindset of Mr O'Gara means there's no social value to anything, it's what can be squeezed from it."

"I rent here and for me this is a public park."

stovelid

Apologies connundrum..

Trinity

LOL - too late!


subscription to unison is free BTW

Terry

so basically nothing has happened yet and this is just a storm in a tea cup?

Terry

Trinity1 wrote:

LOL - too late!


subscription to unison is free BTW

i know it's free, but i can't remember my password and i'm too lazy to look for it.

godtabh

I wonder how many times this is going to be posted!

I thought that they only way to get something rezoned you had to get the council to vote on it i.e what happened in Adamstown?

The C.P.O takes the present use of the land into account and hence your man gets sh!t all out off it. If the lands are rezoned thats a total different story but I dont think there is any chance of this to happen.

As the piece says he is just trying to make quick money. Hope he gets nothing out of it

connundrum

julep wrote:

so basically nothing has happened yet and this is just a storm in a tea cup?

Ching!

The council will probably slap a compulsory purchasing order on him and offer €11,000. Thats what I'd do anyways

biko

Dublin forum tbh

scojones

My god julep, you are a lazy bee!

stovelid

Like you care, bull, like you care...

connundrum wrote:

"They will also have to build a battered wives shelter."

The corpo should play hard ball with the cnut and give him what he paid for it.

Mrs_Doyle

julep wrote:

so basically nothing has happened yet and this is just a storm in a tea cup?

Did something mention tea????? Anyone for a cuppa?:p

I would imagine that the state will buy it back from him, for a fairly hefty profit, but no where near the 300mil mark.

gonk

I have absolutely no sympathy for either the residents of Dartmouth Square or Dublin City Council in this matter. As I understand it, the Council could have bought it from the Darley family at the same minuscule price Mr O'Gara paid but procrastinated until the Darleys lost patience. Likewise, surely the residents of the Square could have come up with €8,000 between them to buy it for their common use.

Mr O'Gara made a good business deal and the council and residents are whinging because they expected to get something for nothing and have been disappointed.

There was a similar situation in Belgrave Square in Monkstown a few years ago, but there the residents, council and landowner came to a reasonable agreement which everyone was satisified with.

stovelid

I seem to remember that the residents actually had to pay quite a bit to buy the square back. Much more than the speculator acquired them for in the first place. How you feel about this depends on your point of view but I think its disgusting - council incompetence or not - that somebody can snap up a square or park and then try and ransom it back. O Gara definitely has this scenario in mind.

gonk wrote:

There was a similar situation in Belgrave Square in Monkstown a few years ago, but there the residents, council and landowner came to a reasonable agreement which everyone was satisified with.

Miguel_Sanchez

julep wrote:

so basically nothing has happened yet and this is just a storm in a tea cup?

Well he's locked the square so none of the residents can use it, and on Monday he attempted to use it as a carpark. So somthing has happened.

5starpool

He is a prize tw@t from seeing and hearing his interviews. He should have the land taken off him for nothing, and then put in jail for being a public nuisance.

gonk

stovelid wrote:

I seem to remember that the residents actually had to pay quite a bit to buy the square back. Much more than the speculator acquired them for in the first place. How you feel about this depends on your point of view but I think its disgusting - council incompetence or not - that somebody can snap up a square or park and then try and ransom it back. O Gara definitely has this scenario in mind.

Like I said, a reasonable agreement. It was the landowner's property after all - why should he part with it for less than its market value? Any attempt to force him to do so would be unconstitutional, and if he turned a profit on it, good luck to him. The council and residents just assumed they had rights which in Dartmouth Square they are finding out the hard way they don't.

thebaz

he seams a very honourable and well intentioned citizen , to be so caring for those less fortunate , such as battered wives and travellers !!
or maybe this is just low level greed or what could be called blackmail !!

godtabh

Its worht €10k. Give him €10k and be done with it

ciaran76

5starpool wrote:

He is a prize tw@t from seeing and hearing his interviews. He should have the land taken off him for nothing, and then put in jail for being a public nuisance.

Lots of twats in Ireland but you don't see everyone going around taking the land off them because of that !

Mad Finn

kearnsr wrote:

wonder how many times this is going to be posted!

I can find only one other thread on this topic, in the Politics forum. Not bad for something that is actually a larger issue than the Dartmouth Square residents.

gonk wrote:

Like I said, a reasonable agreement. It was the landowner's property after all - why should he part with it for less than its market value? Any attempt to force him to do so would be unconstitutional, and if he turned a profit on it, good luck to him. The council and residents just assumed they had rights which in Dartmouth Square they are finding out the hard way they don't.

This was/is a public square accessible by everybody, not just the Dartmouth Square residents. The issue isn't which private owner should have exclusive access to this land. The issue is that a space that was open to the general public during the hours of daylight has been snapped up by some grotty speculator who wants, out of pure spite, to threaten to ruin a beautiful amenity for his own personal gain.

Don't feel too sorry for O'Gara. It's not as if he's being turfed out of his residence that he has slaved to build up for years, despite his claims to be following in the footsteps of Michael Davitt.

He is a businessman who made a commercial investment for his own profit. Nothing wrong with that, but as any businessman will tell you, such investments carry a degree of risk. He reckons the price he should get should reflect the development potential of a piece of land that size that close to Dublin.

The Council, the residents, other concerned citizens and yesterday An Bord Pleanala have told him that the development potential of that site is zero so the price he should get for the CPO should reflect that. That's the risk he took; that opposition to his scheme would be intense enough to stymie it.

The idea that a landowner can do anything they like with their land without any regard for those who live on or near it is something that went out of favour in the 19th century.

By all means pay him the going rate for a non-commercial piece of open space.

10-12 grand should do it. That would be a sizeable percentage return a year after making the investment.

Mad Finn

gonk wrote:

I have absolutely no sympathy for either the residents of Dartmouth Square or Dublin City Council in this matter.

There was a similar situation in Belgrave Square in Monkstown a few years ago, but there the residents, council and landowner came to a reasonable agreement which everyone was satisified with.

This is not just about the residents of Dartmouth Square. That square was publicly accessible by anybody during the hours of daylight. I am not a resident (I live about 2ks away) but I work nearby and it is a lovely place to walk through during lunchtime or just to sit in and read the paper on a nice day.

What happened with Belgrave Square in Monkstown? Is that just accessible to the residents or can anybody go in? The worst possible scenario, to my mind, is that Dartmouth square would become a private playground for the residents. TBH I don't think they want that either.

People who live in inner city Dublin are crying out for open space. We need more of it as a public amenity, funded as necessary by the public purse. The answer is not to privatise everything and leave it in the hands of avaricious speculators.

Cities are for living in; they are not just investment sites to be raped for cash. There are sports clubs in the area turning kids away because the facilities are being so over used. And with plans for even more high density housing that situation is going to get worse, not better.

Time for the good residents of Dublin to fight back against the speculators for the general public good.

stovelid

Also the "businessman coming to a reasonable aggreeent" case doesn't apply here.

If somebody acquires a piece of land or property and sells it on for an inflated market price, whatever.

What is happening here is that the gobsh8Te bought land at market value and has little or no chance of ever gaining planning permission for it. To this end, the corpo and bord pleanala have already stated that they envisage it remaining as a community resource (i.e. park). Do you honestly think the Darleys would have sold the land to O Gara for a couple of grand if they could have got millions for it? Wise up.

What is happening here if that O Gara is using stupid and morally distasteful publicity stunts (battered wife refuge my f*ckin hole) to try and force the corpo or the residents to give him 175 million quid for a piece of land that on one hand is practically worthless (in terms of property speculation) and subjectively very very valuable (as a public resource).

The man is a boil on the ar*e of the city and could only have such a brass neck in a gombeen culture like ours.

The neo-PD bleating about him having the right to profit from property speculation is misinformed and daft.

Like I said, if somebody acquired a piece of land or property and sells it on for an inflated market price, whatever. It's thier land and people want the land enough to buy it.

This is a different case entirely.

Mad Finn

Great to see that there's some more people getting downright angry about this. And giving the lie to the stereotype that everybody who lives in D4 or D6 is a money-grabbing speculative pantywaist that doesn't care what happens to the area as long as they can make a quick buck and head off down the country to some palatial pile in Westmeath.

Look at what the people of Monaghan did yesterday when they wanted to make a point to a visiting minister about closing their hospital. Fifteen thousand of them turned up to exprress their opinion.

I'm not saying D4/D6 people should become like Monaghan people (I mean loike, perish the thawwt) but you've got to admire their publicly spirited balls much more than Mr O'Gara's self-deluded hubris.

Femelade

where is Dartmouth Sq?

Mad Finn

Just south of the canal, on the stretch between Leeson St and Ranelagh.

In Dublin.

Femelade

oh right...so this thread should be in the DUBLIN forum then....
come on Ruu, you're killing me here...

Ruu_Old

Report it if it needs to be moved, I'm not here 24hrs a day. Help us, help you, Femmy.
Mods feel free to move it back to me if you wish.

Mad Finn

Well I can see why you've moved it but I would respectfully say that this is a general issue of wider importance than can be accomodated on a Dublin only forum.

As I've said ad nauseum, this issue is not just about the residents of Dartmouth Square and the solution to it should not just look after their interests, although we can acknowledge that they are centrally involved.

It's about the value of free space as an amenity and how it should be acquired and allocated. Granted, this is more of an issue in Dublin, as the nation's capital, and most densely populated city. But as property prices start to bite in places like Galway, Limerick and even Cork the chances of any available green space being grabbed by speculators for their own aggrandisement at the expense of the local environment will rise accordingly.

There is nothing worse than miles and miles of building and streets with no available space for respite. Concrete jungles are terrible places. Most well designed cities tend to be liberally populated with parks, open spaces and other amenities on which it is forbidden to build.

London for example has loads of Commons and parks which are there for the local populace to enjoy. Most old European cities are designed around piazzas and plazas and the idea of some muck savage grabbing them to build condominiums on them would be anathema.

Dublin is particularly badly served in this regard, largely because of the corruption of our planning regime which resulted in a former minister for justice going to jail. Tallaght is just miles and miles of housing estates with few local shops or amenities like pubs, football pitches, parks etc. What green space there is seems to be a dumping ground for burned out cars. This is not meant to be snobby; it's just a valid observation.

Other areas in North Dublin are similarly deprived. Loads of streets; no parks or gardens. Once a piece of land gets built up--that's it. It becomes somebody's house or business. To turn it back into green space you have to buy them out at house-price rates. So it's vital to keep what open space we have, particularly in city centres and keep it accessible to all.

If every piece of green space is to be treated as a development site, there won't be a playground, football pitch or patch of grass left in our cities. And the poorest areas will suffer the most.

And this will quickly become a problem outside of Dublin.It could even become a problem in Cork. And then we'll see the chips on the shoulders come tumbling down and suffocating us.

comer_97

I take offense at your remarks about Tallaght. Tallaght was badly planned, that is a fact and the building that is going on isn't exactly making things worse.

But having lived in Tallaght and lived within a 5 minute walk of 2 parks, and within 30 minutes walk of 4 or 5 more, having trained for marathons in a lot of greenspace in Tallaght.


Tallaght was badly planned but there is no shortage of parks and football pitches etc.

Mad Finn

comer_97 wrote:

I take offense at your remarks about Tallaght. Tallaght was badly planned, that is a fact and the building that is going on isn't exactly making things worse.

But having lived in Tallaght and lived within a 5 minute walk of 2 parks, and within 30 minutes walk of 4 or 5 more, having trained for marathons in a lot of greenspace in Tallaght.

Tallaght was badly planned but there is no shortage of parks and football pitches etc.

Well I'm glad to hear it and I wasn't having a go at anything other than the bad planning. I will be the first to admit I know little about Tallaght as I live nowhere near it. My impression, from pictures etc, is that it is just mile after mile of housing estate with few amenities.

Fair play to you if you've got 'em.

Even more if you had to fight to get 'em.

Miguel_Sanchez

Did anyone hear the interview the guy at the centre of this whole thing did with Matt Cooper about two weeks back?

He claims that he's had four properties taken off him by compulsory purhcase. This seems quite strange to me, what are the odds?

Also in the middle of the interview he started talking about how he knew who the real Yorkshire Ripper is and where he lives and how the guy in prison in England was only a copy-cat who was not responsible for all the murders.

He's a strange guy.

Mad Finn

Jeff_Lebowski wrote:

Did anyone hear the interview the guy at the centre of this whole thing did with Matt Cooper about two weeks back?

He claims that he's had four properties taken off him by compulsory purhcase. This seems quite strange to me, what are the odds?

Also in the middle of the interview he started talking about how he knew who the real Yorkshire Ripper is and where he lives and how the guy in prison in England was only a copy-cat who was not responsible for all the murders.

He's a strange guy.

Strange? He's a loony tunes. But that doesn't mean he's a fool. He's deadly serious about screwing DoCiCo out of as much cash as possible and he doesn't care who he upsets to do it. He has tried to position himself as the little guy taking on the wealthy pampered citizens of Dartmouth Square when in fact he is wealthier than most if not all of them. (And not all people living in that area are wealthy. There was a time not so long ago when that area was run down and considered a bad investment property wise. Believe it or not)

As for his Ripper fixation. He has been at that for years. Some unkind people might even say this is all part of a publicity campaign for a book he has written on the subject (published privately by himself, no self-respecting publisher would touch it) in which he claims the Real Ripper was a former employee of his.

You can read all about it here if you must. BTW click on the Author tab and then the My Story tab to see a picture of the palatial pile Mr O'Gara lives in before you start having any sympathies for the 'little guy'.

As for his compulsory purchases, which he says were never honoured by Dublin City Council. That should be a separate issue. If the council genuinely owes him money there are more effective ways of redeeming it than pissing off an entire neighbourhood. And good luck to him if that's the case.

But take caution: he is a known ground rent speculator. In other words, he buys up ground rents from old estates and then approaches the owners of houses on those lands to buy out the lease.

As I understand it, if you own a house you have a legal right to purchase the ground lease back from the landowner. But many of these ground rents are nominal. Less than 100 euro a year. So many householders just pay the old ground rents without batting an eyelid. Until the likes of Mr O'Gara come along and say 'I'm the new lease holder. Buy me out for a few grand or I can put up the lease significantly when it comes to renewal time' So he invites 'compulsory purchases' of what he owns.

This is all perfectly legal, of course. Just a bit ruthless. And not the typical actions of a 'little guy'.

Google Noel O'Gara and Ground rent and you'll find some interesting stuff.