Undertaking on the motorway?

cb750

Stuck behind a fool for about 4 miles on the M50 last Sunday. She ( no offence she just happened to be a she ) insisted on travelling at 119kph along the overtaking lane when the inside lane was empty :eek:

How long do I wait before I undertake up the inside ?
What do I do about the idiot in the **WW**** Mitsubishi pick-up who squeezes between me and the fool, because I'd left a big enough gap?:mad:

I was so mad I had to pull over at the end of the motorway, beyond Bray, have a smoke and cool down.

All the way to Arklow and back not a Garda in sight and they wonder how people get killed on the roads?

Patrick
Sorry about the rant but it's better than putting my lock and chain through a Mitsubishi window

MunsterCycling

Why wait at all??? Its one of the joys of being on a bike that if the cager is asleep then let them at it and just get the pass done and be finished with it.


MC

ciasto

Well I usually indicate right, then wait and see if they move out of the way. It works on track days and the autobans.

What you find is that they either don't see you as they are not looking in their mirrors or think that this is the "Fast Lane" and they have a right to be there.

I dont think people know what the outside lane is for, and you can't blame them cause we got a joke of a driving licence test.

I have a friend who did his bike test and lost the guy who was following him in the car. As a result he passed and the tester didn't see him for most of the test.

numorouno

id beep the sh1t out the driver in front of me.not make any hand movements or anything.just beep and beep and beep and beep. they shouldnt be there and there is penalty points there for driving in the overtaking lane continously i think. its not agressive road behaviour.they might finally get the message....or at least get out of your way anyhow!could make a statement to Gardai and get her prosecuted for driving without due care or attention!

madrab

yeah, i would usually give them a flash of the high beams & see if that wakes em up, if not i will just undertake them

i f*ckin hate that no one is able to drive correctly on a motorway overhere

Drax

My current tactic is to count to 10, if they dont move over then a very swift undertake but quite close to the left lane edge. This give me more time to react if they decide to do something stupid. Occasionally I will flash them if my patience lasts longer than 10 seconds. I have extra lights fitted on the bike which I have wired up to the passing switch. If they dont see the lights, I will assume they are completely blind. Also sitting on a 129db Stebel horn for a few seconds has been known to shift them in to the other lane Sometimes I also make a finger gesture pointing to the lane I am in a feeble attempt to tell them what lane they should be in ....!

I dont like undertaking. If I am in the cage I try and avoid it.

madrab

Drax wrote:

Sometimes I also make a finger gesture pointing to the lane I am in a feeble attempt to tell them what lane they should be in ....!

is the lane above you

cb750

Why wait at all??? Its one of the joys of being on a bike

Ah yes but do 2 wrongs make a right?
I know by bike has the power to zip up the inside but I still think it's wrong and I'd prefer not to, maybe it's a sign of getting old

Patrick

MooseJam

Was driving down the M1 yesterday, nice road, on the fast lane doing 160 K when I got undertaken very very closely by a bike who then promptly accelerated to at least 250.

MunsterCycling

cb750 wrote:

Ah yes but do 2 wrongs make a right?
I know by bike has the power to zip up the inside but I still think it's wrong and I'd prefer not to, maybe it's a sign of getting old

Patrick

Agree with you that its not correct to do it but sometimes its safer to get away from loons that don't know what lane they are supposed to be in. And yes its a sign of getting old

Hotblack Desiato

MooseJam wrote:

Was driving down the M1 yesterday, nice road, on the fast lane doing 160 K

There is no such thing as a fast lane.
Why weren't you in the left lane?
It's cr@p driving like lane hogging that ruins motorways for everyone.

faceman

Its not illegal to undertake. Yes the fool shouldnt have been in the lane but you would have broke no laws in undertaking. As far as I remember the rules on the road state that you are allowed to undertake if the car travelling in the right lane is travelling slower than you.

Dont flash and honk though as it stirs up road rage and when u do decide to undertake cud trigger them to get smart. remember we're driving bikes not JCB's.

Hotblack Desiato

faceman wrote:

Its not illegal to undertake. Yes the fool shouldnt have been in the lane but you would have broke no laws in undertaking. As far as I remember the rules on the road state that you are allowed to undertake if the car travelling in the right lane is travelling slower than you.

Wrong. You can only pass on the left:

When the vehicle on your right is turning right
When you are about to turn left
When traffic is moving in queues and the queue to your right is moving more slowly. Now, like a lot of things in ROTR, this isn't defined but anything much above stop-start speeds would be pushing it.

faceman

ninja900 wrote:

Wrong. You can only pass on the left:

perhaps my wording is wrong but the OP is not breaking any law if he changes into the left lane to overtake the car in front. (as long as he is not speeding.)

TheNog

cb750 wrote:

She ( no offence she just happened to be a she ) insisted on travelling at 119kph along the overtaking lane when the inside lane was empty :eek:

All the way to Arklow and back not a Garda in sight and they wonder how people get killed on the roads?

my question is why would want to travel over 120kph? was that not the speed limit for the road? u even pointed out that the guards wonder why people get killed on the roads. they know what kills people and part of the problem is speed.
also by reading other posts here, i presume that ur all bikers. u should be even more careful on the roads.

Sizzler

ninja900 wrote:

Wrong. You can only pass on the left:

When the vehicle on your right is turning right
When you are about to turn left
When traffic is moving in queues and the queue to your right is moving more slowly. Now, like a lot of things in ROTR, this isn't defined but anything much above stop-start speeds would be pushing it.

LB.

We live in country with mostly 2 lane motorways dual carriageways so its widely recognised that the outside lane is for overtaking and not a "fast lane", if theres a clown who stays in that lane for a long period and is not driving progressively I dont think you are going to be pulled over for taking the sensible option and passing on the inside lane once who do it in a safe and controlled manner.

kippy

Hmm,
A few things worry me about this thread.
1. The person you were passing should have been in the left lane had she not been overtaking someone (which it appears she wasnt) so, yes, she was in the wrong lane. She was doing the speed limit however and was not driving slowly-but yes she was in the wrong lane.
2-and far more worryingly. 120kph is the speed limit on these roads, and its also the speed limit for motorbikes on these roads. You shouldnt really have needed to overtake her that much. 160kph and 250kph have been mentioned above in relation to other people on their bikes. Do they not realise that such excessive speed, as well as being illegal is also extremely dangerous? Also, I note one person above mentions that they would "point their finger to the inside lane". So you'd be driving your motor bike at 120+ kph with one hand-surly thats not safe? If your front wheel hits a stone or smeall obstruction at that speed you are pretty much toast.


Its no wonder the road deaths are so high with irresponsible attitudes such as some of those shown above.

Kippy

Hotblack Desiato

faceman wrote:

perhaps my wording is wrong but the OP is not breaking any law if he changes into the left lane to overtake the car in front. (as long as he is not speeding.)

Er, changing into the left lane to pass is passing on the left and is illegal. How could passing on the left not be passing on the left?!?!?!

TheNog wrote:

also by reading other posts here, i presume that ur all bikers. u should be even more careful on the roads.

Thanks for the advice I'm sure :rolleyes: this is the bike forum. If you think 'bikes are dangerous' etc. etc. save your keystrokes as we've all heard it all before. The reason this forum was set up was to avoid that sort of pointless carry on. Yes we know on a bike we are more vulnerable than in a car. We choose to ride anyway. Deal.

kippy wrote:

Also, I note one person above mentions that they would "point their finger to the inside lane". So you'd be driving your motor bike at 120+ kph with one hand-surly thats not safe? If your front wheel hits a stone or smeall obstruction at that speed you are pretty much toast.

That's complete rubbish.
If you don't ride a bike yourself then, with the utmost respect, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
What do you think would happen if a rider, at speed, removed BOTH hands from the handlebars? I'll tell you - Nothing.

If I'd never driven a car in my life and started telling people in the Motors forum how to drive (and I mean steering, changing gear etc. not road behaviour) I'd be laughed at, at best. Perhaps posters more familiar with the main Motors forum would bear this in mind when venturing onto the Motorbikes forum. A bit of respect please.

Points taken about irresponsible behaviour of some, but ALL categories of road user suffer from this. Please don't imply that motorcyclists are irresponsible as a group, etc. because of the actions of a few.

kippy

That's complete rubbish.
If you don't ride a bike yourself then, with the utmost respect, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
What do you think would happen if a rider, at speed, removed BOTH hands from the handlebars? I'll tell you - Nothing.

If I'd never driven a car in my life and started telling people in the Motors forum how to drive (and I mean steering, changing gear etc. not road behaviour) I'd be laughed at, at best. Perhaps posters more familiar with the main Motors forum would bear this in mind when venturing onto the Motorbikes forum. A bit of respect please.

Points taken about irresponsible behaviour of some, but ALL categories of road user suffer from this. Please don't imply that motorcyclists are irresponsible as a group, etc. because of the actions of a few.

I have not implied anything about this section of the driving community, I have stated that attitudes of some people-whether they drive a motorbike or not, leave a lot to be desired. I would say the same thing in the motors forum had someone condoned excessive speed.
I didnt say at any point that removing one hand from the steering of a motorbike will cause an accident, I said that doing so, while at the same time hitting a small obstruction in the road, driving at that speed leaves you with no chance of keeping control of the bike. I believe a motor bike is far more susceptible to this since the steering is far less "taught" than a car. I believe both hands, where possible, should be on the steering wheel at all times, more so in the case of a motorbike.
I dont class myself as an expert on motors, or motorbikes. An this whole, "Them and US" attitude adopted by some in both forums does not help anything.

art

I had an occasion some months back where I was on the road out to Maynooth on a nice warm day, rubber all sticky and road as dry as the proverbial bone, having gotten well away from that mess at Liffey Valley I seemed like the only person on the road. It could well be alleged, at that point, that I was no longer within the speed limit but, all things considered, I was definitely not driving at maniac speeds or anything like...

I eventually come up behind two cars, one on the inside lane doing about 50 and one on the outside lane, just a bit ahead, on the outside lane. Also doing about 50. So I go into the over-taking lane and pass the first car and then come up behind the second car .... he's still there. I wait a bit and consider my mirrors and decide there's **** all stopping this chap getting into the left lane so I flash him. Wait about a minute and nothing so flash him again. At this stage the guy in the left lane has fallen much more behind so I let impatience get the better of me and, indicate, lifesaver, etc etc move into the left lane, accelerate ... and the steaming whore in the car immediately switches into my left lane, bascially while I'm still in it.

Fortunately I've a big engined bike and could just power on out away from him but moments like that just make you want to reinact scenes from Terminator and have some massive gun strapped down the side of the bike that you can just pull out and start, with only one hand on the handlebars mind, blowing the **** out of the twat's windscreen!

Krusty_Clown

kippy wrote:

I believe both hands, where possible, should be on the steering wheel at all times, more so in the case of a motorbike.

How do you change gears? Tune in your radio? Smack the kids? Send text messages on your mobile phone? Fasten your seatbelt when approaching checkpoints? Adjust hair and makeup? Do the crossword?

Joking aside, removing one of your hands from the handlebars at times is absolutely necessary. Hand signals on a bike can be absolutely critical to safe road use, and are in fact specifically called out in the 2006 draft of the rules of the road (a document which many viewers to this thread could do with reviewing - draft available here)

2006 Draft of ROR wrote:

If your machine is fitted with effective indicators and a brake light, you should use these, but in circumstances where they are not clearly visible to other road users, you should give clear hand signals as well.

Additionally, it is a fixed charge offence to fail to...[give appropriate signals by use of indicator or specified hand signals when intending to slow down, stop or change course].

Kippy wrote:

...hitting a small obstruction in the road, driving at that speed leaves you with no chance of keeping control of the bike

???? You see Kippy, the only thing that creates an US and THEM attitude is when people make posts on subjects they know very little about, using tones that suggest that they are subject matter experts.

Would you also make posts on the Scuba Diving forum handing out safe-diving tips, if you had never gone scuba diving?

Krusty (motorcyclist and car driver).

kippy

So you are telling me, that driving a moter cycle at 120kph with one hand is entirely safe, and hitting a small object in the road at this speed while driving with one hand is not going to be a highly dangerous event or at least a more dangerous even than if you were using both hands?

Granted there are rules in place for use of hand signals, although I doubt any of these were intended to be used at 120kph-as you pointed out yourself most are for instances when you are indicating or moving in slow traffic.
Using hand signals to point out to another road user that they should move lanes at 120kph on a 2 wheeled vehicle, in my opinion is a touch on the dangerous side.
You dont have to be a subject matter expert on motor bikes to realise that you have less control of a bike doing 120 KPH using one hand to steer than at 120KPH with both hands and this is what I am trying to point out. You also dont have to be an expert on motor bikes to realise that driving at 160/250 kph is both illegal and a bigger danger to the rider and other road users.
Frankly, I dont see what relevance me not having driven a bike before has to do with either of these observations.
Kippy

Hotblack Desiato

kippy wrote:

I would say the same thing in the motors forum had someone condoned excessive speed.

Did you see anyone in this thread condoning excessive speed?

I said that doing so, while at the same time hitting a small obstruction in the road, driving at that speed leaves you with no chance of keeping control of the bike.

Yes, you did say this, and it is complete rubbish.

I dont class myself as an expert on motors, or motorbikes.

Nonetheless you feel qualified to give out riding technique tips?!?

This IMHO is a LARGE part of the problem with motoring in this country, people spend more time picking up 'pub talk motoring tips' which are myths more often than not, instead of taking lessons with a qualified instructor, reading ROTR etc.

Thanks for sharing and all, but I think I'll stick to the ROTR/Motorcycle Roadcraft/My ROSPA-Diploma holding instructor for advice.

Hotblack Desiato

kippy wrote:

You dont have to be a subject matter expert on motor bikes to realise that you have less control of a bike doing 120 KPH using one hand to steer than at 120KPH with both hands and this is what I am trying to point out.

One of the guys who instructs at track days at Mondello ONLY HAS ONE ARM ffs. That's on the track where the rider must change direction more quickly and accurately than on the road (especially a straight motorway!)
I've ridden on the roads in his company too and he's one of the smoothest and safest road riders I've seen.[/quote]

Frankly, I dont see what relevance me not having driven a bike before has to do with either of these observations.

:rolleyes:
It's like getting concert violin playing tips from the tone-deaf. That's the kindest way I can put it right now. Perhaps you can't see why this is extremely annoying?

kippy

There is a post above about a guy doing 160KPH-I didnt exactly see anyone bar one poster knowck him back for speeding.
The OP also, mentions that the lady was doing 119KPH, only one person mentioned that she wouldnt really have any reason to be going much faster seeing as this was the legal limit. Not exactly condoning excessive speed, but not exactly mentioning it in a grim light either.

If you can find a motorbike instructor that will tell you it is as safe driving with one hand on the handlebars as with two when doing 120KPH, then I dont think you should be listening to anything they say-cos this is absolute rubbish.
Fair play to the guy with one arm instructing, more power to him, but I believe he would be at a distinct disadvantage were he to hit something in the road when driving along at 120KPH.

Again, I will say, I have as much right as anyone else to make the comments I am making, as from my point of view they are logical, especially the hands on handlebars one.


I dont mean to insult anyone and I only have overall road safety in mind in any of my comments, I am not trying to instruct anyone, just making them think about the actions that they partake in on a daily basis.
At 120KPH, there are rarely any second chances, especially on a bike.

Hotblack Desiato

kippy wrote:

Again, I will say, I have as much right as anyone else to make the comments I am making, as from my point of view they are logical, especially the hands on handlebars one.

You quite simply do not have a clue what you're talking about. As has been pointed out to you repeatedly. What you are saying is based upon supposition and assumption and is incorrect.

The Motorbikes forum was set up in the first place to avoid exactly this sort of unwelcome interference in bike threads by people with no clue about bikes. Do you honestly think that people actually riding bikes should be listening to comments like yours from someone who doesn't have the first idea how a bike is steered or controlled?

Did you know that the straight-line stability of a bike actually improves with speed?
Did you know that you don't steer a bike at speed, you counter-steer it?
Do you have any idea what that is?
Do you know how much (or rather, how little) the bars need to be turned at speed to have complete control?

It's not turning a steering wheel with one hand ffs.

Now please, for your sake and ours, stick to talking about things you either have knowledge about, or are willing to listen and learn about.

Hotblack Desiato

kippy wrote:

I am not trying to instruct anyone, just making them think about the actions that they partake in on a daily basis.
At 120KPH, there are rarely any second chances, especially on a bike.

Patronising in the extreme.
Do you think we need to be told that motorcycling is risky? WE KNOW.
It's the car drivers who think they're immortal who are the biggest hazard to us.

bushy...

kippy wrote:

So you are telling me, that driving a moter cycle at 120kph with .......................................
Frankly, I dont see what relevance me not having driven a bike before has to do with either of these observations.
Kippy

It would be hard for you to know then but because of geometry etc etc bikes mostly "want" to travel in straight lines .Holding the bars with the grip of doom with everything all tensed up usually makes them unstable.

kippy

I amnt saying anything about steering getting better or worse at speed.

I am saying.
ONE HAND ON HANDLEBAR-HIT POTHOLE OR OTHER HAZARD IN ROAD AT 120 KPH = LESS CHANCE OF CONTROLLING THE BIKE THAN IF HITTING SAME HAZARD AT SAME SPEED BUT WITH BOTH HANDS ON HANDLEBARS

Can anyone not see this point?

Drax

kippy wrote:

ONE HAND ON HANDLEBAR-HIT POTHOLE OR OTHER HAZARD IN ROAD AT 120 KPH = LESS CHANCE OF CONTROLLING THE BIKE THAN IF HITTING SAME HAZARD AT SAME SPEED BUT WITH BOTH HANDS ON HANDLEBARS
Can anyone not see this point?

Yes of course we can. The point is, yes, it is obviously dangerous hitting an object at high speed when only one arm is on the handlebar. That is why, as a biker, you develop the skills to anticipate and avoid these types of situations. I would say that being a biker has improved my car driving skills in terms of observation and reaction to things. If you do not ride a bike, you have no place giving advice on this forum. Thats the thing - anybody who doesnt ride a bike, automatically thinks of the dangers...

Drax

art wrote:

but moments like that just make you want to reinact scenes from Terminator and have some massive gun strapped down the side of the bike that you can just pull out and start, with only one hand on the handlebars mind, blowing the **** out of the twat's windscreen!

Class... I can see it now...

...the M1-inator

kippy

I can see there is no point saying anymore, since you are all perfect drivers of your vehicles and do not need to hear any other opinions.
Kippy

faceman

ninja900 wrote:

Patronising in the extreme.
Do you think we need to be told that motorcycling is risky? WE KNOW.
It's the car drivers who think they're immortal who are the biggest hazard to us.

Why is every post you make in every thread so superior to anyone else. Kippy made an observation, and whether right or wrong you dont jump down his throat. If your agressive attitude on boards echoes your attitude on the roads then you are a great ambassador for biking.

Kippy, i hope your experience on this thread doesnt sour your opinion of all bikers and other users of this forum.

faceman

ninja900 wrote:

One of the guys who instructs at track days at Mondello ONLY HAS ONE ARM ffs. That's on the track where the rider must change direction more quickly and accurately than on the road (especially a straight motorway!)
I've ridden on the roads in his company too and he's one of the smoothest and safest road riders I've seen.

whats his name? I can confirm if this is true.

Whether geniune or not, id rather have me 2 arms while biking!

saobh_ie

Re the OP. I used to do Donegal to Dublin alot and I'd always start and mostly end on the M1. Because traffic is generally light I would be in the nearside lane when approaching cars chugging along at 100 to 120 in the overtaking lane. Even if the road ahead of me is clear I would reduce my speed to a safe closing speed, put on my right indicator and move out into the over taking lane behind them.

As I close I move further to the right hand side of the overtaking lane then back to the center and meander along like this, assuming I've observed nobody else behind me who'd be freaked out by this. I move from mirror to mirror in thier car. My indicator remains on. Generally I get out behind them, hit the far right of the lane, the center position and by then most cars and indicating and moving out of the way.

I move past them at a relativally slow speed and then pick up the pace to a safe travelling speed, generally 160kmh. Above the posted speed limit but with the lack of traffic most times on the road thats perfectly acceptable and in many countrys would be the norm.

as regards ninja900s superiority complex, i think your imagining it, its just he's always right and has the info to back it up. he corrects me all the time (okay, once or twice)... actually he just calls me stupid. but...

And riding with one hand on the bars is, as already pointed out, an essential skill because you need to be able to communicate with other road users, whether its pointing out your intentions, harazds in the road or adjusting your visor, fuel tap, crotch, mp3 player or other miscellaneous equipment. It's also useful for communitcating displeasure at another road users conduct.

Hotblack Desiato

faceman wrote:

whats his name? I can confirm if this is true.

No doubt

This cool cat goes by the name of Disco Stu.

cb750

Wow ! I wasn't expecting a reaction like that.
Lots more points raised here.
How many of us ( me included ) stick to the speed limit? :rolleyes:
But 250Kph on a public road is a bit crazy:)
It's not a fast lane and any one who thinks it is, shouldn't be on a motorway.
All bikes are now fitted with "effective indicators and a brake light" so you should rearly have to use hand signels. So 2 hands on the bars otherwise it's a joystick you should be using
Flashing lights and blowing horns only cause stupid people to get mad.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one this sort of thing happens to.

Patrick
PS and yes I am getting old

Hotblack Desiato

kippy wrote:

I can see there is no point saying anymore, since you are all perfect drivers of your vehicles and do not need to hear any other opinions.
Kippy

Nobody is a perfect driver and the ones who think they are are the ones to watch out for!

Although I disagree with the issue you raised, I think I went too far in my criticisms. Apologies for any offence caused. Bad day

kippy

Nobody is a perfect driver and the ones who think they are are the ones to watch out for!

Although I disagree with the issue you raised, I think I went too far in my criticisms. Apologies for any offence caused. Bad day

Fair enough.
No problem.
Kippy

saobh_ie

cb750 wrote:

All bikes are now fitted with "effective indicators and a brake light" so you should rearly have to use hand signels.

Actually, try throwing a hand signal. It's like your Mose's, the cars just scatter like the red sea. You can be looking to change lanes, see a small gap, indicate, hand signal and suddenly you could put an oil tanker in there.

One of the ocean going ones. =]

Hotblack Desiato

A place I often give a hand signal is the junction of Naas Rd onto Long Mile Rd. Depending on the traffic I might have to change lane twice in quick succession and some drivers like to undertake just at the start of the slip road, when I'm trying to move from the middle lane into the left lane and then into the slip road.
The hand signal makes it less likely that they'll accelerate hard into the gap I'm trying to move into.

art

ninja900 wrote:

A place I often give a hand signal is the junction of Naas Rd onto Long Mile Rd. Depending on the traffic I might have to change lane twice in quick succession and some drivers like to undertake just at the start of the slip road, when I'm trying to move from the middle lane into the left lane and then into the slip road.
The hand signal makes it less likely that they'll accelerate hard into the gap I'm trying to move into.

I have to, daily, turn into a laneway just before a busy intersection - I almost always hand signal as well as indicate to emphasise I'm turning "now" and not at the intersection with everyone else. Also do a fair amount of waving at people when they're being nice and letting me in front of them etc so lots of "one hand on the handlebars" riding for me genarally

faceman

ninja900 wrote:

Nobody is a perfect driver and the ones who think they are are the ones to watch out for!

Although I disagree with the issue you raised, I think I went too far in my criticisms. Apologies for any offence caused. Bad day

fair play dude!

Krusty_Clown

I have often had to use hand signals to try and communicate to some drivers that they need to switch on their lights, when they have forgotten them late at night... That can be a tough one.. What can you do but point at their lights and make ridiculous emu-like actions?

Remember that long thread about motorcyclists not waving to car drivers to say thanks for making room for them? This thread is kind of at odds with this one..
<ducks and runs for cover>

Krusty_Clown

kippy wrote:

So you are telling me, that driving a moter cycle at 120kph with one hand is entirely safe, and hitting a small object in the road at this speed while driving with one hand is not going to be a highly dangerous event or at least a more dangerous even than if you were using both hands?

Granted there are rules in place for use of hand signals, although I doubt any of these were intended to be used at 120kph-as you pointed out yourself most are for instances when you are indicating or moving in slow traffic.
Using hand signals to point out to another road user that they should move lanes at 120kph on a 2 wheeled vehicle, in my opinion is a touch on the dangerous side.
You dont have to be a subject matter expert on motor bikes to realise that you have less control of a bike doing 120 KPH using one hand to steer than at 120KPH with both hands and this is what I am trying to point out. You also dont have to be an expert on motor bikes to realise that driving at 160/250 kph is both illegal and a bigger danger to the rider and other road users.
Frankly, I dont see what relevance me not having driven a bike before has to do with either of these observations.
Kippy

Kippy, I didn't bother responding previously, as you weren't responding to any of the points I was making.. I never mentioned anything about 120+ kms/hr, or 160, or 250, or keeping your hands off the handlebars.. I don't condone any of those things, which is why I pointed some of our readers to the 2006 rules of the road.

I was merely pointing out that some of your statements were incorrect, specifically that hands should be on the handlebards at all times, and that hitting a small obstruction leaves you no chance of keeping control of the bike. If you had some experience of biking you would realise that both of these statements are batantly incorrect. There is a stickied thread at the top of this forum, which points out resources for learning to ride a bike and getting training. Why don't you look them up, do some training, and then we'll alll be a lot more keen to listen about your experiences?

kippy wrote:

...since you are all perfect drivers of your vehicles and do not need to hear any other opinions

I don't beleive I'm a perfect driver and understand my vulnerability, which is why I have done 6 hours of motorcycle training in the last couple of months (I have a full motorcycle and car license for a number of years). How many people do you know who have done additional car driving tuition since passing their tests? How many hours have you done? We know we are vulnerable, which is why we are a lot more likely to undertake training.

Every other day we're presented with reminders, like this one:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054989630

kippy

Krusty,
Fair enough.
Kippy